2007-public-private pay gap was 48%!

ParkRunner

steof1984 wrote: »

Usually those kind of jobs (cleaning,security) are tenured out to a private company.

So they dont get Public Service pay scales.

All public sector pay scales can be found on

www.publicjobs.ie

I think there are scales for nightwatchmen and cleaners but (and i might be wrong open to corresction) i think there for people who have those jobs years and years and are such dying out.

Cleaning and general maintenance is outsourced where I work too, however the contract was not renewed recently for the last crowd and we only have a skeleton staff now working in these areas. Public expenditure cutbacks is inevitably going to lead to further job losses in the private sector as each Dept. is closely looking at every area where cutbacks can be made eg. cleaning, travel costs, training and development etc. Not to mention pay with anyone wanting unpaid leave being given as much leave as they like and the exodus of those over the age of 50.

Gumbo

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

I dont think this is correct. I work for US company and there is no corporate days out, bonuses, free health care, relocation allowances, petrol allowances, various freebies (phone, mobile internet, laptop).. nothing. Maybe somewhere else or it used to be for some high up managers. What we did get recently was 15% layoff's , 10% pay reduction. But you wont hear about 120 people let got from X company because they do it smartly so it doesn't hit headlines. They let go 2 -3 people this week, then 2-3 next week , then 6 next week and all like that.

BTW, not here to bash one or the other side , just to correct possibly wrong perception.

dont worry about it, its the same with the Public Service bashing!
people assume, we get free pensions, earn 50k per year, get official sick leave and only work between 10am and 4pm etc etc

some people seem to tar a whole sector with the same brush.

jimmmy

kceire wrote: »

people assume, we get free pensions, earn 50k per year, .

People getting public service pensions now are getting much more out on average than they ever paid in

Oh , and the average public servant retiring is on much more than 50k just before retirement, as 50 k is the approx average pay in the public service, across 300,000 plus people, from all age groups etc. On retirement do they not get one and a half years salary lump sum and half the grade they were on at retirement , linked to future increases ?

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

People getting public service pensions now are getting much more out on average than they ever paid in

Oh , and the average public servant retiring is on much more than 50k just before retirement, as 50 k is the approx average pay in the public service, across 300,000 plus people, from all age groups etc. On retirement do they not get one and a half years salary lump sum and half the grade they were on at retirement , linked to future increases ?

is it over a week already?

oh well....jimmmy, the use of averages has been derided now on a number of active threads but you continue to ignore it.

the "average public servant" you like so much probably does not exist in reality

ardmacha

This thread is proceeding in the usual way. But for what it is worth.

1. Average are useless, specifics are needed.

2. if the public sector outsources cleaning and saves the taxpayer some money, then the average private sector wage declines and the average public sector wage increases, but this is not an example of waste.

3. the black economy is estimated to be 11% of GNP. Now some of this accrues to public servants it is not usually a consequence of the expenditure of public funds. Much private sector activity is underestimated and it is not clear to what extent these surveys take this into account.

4. Public sector pay rates are in the public domain, those who earn less than these complain loudly and publicly, those who are making more are not so quick to point out the opposite situations, especially if some of their remuneration is unknown to the public and the taxman.

5. given the nature of the benchmarking process the most bolshie got the biggest increases and so probably have the the biggest gap, if one exists. These would be hard to sort out, whereas other less bolshie groups in the PS have much smaller gaps, a gap largely addressed by the pension levy. These are now being cut back while those in the most cushy may not be.

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

oh well....jimmmy, the use of averages has been derided now on a number of active threads but you continue to ignore it.

So you do not accept the figures from your own c.s.o. ( for average public service pay ) as being accurate ? There are enough bloody people employed in ( well , ok, paid by ) the c.s.o., they come up with little enough information ( for example they will not reveal average pension for retired public servants, or at least I cannot find that information ) and you cherry pick / deride the statistics they do come up with !:rolleyes:

jimmmy

ardmacha wrote: »

This thread is proceeding in the usual way. But for what it is worth.

