Public workers earn 48 per cent more than others

Time Magazine

jimmmy wrote: »

will the govt act before the IMF does in reducing them, and when so, by how much ?

FFS I don't think riskymove can speak for when the government will act. And just dropping "ooooooh the IMF are coming!" into the debate isn't helping. The public sector pay bill is €20bn. So even if we cut everyone's pay by 20% that saves €4bn, or less than one-fifth of the projected deficit for this year.

I think there are two well-established facts that both sides should accept.

1. Yes, there is a public sector pay gap and yes, it's a considerable amount (about 20%).
2. Even if this was removed, we'd still be in a mess economically. Public sector pay is neither the cause of, nor solution to, all of our problems.

If we got that, then maybe the debate could be worthwhile.

solice

jimmmy wrote: »

Riskymove, you still have not answered the question. Given that public service pay and pensions in this country are so way out of line with the rest of the world, never mind the private sector, will the govt act before the IMF does in reducing them, and when so, by how much ?

Im going to hazard a guess, I could be way off the mark here Jimmy but just taking a stab in the dark at it....would they do it at the budget....you know that thing that the Minister for Finance does once a year, where they announce their spending budget for the following year? Would that be it? :rolleyes:

Économiste Monétaire

The Economist wrote: »

I doubt he can, but there are others.

Here's a brief one (but based on something far more substantive). Also I'm almost certain more were done as a result of benchmarking, though I don't have time to go gandering.

Here's another study based on 2003 earnings data—it's a report to the benchmarking body. It doesn't quite show the 50% premium; more on the lines of 10-15%. There was another ESRI paper on the issue around 2001/3. Personally, I'm not aware of anything more up-to-date than the 2008 ESRI paper that TE already linked.

jimmmy

The Economist wrote: »

The public sector pay bill is €20bn. So even if we cut everyone's pay by 20% that saves €4bn, or less than one-fifth of the projected deficit for this year.

It would be a help. Of course public service pensions should be cut as well, why should our public service pensioners be the highest paid / most overpaid public service pensioners in the world , given the state of our finances ? A bit of fairness and common sense is called for.

Time Magazine

jimmmy wrote: »

It would be a help. Of course public service pensions should be cut as well, why should our public service pensioners be the highest paid / most overpaid public service pensioners in the world , given the state of our finances ?

I'm including pensions as "pay" for public service. The figure is still €20bn, and they've already taken the pay cut "pension levy".

A bit of fairness and common sense is called for.

I agree entirely. So seeing as if we were to eliminate the pay gap to the international average of 10%, we'd need to cut public sector pay by another €600m. So we're talking €600m here out of about €21bn of a deficit. Considerable, but nothing major. I hope you include yourself in that call for a bit of common sense.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

A bit of fairness and common sense is called for.

:pac:

jimmmy

The Economist wrote: »

The public sector pay bill is €20bn. So even if we cut everyone's pay by 20% that saves €4bn, or less than one-fifth of the projected deficit for this year.


I think there are two well-established facts that both sides should accept.

1. Yes, there is a public sector pay gap and yes, it's a considerable amount (about 20%).
2. Even if this was removed, we'd still be in a mess economically.

Even if the gap is only 20% as you claim ( most people would disagree ), why should the gap not be the other way around....ie the private sector paid more than the puiblic sector, as in most other countries ? There is scope for saving 8 billion plus , given overstaffing in the public service ( eg 6000 in the dept of agriculture for only 100,000 farmers ), current poor productivity / short working hours ( sickies, 32 hour weeks, longer holidays etc ). Save 8 billion there , and cut our politicans numbers and pay too to more like international standards. If this had been done before now, we would not be in as big a mess economically.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

[/LIST]
Save 8 billion there , .

sorry jimmmy, €8bn saved where exactly?

erase the Dept of agriculture?

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Riskymove, you still have not answered the question. ...

That's a bit rich, given that you just ducked a question I put to you. [Mind you, you neither surprised nor disappointed me.]

Économiste Monétaire

jimmmy wrote: »

Even if the gap is only 20% as you claim ( most people would disagree )

Most people... and they are? Are there any economists that support your position?

P. Breathnach

The Economist wrote: »

I doubt he can, but there are others.

I'm sure there are.

Here's a brief one (but based on something far more substantive). Also I'm almost certain more were done as a result of benchmarking, though I don't have time to go gandering.

Thank you. At least it has data (okay, better to say that it is based on available data). I prefer the ESRI approach, which better accommodates the idea of like-with-like comparison.

