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2007-public-private pay gap was 48%!
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Public servants pay pension contributions aswell as the pension levy.
In fact my weekly contribution alone is higher than it was when i worked in the private sector, despite the fact my salary is €2000 less. And thats before you factor in the pension levy.
I also pay the Class A PRSI and the same rates of PAYE as I ever did. I am the taxpayer too.
Which should be factored into the equation of making jobs cuts, everyone is stating the obvious, that unemployment would increase, but nobody seems to be stating that the tax take would also reduce. significantly.
Public sector workers must pay pension contributions, which is fair, the same PRSI as everybody else, also fair, and the same taxes too, which again is only fair. The rules were changed well over a decade ago or have we all forgotten so soon?
The state cannot retrospectively change the terms and conditions of their own employment contracts. The State cannot breach its own employment legislation. What would the neighbours think...
I get the statutory minimum of annual leave, same as most everybody else, 20 days plus public holidays. I have to pay health insurance like everybody else. I must provide medical certs to my employer and social welfare if I am sick, the same as everybody else. I do not get flexi time or two hour lunch breaks.
I get a good pension, which i pay dearly for, without factoring in the levy, and I get a permanent position that I competed against thousands to get. In fact I went through 2 years of aptitude tests, physcometric tests, skill set tests and interviews to get this position. After all that I went through a probationary period, the same as everybody else. And in taking this job I took a pay cut, which I thought was fair, because its a good job with a good employer. My best friend laughed at me for doing it. She thought I was crazy.
Every second person on this forum is giving out about the size of the public service, and how much it increased in the last ten years. Heres a few examples of why:
The public demanded more Gardai and support staff for them, they got it.
The public demanded more teachers, they got it.
The public demanded more nurses, they got it. They even added an extra nursing column to the CAO forms.
The public demanded more college place, they got it.
Is it really a suprise then, that public service numbers and payroll went up?
The average public service wages in Ireland are higher than our european counterparts? So is the cost of living. Thats why the state pension, social welfare payments, the upper limits for educational grants, medical cards... are so much higher than the rest of europe. Cut our salaries any more than has already been done, then the last people in this country who are still spending, will stop, and then you can imagine what will happen. For example: Nobody, employed or otherwise, will be able to pay their mortgages.
I joined boards.ie only today, because I just couldnt not respond to this thread. I've run on longer than I expected. So I'll make my final point,
Guess what people: You and I pay our taxes for a reason, to run the state, its services and its capital expenditure programs.
and that includes the paybill.
i see you went to the same school of economics as jack o connor , he was on radio this mornng saying that reducng wages results in less money being spent in the economy , the problem is that the money being spent on wages is borrowed money , as for your point about public servants and taxes , public servants dont contribute wealth to the exchequer , they spend wealth , the are benficiaries of wealth , all wealth that is created in this country is done so in the private sector , taxes on this wealth are then spent by the goverment on public services ( wages etc ) , taxes that public servants pay is merely an exercise in passing around money0 -
Guess what people: You and I pay our taxes for a reason, to run the state, its services and its capital expenditure programs.
and that includes the paybill. [/LEFT]
So, whats your solution other than to cut pay and numbers?
Double income taxes?
Double the national debt to pay for the public service cost?0 -
Join Date:Posts: 13665
In fact my weekly contribution alone is higher than it was when i worked in the private sector, despite the fact my salary is €2000 less. And thats before you factor in the pension levy.
That's entirely possible, but doesn't mean that you are paying more for your pension than someone with a private pension scheme.Which should be factored into the equation of making jobs cuts, everyone is stating the obvious, that unemployment would increase, but nobody seems to be stating that the tax take would also reduce. significantly.
The tax take would decrease, perhaps signficantly, but the government will have to borrow less money for the wage bill which is even more significant.The state cannot retrospectively change the terms and conditions of their own employment contracts. The State cannot breach its own employment legislation. What would the neighbours think...