1. Average are useless, specifics are needed.

Average public service pay for 300,000 plus is known, as revealed by the c.s.o. Numerous specific examples of public service overpay in this country have been provided, from a dept of Agriculture vet in Donegal getting paid nearly double compared to a similar vet in Fermanagh , to school teachers , to Gardai etc

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

So you do not accept the figures from your own c.s.o. ( for average public service pay ) as being accurate ? There are enough bloody people employed in ( well , ok, paid by ) the c.s.o., they come up with little enough information ( for example they will not reveal average pension for retired public servants, or at least I cannot find that information ) and you cherry pick / deride the statistics they do come up with !:rolleyes:

I am not deriding their statistics at all jimmmy, :rolleyes:

I am deriding the attempts by the indo and people like yourselves to pretend that the statistics mean something they do not

The CSO have produced stats showing that the average Public sector is X and the average in the private sector is Y

So X is 48% higher than Y


That does not mean that "Public sector workers are paid 48% higher than private sector"
The only way that could be correct is if ALL public service earned X and ALL private sector earned Y


I am a public servant

am i paid 48% more than some private sector workers...yes
am i paid 48% more than some public sector workers...yes

are there private sector workers earning 48% more than me..yes
are there public sector workers earning 48% more than me..yes

are there private sector workers earning 100% (and higher) more than me.yes
are there public sector workers earning 100% (and higher) more than me..yes


these average comparisons mean little in the real world

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Numerous specific examples of public service overpay in this country have been provided,

Read: numerous anecdotes of jimmmy have been provided

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

II am a public servant

Are you supposed to be working while you are posting....you seem to post a lot during the day ?

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Are you supposed to be working while you are posting....you seem to post a lot during the day ?

my private life is my own business jimmmy as is yours

my work patterns have no relevance to the issues at hand

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Are you supposed to be working while you are posting....you seem to post a lot during the day ?

It is right for people to disclose personal interests when discussing matters here. It is not right to take such a disclosure and get personal, either in tone or in content.

Many people post here during what are normal working hours for most people, including yourself, jimmmy. If you feel entitled to scrutinise how others behave on what might be their working time then, in fairness, you should disclose what your obligations are in relation to whatever employment you might have, and open your own behaviour to similar scrutiny.

My time is my own. It's not rented out to anybody.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

My time is my own. It's not rented out to anybody.

Of course your time is your own, because you said you are retired on a public service pension. Other posters who have posted in favour of the public service overpay have sometimes admitted they were posting while at work. Riskymove is of course quite entitled to refuse to say if he is posting while at his public service work or not.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Of course your time is your own, because you said you are retired on a public service pension. Other posters who have posted in favour of the public service overpay have sometimes admitted they were posting while at work. Riskymove is of course quite entitled to refuse to say if he is posting while at his public service work or not.

well let that be the end of such irrelevancies then

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Of course your time is your own, because you said you are retired on a public service pension.

Of course, I might be telling lies.

Other posters who have posted in favour of the public service overpay have sometimes admitted they were posting while at work. Riskymove is of course quite entitled to refuse to say if he is posting while at his public service work or not.

Sometimes you adopt the style of a simpleton in order to duck challenges. But you give yourself away by showing that you can manage clever but mean-spirited innuendo such as that in your last sentence.

In the interests of fairness, as you are prepared to make an issue of how people seem to treat their employment obligations, you should tell us what your own obligations are. I note that you frequently post during what would be for most people normal working time.

hk

Lets have a little clarity here, current rates of public service pay are as a result of benchmarking. For those who d not understand what that is, it iswhen they look at what people in te private sector and public sector do on a day to day basis and then match the pay so public servants are payed similar wages to those in the private sector. During the last benchmarking there were very few increases as the pension benifits of the public service were taken into account and as such current pay into the hand in the public service is less than that of private sector workers to account for pension benifits. There have always been cycles in pay between the public and private sectors and it has only been reciently that public sector pay caught up with private pay, there were few complaints from the public sector then. The public sector relies on professional and graduate level educated workforce, therefor its pay in that respect will be higher than some instances within the private sector. Here is the reality check, pay in this country is high all round due to insane pay levels for unskilled / semi skilled labour in this country for years. Brick layers and JCB drivers being payed more than educated professionals drove up pay all round. The public sector has to pay professionals well because if not you loose quality people to the private sector where conditions can be better, tat is not a method of fostering vfm in the public sector

97i9y3941

Independent.ie
€180,000 each day for 'doing nothing'

1,000 surplus HSE staff still employed as cuts hit children

By Michael Brennan and Fionnan Sheahan
Tuesday July 14 2009

UP to 1,000 surplus HSE staff are still being paid €180,000 a day although they have no work to do.

The staff are costing an estimated €67m a year in salaries at a time when resources are so stretched that crucial health services are being slashed.

Among the HSE staff targeted were around 200 of its middle managers who earn salaries of up to €83,000. Their numbers have increased from just 10 in 2000 to more than 700 now.

The €67m-a-year cost contrasts sharply with the impact of swingeing cuts at Our Lady's Children's Hospital, Crumlin, Dublin.

The hospital has been at the centre of a recent bitter row between management and HSE chief Prof Brendan Drumm.