LoLth

@jimmy & post #38

somehow I dont think "sickies" are actually part of the public sector employment conditions, nor do I think sick days are exclusive to either sector in the economy. 32 hour weeks... I know several people working in the public sector and they are all on 39 + 40 hour weeks. one friend has extended holidays but she works a thing called "term time" where she works less hours per week and has extended summer holidays to help manage the care of her daughter, of course her pay is reduced proportionate to the hours she works , it just gets spread out over the entire year instead. Flexi-time, you still put in the same number of hours you just get to re-adjust when those hours go in to make life easier - the work still gets done and the cover is still there (ie. not everyone can take a flexi leave day at the same time). To be honest, this is somethign the private sector should be emulating not trying to have taken away. I've seen to many people down tools at 5 or 6pm and leave a job half done to pick up the next day because they're finished work and thats that. at least with flexi time (time in lieu and not overtime) the job gets finished. [ i worked in a call cenrte once where the phones were switched off at 5:30 exactly even if you were in the middle of a conversation , I worked in another that turned off the queues at 5:00 so they would empty at 5:30. if you didnt have a call in your queue you twiddled your thumbs or went home early] poor productivity ? again not exclusive to either sector (I look at the workmanship in the window frames and doors in my house as well as the number of puttied in holes in the wall and the terrible fitting of the skirting boards and I have to wonder about the level of productivity the builders had and the quality of that product).

could you please stop re-hashing old arguments that you were proven wrong in before. seriously, its getting annyoing now and is counter productive to the discussion at hand. it just forces everyone to re-cover old ground and exasperates those who've already tried to help you see the light. you do have some good points but you hide them under so much preacher-like parrotting of terms that you read in the Indo that its almost embarrassing to actually agree with you on anything.

Riskymove

LoLth wrote: »

could you please stop re-hashing old arguments that you were proven wrong in before. seriously, its getting annyoing now and is counter productive to the discussion at hand. it just forces everyone to re-cover old ground and exasperates those who've already tried to help you see the light. you do have some good points but you hide them under so much preacher-like parrotting of terms that you read in the Indo that its almost embarrassing to actually agree with you on anything.

it would seem jimmmy does not know any other way to post

Riskymove

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

Most people... and they are?

the people who read the indo and blindly react to sensational headlines

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

[/LIST]
Even if the gap is only 20% as you claim ( most people would disagree ),

Another wild claim. Can you back that one up?

why should the gap not be the other way around....ie the private sector paid more than the puiblic sector, as in most other countries ? There is scope for saving 8 billion plus , given overstaffing in the public service ( eg 6000 in the dept of agriculture for only 100,000 farmers ), current poor productivity / short working hours ( sickies, 32 hour weeks, longer holidays etc ). Save 8 billion there , and cut our politicans numbers and pay too to more like international standards. If this had been done before now, we would not be in as big a mess economically.

That looks to me a bit like soapboxing.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That looks to me a bit like soapboxing.

Well, why should the gap not be the other way around....ie the private sector paid more than the public sector, as in most other countries ?

Of course if I was a public servant ( a servant who works for the public ) or a retired public servant , I may think it ok that the govt borrows over 30 million PER DAY to keep me and my comrades supported

Riskymove

Riskymove wrote: »

sorry jimmmy, €8bn saved where exactly?

erase the Dept of agriculture?

oh...but you still not have answered my question jimmmy...:pac::pac::pac:

Ms Happy

I am on €24K and NOT PERMANENT so please as stated by many posters in other threads don't tar us all as wasters etc etc etc.

As a public sector worker I have seen the "fat" that could be trimmed off. Most of this lies with "established" employees that do SFA.

There are many hard working public sector employees that don't sit around all day doing nothing. Mnay of us face an uncertain future as many private sector workers do.

I could rant on but there's no point.....

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Well, why should the gap not be the other way around....ie the private sector paid more than the public sector, as in most other countries ?

Of course if I was a public servant ( a servant who works for the public ) or a retired public servant , I may think it ok that the govt borrows over 30 million PER DAY to keep me and my comrades supported

jimmmy

again these are issues which have little to do with this thread if you want to start a thread about borrowing do so

Mountjoy Mugger

Jaysus, Jimmmy.

You're really full of it - and it's all gone down undigested.

I suppose if you'd got a PS with 10 High Court Judges on 200k p.a. and 10 Clerical Officers earning 22k p.a; you'd still swallow the ****e about average PS salary being 110k p.a. and cut the C.O.'s wage by 20% ?

dbready

In fairness I think jimmy is getting a bit over hyped by the latest reports.