They are not retrospectively changing the terms and conditions, they are prospectively changing them just as the private sector does. If you have a private sector job you can be made redundant, lose benefits or have to take a pay cut due to market forces, why isn't the same true of the public sector? This is a bit of a bugbear of mine...why can't the government hire and fire people as they see fit?Every second person on this forum is giving out about the size of the public service, and how much it increased in the last ten years. Heres a few examples of why:
The public demanded more Gardai and support staff for them, they got it.
The public demanded more teachers, they got it.
The public demanded more nurses, they got it. They even added an extra nursing column to the CAO forms.
The public demanded more college place, they got it.
Is it really a suprise then, that public service numbers and payroll went up?
This is a good way to look at it - for years people thought the country had loads of money so demanded a high level of public service. Now we realise we're actually quite poor, and so we must cut back on public services. It's nothing personal against you or any public servant, but we just can't afford you.The average public service wages in Ireland are higher than our european counterparts? So is the cost of living. Thats why the state pension, social welfare payments, the upper limits for educational grants, medical cards... are so much higher than the rest of europe. Cut our salaries any more than has already been done, then the last people in this country who are still spending, will stop, and then you can imagine what will happen. For example: Nobody, employed or otherwise, will be able to pay their mortgages.
Yes, but while you say that as rhetoric, that's the reality of where were headed. The time to do something was arguably 10 years ago, probably 5 years ago and most definately 3 years ago when things started to go wrong but the government insisted that everything was fine. Now there is a very real chance that the country will tear itself apart as we hurtle towards a brick wall. The good news is though that once we reach bottom we can pick ourselves up and start again hopefully in a better way.Guess what people: You and I pay our taxes for a reason, to run the state, its services and its capital expenditure programs.
and that includes the paybill.
If I have had to give up drinking because of the recession I feel sorry for the publican who has to go out of business, but I'm not going to borrow money to keep drinking just because I feel sorry for him. In the same way, while you and other public sector employees have my sympathy I have to tighten my belt and accept a lesser level of public service. Ideally this would be in the more esoteric areas of the public sector which don't really improve my life significantly, but if cuts have to be made to front line services, so be it.0 -
cyclopath2001 wrote: »A relation of mine works in Revenue IT, they have Accenture on site. The company supplies their staff with baskets of fruit, snacks etc (via Tesco). Then there's the golf-outings & social 'team building exercises'....all of which probably gets charged back to the taxpayer in their services invoice.
"Probably" you say? Nonsense. All social outings in the Civil Service are funded by the workers, via social club deductions that come out of your wages. We have to pay for our milk, coffee etc via a canteen club deduction in wages. So none of that is free.0 -
Sounds very snobby to call bricklaying or even operating a JCB as unskilled or semiskilled just because they are more manual labour,
Eh there is a contradiction in what you said, manual labour is not the same as skilled members of the workforce or professionals who had to educate themselves or train for long periods. Manual labourers and unskilled workers have been payed far too much in recient years, this has lead to many manufacturing companies pulling out of the country as the cost of labour is too high by international standards. This rise in pay for the unskilled manual labour sector has resulted in increased pay for professionals. Take a doctor for example, six hundred points in the leaving cert, seven years in college, plus any amount of training/junior surpervised positions there after demands that those individuals are payed high wages than a person who did not have to train for their job. Higher pay compensates the individual for both loss of earnings during their education / training and attracts that person to work for you because you need their skills. To suggest manual labours and skilled/professionals should be payed the same is silly, they experimented with it before, it was called communism and didnt work out so well.0 -
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One word - Benchmarking - should never have happened then this discussion wouldn't be taking place...............................0
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the only thing thats relevant right now is that the country cannot afford the public sector wage bill due to the fact that public sector wages were only made affordable by our property boom , wages will be cut and numbers reduced beit by the irish goverment or outside forces , the choice is ours
Before we cut pay and numbers for the majority of the public service, we should reduce the number of senators and TD's, cut their salaries, pensions and expenses (all of which will be vouched by 50%). Also halve the salaries and pensions of members of the judiciary (oh sorry - I forgot - we can't force them to take a pay cut and they won't take one voluntarily), and also those of top ranking civil servants and diplomats. And, of course, tax our tax exiles. Anyone who holds an Irish Passport should pay taxes at the appropriate in Ireland. This won't happen, of course.Whatn will happen is that our health service and our emergency services will have their numbers reduced and the freeze on recruitment will be continued. Public beds will be slashed in hospitals. The wages of averagely-paid public servants will be cut, and services to the public will be reduced. Nurses, physiotherapists and newly-qualified doctors will emigrate and we'll still have one of the highest-paid governments in Europe.0 -
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johnnyskeleton wrote: »If I have had to give up drinking because of the recession I feel sorry for the publican who has to go out of business, but I'm not going to borrow money to keep drinking just because I feel sorry for him. In the same way, while you and other public sector employees have my sympathy I have to tighten my belt and accept a lesser level of public service. Ideally this would be in the more esoteric areas of the public sector which don't really improve my life significantly, but if cuts have to be made to front line services, so be it.