The issue of children waiting for critical operations has become central to the entire value-for-money public service debate.

Plans to shed the HSE jobs have collapsed.

An early retirement plan has stalled due to a dispute with unions who are concerned about the redeployment of those left behind.

New figures show that just 150 of the HSE's 111,000 staff (0.1pc) have applied for the early retirement scheme, career breaks or shorter working years that were announced in the emergency Budget.

And the latest figures come as it emerged that the An Bord Snip Nua report may now be published within a matter of days. There is a growing anxiety within government to get the controversial report out as fast as possible.

A senior government source said: "If not Wednesday, then Thursday or Friday -- possibly. Once it goes to Cabinet, that's it. It will be presented as this is what the country needs to do and it needs strong government."

Against that background the fact that there has been virtually nothing done to reduce the public service bill takes on a critical relevance.

The HSE's initial plan for 1,000 voluntary redundancies was put on hold earlier this year due to the estimated €300m cost of providing payments for departing staff. The Department of Finance then announced the early retirement, shorter working year and career-break schemes from the emergency Budget last April would be rolled out instead.

But health service unions decided not to co-operate with the scheme in the absence of an agreement on how staff remaining behind would be re-deployed.

Both the HSE and the Department of Health have emphasised that staff must be flexible about taking on new responsibilities because staff who leave under the schemes will not be replaced.

The IMPACT trade union said it wanted a national framework that would put safeguards in place for staff.

"We obviously don't want a situation where someone in south Dublin is told they are being redeployed to Inishowen (in Donegal) because clearly that would be nonsensical and unfair," a spokesman said.

However, IMPACT said it accepted its members would have to work harder and be more flexible.

Fine Gael health spokesman Dr James Reilly that health workers had rights and should not have to make "unreasonable moves".

But there could be no question of extra payments for being redeployed, he said.

Labour health spokeswoman Jan O'Sullivan said there was an urgent need to engage with the unions to get the scheme up and running.

"Hiding behind unions is not good enough. I firmly believe there is a need to take out the layers of management in the HSE as quickly as possible," she said.

- Michael Brennan and Fionnan Sheahan

Riskymove

UP to 1,000 surplus HSE staff are still being paid €180,000 a day although they have no work to do.

another example of the HSE madness!!

It must be tackled immediately

97i9y3941

hse is a black hole anyway,an ordinary business man would even close it down

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

well let that be the end of such irrelevancies then

Is it really irrelevant if you - as a public sector employee - frequently post during normal working hours ? Another public service poster here on boards.ie though he could post numerous posts during the morning while at his day time office p.s. job ! He tried to excuse it by saying it was his tea break, then I pointed out the length of the break ! While I repeat that I think you are of course quite entitled to refuse to say if you are posting while at your work in the public service work or not, I think it would be quite wrong for public servants to spend half the day on internet forums such as this, as that is not what they are being paid to do. Before you enquire about me, my time on the internet is my own and I am a servant to nobody, the public or otherwise.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Is it really irrelevant if you - as a public sector employee - frequently post during normal working hours ?

I have already said your business is your own and I have no interest in it

It is entirely irrelevant to this thread if I post from work, or home or on leave or whatever. It is a thread about the CSO report and its portrayal in the media.

if you want to start a thread in work&jobs and about productivity and employees on the net during biz hours then off you go

sceptre

jimmmy wrote: »

Is it really irrelevant if you - as a public sector employee - frequently post during normal working hours ?

It's irrelevant.

Irrelevant to me as a forum moderator, to you as a forum poster, to the discussion, the thread and to the forum.

Continually coming at people with repeated personal questions is harassment. This is what you're doing. And you've been talked to by me about this sort of issue before.

Last warning, do it again or something similar and you won't be allowed to stay here.

Drumpot

Q: Why does benchmarking seem to be easily justified by the beneficiaries when they are looking for a raise, but when there is talk of benchmarking downwards these very similar arguements for the reduction in salary will not even be awknowledged ? ?

A: Like Taxes, Medical cards, social welfare etc . . Give something to the public and they EXPECT it for nothing. Try to take it away and you get a revolution.

I think that Public servants are only going on Human instinct to fight for whatever you have. I am not defending it, just saying that we in the private sector do likewise.

For me the best way of reducing costs in public service wage bills (aside from cutting waste jobs) is by making their pension defined contributions. This would save our country Billions annually. We could also take the much maligned pensions levy (that didnt go half as far as it should of) away and the majority of public servants that dont really care or understand the value of their pension would know no better. (Odds are that the Unions would educate their members very quickly on their pensions value, its only relevant to the unions when it suits!).