However, it is common knowledge whether Public Sector workers wish to admit it or not, that our Public sector is grossly overpaid for the services the public receive.

I don't blame the employees, I blame the unions 100%. Their benchmarking exercise never took into account the pensions gauranteed to Public Sector workers (I know of no-one who is guaranteed a lifetime pension in the private sector).

I also believe the frontline staff Gardai, Nurses, Firefighters etc.. should be given an increase at the expense of lazy administration staff who just get moved around because there is no specific jobs for them, and to make it worse the culprits KNOW this. Again thanks to our brilliant unions in this country no one can be let go in the Public Service.

Major overall neede to get a worldclass service which we deserve, and in the process we could save billions and enjoy a quality Health service for example!! Time to wake up the Irish Electorate.

Riskymove

dbready wrote: »

However, it is common knowledge whether Public Sector workers wish to admit it or not, that our Public sector is grossly overpaid for the services the public receive.

I don't blame the employees, I blame the unions 100%. Their benchmarking exercise never took into account the pensions gauranteed to Public Sector workers (I know of no-one who is guaranteed a lifetime pension in the private sector).

I also believe the frontline staff Gardai, Nurses, Firefighters etc.. should be given an increase at the expense of lazy administration staff who just get moved around because there is no specific jobs for them, and to make it worse the culprits KNOW this. Again thanks to our brilliant unions in this country no one can be let go in the Public Service.

Major overall neede to get a worldclass service which we deserve, and in the process we could save billions and enjoy a quality Health service for example!! Time to wake up the Irish Electorate.

I join you in the call for reform in the public service, however, i think you need to brush up on a few facts, starting with

1. pensions were taken into account in benchmarking (12% deducted from pay award)

2. if you exclude gardai, nurses, firefighters etc (and teachers?) who do you think is left and how many. do you really believe that the pay bill could be got under control that way?

Ms Happy

dbready wrote: »

I also believe the frontline staff Gardai, Nurses, Firefighters etc.. should be given an increase at the expense of lazy administration staff who just get moved around because there is no specific jobs for them, and to make it worse the culprits KNOW this. Again thanks to our brilliant unions in this country no one can be let go in the Public Service.

Any other part of the public service you'd like to generalise about??? I'm in admin and last time I looked I didn't have a chance to be lazy.

Some people grrr.....:mad:

Riskymove

dbready wrote: »

I know of no-one who is guaranteed a lifetime pension in the private sector

I

old age pension?

Ronando

By coincident, that source quoted earlier comparing average pay in public and private sectors has been updated today, and now includes semi-state and health sectors:
http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/13/public-sector-versus-private-sector-pay-update/

It also refers to research by Davy, about very specific experience/age/job type cohort, shown here, which says the per-hour difference is as large as 70%:
http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2009/07/economics-11072009-public-servants-earn.html

Time Magazine

Ms Happy wrote: »

Any other part of the public service you'd like to generalise about??? I'm in admin and last time I looked I didn't have a chance to be lazy.

Some people grrr.....:mad:

Posted at 4pm on a Monday :pac:

LoLth

and jimmy posted at 15:20 , and you are posting at 16:13... nearly everyone I know reads a forum of some description from work, a lot of people post to them. as long as the work gets done whats the harm ? (and as long as there is work there to be done). After over a decade in IT, I can pretty much say that I have yet to see a PC that doesnt have some personal browsing / reading material on it.

again, not something I would see as restricted to one sector or the other.

dbready

Ms Happy wrote: »

Any other part of the public service you'd like to generalise about??? I'm in admin and last time I looked I didn't have a chance to be lazy.

Some people grrr.....:mad:

Apologies if I upset you but......

For a start I am not saying all admin staff, but if those who work hard (like yourself) were to stand up and be counted and be honest - can you honestly say that all admin staff are working to the best of their ability? If not why not name and shame them, at least then we would not be in the mess we are in now.

By the way I worked in the Public Sector a number of years ago, and got so frustrated by finishing my work by lunchtime on a regular basis - to be told by my peers to slow down!! I eventually left for less money and no pension but at least I had my dignity.

Ms Happy

The Economist wrote: »

Posted at 4pm on a Monday :pac:

Thought someone would try to be smart on that....

I'm on my holidays, 2 weeks at home no Costa del whatever for me I'm afraid.

Riskymove

The Economist wrote: »

Posted at 4pm on a Monday :pac:

when you assume.......