The best, most common sense way is merely to reduce public service wages dramitically, to be more in line with other countries and people in the private sector. Keep the same number of public servants, just don't pay them as much.0 -
If you did that, benchmarking would never have happened. You want 50 nurses, then you pay the minimum price to get the 50 you want. The pay rises would be the minimum to keep 50. Also if you can't afford to pay those 50 nurses and only 40, you let 10 go. That's how market forces work. I don't think those in the public sector really want that.NewDubliner wrote: »let market forces run their course.0 -
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Before we cut pay and numbers for the majority of the public service, we should reduce the number of senators and TD's, cut their salaries, pensions and expenses (all of which will be vouched by 50%). Also halve the salaries and pensions of members of the judiciary (oh sorry - I forgot - we can't force them to take a pay cut and they won't take one voluntarily), and also those of top ranking civil servants and diplomats. And, of course, tax our tax exiles. Anyone who holds an Irish Passport should pay taxes at the appropriate in Ireland. This won't happen, of course.Whatn will happen is that our health service and our emergency services will have their numbers reduced and the freeze on recruitment will be continued. Public beds will be slashed in hospitals. The wages of averagely-paid public servants will be cut, and services to the public will be reduced. Nurses, physiotherapists and newly-qualified doctors will emigrate and we'll still have one of the highest-paid governments in Europe.
making cuts need not in anyway result in services being weakened , nurses could easily afford to take a 25% pay cut over three years , consultants a 40% pay cut , this would still put them ahead of countries which are wealthier than us0 -
The best, most common sense way is merely to reduce public service wages dramitically, to be more in line with other countries and people in the private sector. Keep the same number of public servants, just don't pay them as much.
though not ideal , that would be a reasonable trade off for now0 -
Eh there is a contradiction in what you said, manual labour is not the same as skilled members of the workforce or professionals who had to educate themselves or train for long periods. Manual labourers and unskilled workers have been payed far too much in recient years, this has lead to many manufacturing companies pulling out of the country as the cost of labour is too high by international standards. This rise in pay for the unskilled manual labour sector has resulted in increased pay for professionals. Take a doctor for example, six hundred points in the leaving cert, seven years in college, plus any amount of training/junior surpervised positions there after demands that those individuals are payed high wages than a person who did not have to train for their job. Higher pay compensates the individual for both loss of earnings during their education / training and attracts that person to work for you because you need their skills. To suggest manual labours and skilled/professionals should be payed the same is silly, they experimented with it before, it was called communism and didnt work out so well.
Are bricklayers, plasterers and plumbers not skilled , don't they also train in a four year appprenticeship at reduced earnings, yes Snobbery is the word and the motive for keeping the "professions" at the top0 -
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you have a point. However, the way of the world is that market forces will determine their wages. Unfortately the blackmail employed by the public service trade unions over the years " pay us extra or we will strike" has worked to Irelands disadvantage eg we have one of the highest electricity costs in Europe etcAre bricklayers, plasterers and plumbers not skilled , don't they also train in a four year appprenticeship at reduced earnings, yes Snobbery is the word and the motive for keeping the "professions" at the top0 -
you have a point. However, the way of the world is that market forces will determine their wages. Unfortately the blackmail employed by the public service trade unions over the years " pay us extra or we will strike" has worked to Irelands disadvantage eg we have one of the highest electricity costs in Europe etc
There has always been unjust disparity between people 'Paid from the neck up' to those 'Paid from the neck down'.. (Ridiculous sayings I know).