This would be a very good way of avoiding taking money out of peoples pockets (something they love to harp on about so much). It would be interesting if the Politicians included themselves in this pensions act (not a chance) considering the lavish benefits they get from the state at retirement.

I dont blame public servants for being up in arms about getting pay decreases. I would do the same in their shoes, but that wouldnt make me right for ignoring the most glaring fact that the country cannot afford it and that the equivilant in the private sector are taking pay cuts and job losses.

Riskymove

Drumpot wrote: »

Q: Why does benchmarking seem to be easily justified by the beneficiaries when they are looking for a raise, but when there is talk of benchmarking downwards these very similar arguements for the reduction in salary will not even be awknowledged ? ?

A: Like Taxes, Medical cards, social welfare etc . . Give something to the public and they EXPECT it for nothing. Try to take it away and you get a revolution.

I think that Public servants are only going on Human instinct to fight for whatever you have. I am not defending it, just saying that we in the private sector do likewise.

For me the best way of reducing costs in public service wage bills (aside from cutting waste jobs) is by making their pension defined contributions. This would save our country Billions annually. We could also take the much maligned pensions levy (that didnt go half as far as it should of) away and the majority of public servants that dont really care or understand the value of their pension would know no better. (Odds are that the Unions would educate their members very quickly on their pensions value, its only relevant to the unions when it suits!).

This would be a very good way of avoiding taking money out of peoples pockets (something they love to harp on about so much). It would be interesting if the Politicians included themselves in this pensions act (not a chance) considering the lavish benefits they get from the state at retirement.

I am a public servant who never liked benchmarking, I think it was introduced by Bertie to keep people happy (i.e. throw money at it, money = happiness in ireland!)

I realise there will be some sort of pay cut implemented and I also think the change in pensions will come, but probably for new staff, it would be difficult to change half way through someone's career

Drumpot

Riskymove wrote: »

I am a public servant who never liked benchmarking, I think it was introduced by Bertie to keep people happy (i.e. throw money at it, money = happiness in ireland!)

I realise there will be some sort of pay cut implemented and I also think the change in pensions will come, but probably for new staff, it would be difficult to change half way through someone's career

Bertie did it to buy public service votes . . Simple as . .

I wouldnt class all public servants in the same bracket as I believe the vast majority that would follow unions into strike dont really know why they are striking or understand the dynamics behind what the government are proposing (as unions dont educate , they dictate their own agendas and make them their members ones with snippets of facts).

I discussed the legality of changing the pension for existing members and there are definantly legal issues to be considered (as they are part of the terms of employment) but raise the pensions levy to 15%/20% and give all employees the option to opt in or out of the levy (and in turn they would have to setup their own pension like the rest of us). Obviously going forward all new employees are on the normal pension scheme like the rest of us . .

Gumbo

Drumpot wrote: »

Bertie did it to buy public service votes . . Simple as . .

I wouldnt class all public servants in the same bracket as I believe the vast majority that would follow unions into strike dont really know why they are striking or understand the dynamics behind what the government are proposing (as unions dont educate , they dictate their own agendas and make them their members ones with snippets of facts).

I discussed the legality of changing the pension for existing members and there are definantly legal issues to be considered (as they are part of the terms of employment) but raise the pensions levy to 15%/20% and give all employees the option to opt in or out of the levy (and in turn they would have to setup their own pension like the rest of us). Obviously going forward all new employees are on the normal pension scheme like the rest of us . .

thats fair enough, i have always said that if i could opt out of my PS pension i would, as in my particular case and im sure theres 1000's more like me, my payments actually provide enough money to provide me with my pension if i work in the PS for my whole career.

we all pay PRSI and tax, so we all can claim the state pension (which dont forget is deducted from the PS pension)
if you make the pension levy optional then dont forget theres also the pension contributions which will have to be made optional too.
so with my state pension and the €140 per pay pack i pay into the pension scheme i could have nice nest egg saved up myself.

Drumpot

kceire wrote: »

what about the state pension? PS staff contribute to that too with their tax and PRSI just like private sector.
if you scrap the pension levy, fair enough but you would have to scrap the pension contributions too which is on top of the levy.

then PS staff can start their own pension if they feel fit.

Agreed . .