Some of the hardest jobs to do will always be tradesmens jobs. Particularly good ones. However, over the last few years, they did ride the tiger to huge prices, but, in turn, professionals salaries went up too. Astronomically in some cases. I, myself, have worked as a bricklayer during 2 summers in collges, and it is a tough job.... but not as tough as passing an honours degree in my opinion.
We are all guilty of overindulgence during the tiger! But now we should ALL feel the fall and sting. This should mean the ones 'protected' by the unions too.0 -
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter comparing wages etc who does a better job, who has more days off or hours in the day, if you take the public sector as a business, which has x amount to pay staff, the current figures are y and x is nearly double y.....
that means even if the public sector strike and walk around in circles with hoardings on their backs they are only delaying the inevitable.. they will be cut drastically to keep the costs down. the private sector are now two years into this recession and have accepted it, theres no choice or bail out.
if the cuts dont come now, they will come from europe, imf or whoever will come to the rescue. the bright sparkes with their third level education in the public sector deep down know this and when the strikew happen, which they will, they will find out that the rest of use workers 1.5 million will have little sympathy.
it just live , it sucks, no one wants cuts, in our company we didn't take a voluntary cut, we were forced to take three cuts so far, down over 40% since two years ago, but hey still have a job and still better off than the dole, things will get better but until then take the cuts like adults....not fools0 -
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter comparing wages etc who does a better job, who has more days off or hours in the day, if you take the public sector as a business, which has x amount to pay staff, the current figures are y and x is nearly double y.....
that means even if the public sector strike and walk around in circles with hoardings on their backs they are only delaying the inevitable.. they will be cut drastically to keep the costs down. the private sector are now two years into this recession and have accepted it, theres no choice or bail out.
if the cuts dont come now, they will come from europe, imf or whoever will come to the rescue. the bright sparkes with their third level education in the public sector deep down know this and when the strikew happen, which they will, they will find out that the rest of use workers 1.5 million will have little sympathy.
it just live , it sucks, no one wants cuts, in our company we didn't take a voluntary cut, we were forced to take three cuts so far, down over 40% since two years ago, but hey still have a job and still better off than the dole, things will get better but until then take the cuts like adults....not fools
I agree with everything you say...and from talking to family, friends, relations, sports colleagues, work contacts, neighbours etc I think many people would agree with you. If the public sector strike and walk around in circles with hoardings on their backs ,they are only delaying the inevitable as you say....at least the hoardings on their backs may shelter them from the rotten fruit thrown by the public.:)0 -
or they could do a former fas chief job,threaten legal action and get a lovely payoff with a big pension to go away...0
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let them threaten legal action, its not going to stop a single thing,, they'll be cut no other option. I hope the government stand up to these unions and the like. how can the union leaders only want to protect their nice €250k+ salaries and board jobs.
time for the government to take firm action. its clear that the last few years everyone forgot what things are worth and throwing surplus money around to please everyone will not be possible for the next 10 years or so.
time to start again, reassess things. step 1, take a country that we admire, wish we were like e.g germany, france, usa, canada, uk etc etc.. take their pay structures, efficiencies, tax systems and work from there..better than the current cowboy, pyramid system we are on now0 -
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theres gonna be job cuts or pay cuts either way something has to go,country is simply broke,anyone that is on top is bleeding it dry so they pick on the small people like pensioners/family man trying make a living/family man surviveing on the dole,so expect them to be taxed to death like in the 80s or cut to avoid the legal action from the mighty public service...0
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time to start again, reassess things. step 1, take a country that we admire, wish we were like e.g germany, france, usa, canada, uk etc etc.. take their pay structures, efficiencies, tax systems and work from there..better than the current cowboy, pyramid system we are on now
defo something wrong there,its well known that the politicans here are paid way more than the german cousins who have way more population in their region!0 -
Some of the hardest jobs to do will always be tradesmens jobs. Particularly good ones. However, over the last few years, they did ride the tiger to huge prices, but, in turn, professionals salaries went up too. Astronomically in some cases. I, myself, have worked as a bricklayer during 2 summers in collges, and it is a tough job.... but not as tough as passing an honours degree in my opinion.