Its certainly not public servants fault that the cost of a public service pension to the state is so much (government should of tackled this years ago). I just think it would be a way of saving billions and not totally forcing public servants to a revolution .

rasper

hk wrote: »

Here is the reality check, pay in this country is high all round due to insane pay levels for unskilled / semi skilled labour in this country for years. Brick layers and JCB drivers being payed more than educated professionals drove up pay all round. The public sector has to pay professionals well because if not you loose quality people to the private sector where conditions can be better, tat is not a method of fostering vfm in the public sector

Sounds very snobby to call bricklaying or even operating a JCB as unskilled or semiskilled just because they are more manual labour, the reason why the PS have raped the taxpayer has nothing to do with the lower paid private sector being over paid , it is down to Unions holding the government to ransom and totally ignored market demands , if the PS could earn more while still working in their family friendly jobs well then they should have been allowed. This is the same line that is used to justify Gerry Ryans, Pat Kennys, Biffos and his mininsters because the private sector were queing up to entice then away.
Compare our PS rates of pay with their colleugues in the UK and EU and then blame the brickies, lovely

irish_bob

rasper wrote: »

Sounds very snobby to call bricklaying or even operating a JCB as unskilled or semiskilled just because they are more manual labour, the reason why the PS have raped the taxpayer has nothing to do with the lower paid private sector being over paid , it is down to Unions holding the government to ransom and totally ignored market demands , if the PS could earn more while still working in their family friendly jobs well then they should have been allowed. This is the same line that is used to justify Gerry Ryans, Pat Kennys, Biffos and his mininsters because the private sector were queing up to entice then away.
Compare our PS rates of pay with their colleugues in the UK and EU and then blame the brickies, lovely

indeed

i was listening to matt coooper earlier this evening , the teachers union leader was waffling on about how it was immoral to allow class sizes to rise due to cuts , the usual WILL SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN , anyway , ed walsh from the university of limerick came on and provided a much needed reality check , quote , perhaps the teachers would like to take a pay cut so as to avoid an increase in class sizes , he then went on to state that irish teachers are 75% higher paid than thier french counterparts and 55% higher paid than teachers in finland

its time people in the private sector saw through the weasel words of teachers and other public sector workers , they care about one thing and one thing only, thier fat salarys , lets end the pretense , only thing worse than being greedy is pretending your not

Sarahjma

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Factor it in then. Although, paying a contribution to pension has been part of private sector employment for a long time, so this "'exclusive' tax" is not really exclusive to the public sector.

.

Public servants pay pension contributions aswell as the pension levy.
In fact my weekly contribution alone is higher than it was when i worked in the private sector, despite the fact my salary is €2000 less. And thats before you factor in the pension levy.

I also pay the Class A PRSI and the same rates of PAYE as I ever did. I am the taxpayer too.

Which should be factored into the equation of making jobs cuts, everyone is stating the obvious, that unemployment would increase, but nobody seems to be stating that the tax take would also reduce. significantly.

Public sector workers must pay pension contributions, which is fair, the same PRSI as everybody else, also fair, and the same taxes too, which again is only fair. The rules were changed well over a decade ago or have we all forgotten so soon?

The state cannot retrospectively change the terms and conditions of their own employment contracts. The State cannot breach its own employment legislation. What would the neighbours think...

I get the statutory minimum of annual leave, same as most everybody else, 20 days plus public holidays. I have to pay health insurance like everybody else. I must provide medical certs to my employer and social welfare if I am sick, the same as everybody else. I do not get flexi time or two hour lunch breaks.

I get a good pension, which i pay dearly for, without factoring in the levy, and I get a permanent position that I competed against thousands to get. In fact I went through 2 years of aptitude tests, physcometric tests, skill set tests and interviews to get this position. After all that I went through a probationary period, the same as everybody else. And in taking this job I took a pay cut, which I thought was fair, because its a good job with a good employer. My best friend laughed at me for doing it. She thought I was crazy.

Every second person on this forum is giving out about the size of the public service, and how much it increased in the last ten years. Heres a few examples of why:
The public demanded more Gardai and support staff for them, they got it.
The public demanded more teachers, they got it.
The public demanded more nurses, they got it. They even added an extra nursing column to the CAO forms.
The public demanded more college place, they got it.
Is it really a suprise then, that public service numbers and payroll went up?

The average public service wages in Ireland are higher than our european counterparts? So is the cost of living. Thats why the state pension, social welfare payments, the upper limits for educational grants, medical cards... are so much higher than the rest of europe. Cut our salaries any more than has already been done, then the last people in this country who are still spending, will stop, and then you can imagine what will happen. For example: Nobody, employed or otherwise, will be able to pay their mortgages.

I joined boards.ie only today, because I just couldnt not respond to this thread. I've run on longer than I expected. So I'll make my final point,

Guess what people: You and I pay our taxes for a reason, to run the state, its services and its capital expenditure programs.

and that includes the paybill.