We are all guilty of overindulgence during the tiger! But now we should ALL feel the fall and sting. This should mean the ones 'protected' by the unions too.
not always,sometimes was govs fault too,heres two classic cases from rte archive
The president of the Garda Representative Association has accused the Office of Public Works of continuing to squander public money with no concept of value.
Michael O'Boyce told delegates at their annual conference that the OPW spent €15,000 refurbishing a gym in Letterkenny for which they had been quoted €5,000.
He also claimed that the Office spent €16,500 to put a shower in Ballinhassig Garda Station, €4,050 for 10 square yards of floor covering for Churchill Garda Station and €1,100 to replace three bulbs in another station.
The OPW has totally rejected the claims saying the figures quoted do not include the ancillary plumbing and other works.
A spokesman pointed out that in Ballinahassig for example, it is not just an electric shower that has to put in, the entire shower room has to be built, and OPW is still awaiting approval from the Garda authorities.
He also said he could not respond to the light bulbs claim because the station in question was not specified.
Story from RTÉ News:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0428/garda.html0 -
theres gonna be job cuts or pay cuts either way something has to go,country is simply broke
This is the point. The PS have to realise this as do the bloke on the top bleeding the place dry. The PS need to take pay cuts but they shouldnt have to do so as long as the politicians and economist keep saying that hitting the guy on the top will not bring enough money to fix the problem. That is not the issue here, they should be hit hard regardless in the case of equity and transparency needed for people lower down to take pay cuts. As for the dole it should be cut.0 -
Any country with a public-private pay gap was 48% tend not to work out too well either....most developed countires tend to pay those who have secure, pensionable government jobs a bit less than the people in their private sectors.
the leader of most countries didnt have the same relationship with unions as bertie ( the gift that kept on giving ) aherne0 -
I agree with everything you say...and from talking to family, friends, relations, sports colleagues, work contacts, neighbours etc I think many people would agree with you. If the public sector strike and walk around in circles with hoardings on their backs ,they are only delaying the inevitable as you say....at least the hoardings on their backs may shelter them from the rotten fruit thrown by the public.:)
i hope your right about the tomato throwing bu im not so sure , us irish are a deeply self serving people , while only 35o thousand people work for the state , each of those public sector workers have family and if thier is one thing us irish like , its keeping money in the family , a farmer , builder , corner shop owner or busker who has a relative or spouse who works for the state will oppose pay cuts and support strikes , thinking of the greater good is not a strong irish trait0 -
u are correct in that we like to look after ourselves, but its time now for the powers at be to look after the greater good. we all have friends, family in the ps or know guards, paramedics etc, everyone says we shouldnt be cut cos were on the front line etc, its all a bit of a cop out really..as i said before no one likes cuts and everyone thinks their job is more important than the next..the media have kind of set up a private versus public debate thats not helping anyone...at the end of the day were all ordinary workers public and private and were all gonna have to just accept that theres no money anymore...
ireland is bust, were living on borrowed money...some people cant seem to accept this, if the government cop out now from the cuts that are needed it will make everything worse, 2010 will be just like 1980 again and we'll begin a new decade with little hope of recovery or prosperity.0 -
u are correct in that we like to look after ourselves, but its time now for the powers at be to look after the greater good. we all have friends, family in the ps or know guards, paramedics etc, everyone says we shouldnt be cut cos were on the front line etc, its all a bit of a cop out really..as i said before no one likes cuts and everyone thinks their job is more important than the next..the media have kind of set up a private versus public debate thats not helping anyone...at the end of the day were all ordinary workers public and private and were all gonna have to just accept that theres no money anymore...
ireland is bust, were living on borrowed money...some people cant seem to accept this, if the government cop out now from the cuts that are needed it will make everything worse, 2010 will be just like 1980 again and we'll begin a new decade with little hope of recovery or prosperity.
the media may report on the pay gap between public and prvate sector but its the unions who have turned such reporting of facts into some sort of conspirocy0 -
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