Joint accounts - closing

Discodog

A friend of mine has a joint account with an ex boyfriend. The bank say that they cannot close the account without both signatures. The account is overdrawn & the ex is continuing to spend thereby creating a debt for my friend that she has no control over.

How does she limit her liability ?

GerardKeating

Discodog wrote: »

A friend of mine has a joint account with an ex boyfriend. The bank say that they cannot close the account without both signatures. The account is overdrawn & the ex is continuing to spend thereby creating a debt for my friend that she has no control over.

How does she limit her liability ?

Write to the bank (registered letter) demanding her name be removed from the account, Ask for any over draft to be terminated.

Many report all the cards lost as well../

Discodog

Thanks. That was going to be my first bit of advice to her.

Toots

Unfortunately unless they have his signature also, there is nothing the bank can do. With a joint account they are jointly and severally liable for the accounts, and any debts incurred on it. She can write and demand all she likes, but unfortunately the bank are unable to remove her name from the account. It will have to be closed altogether. They will also be unable to remove any credit facilities on the account (ie the overdraft). If the situation is that he is refusing to allow the account to be closed, and is dragging her into debt, she may need to get in touch with a solicitor and see is there a way of getting the ex to agree to the closure.

Random

Wreckless idea: max out the overdraft yourself so there's nothing left for her.

Toots

Random wrote: »

Wreckless idea: max out the overdraft yourself so there's nothing left for her.

Discodog

If she writes stating that she has no control over the account & demands that the bank do not allow any liability to increase then the bank would have trouble pursuing her for any future debt.

The bank would be clearly negligent in allowing a debt to increase when the joint debtor has requested that they close the account.

stepbar

Discodog wrote: »

If she writes stating that she has no control over the account & demands that the bank do not allow any liability to increase then the bank would have trouble pursuing her for any future debt.

The bank would be clearly negligent in allowing a debt to increase when the joint debtor has requested that they close the account.

How so if there's an agreed overdraft in place? Just because it's not maxed out doesn't mean the bank would be negligent in allowing the debt to increase when she and her ex agreed to an overdraft limit of x and the present balance is under x. The ex wouldn't be able to increase the overdraft limit whithout her permission so there's no chance the liability would increase. There's a difference between debt and liability.

Random

Toots* wrote: »

There's gotta be some limit on the account. The more money he can take out of it the less money she can ... ?? So when the bank finally call it a day and freeze things up, he'll at least have a portion of the money to pay back ..

Scottie99

Report the cards stolen, that should stop her short term

Toots

Random wrote: »

There's gotta be some limit on the account. The more money he can take out of it the less money she can ... ?? So when the bank finally call it a day and freeze things up, he'll at least have a portion of the money to pay back ..

The way I understood it, the OP's friend is a girl. It's her ex BF taking the money out of the account that is the problem.

Jo King

stepbar wrote: »

How so if there's an agreed overdraft in place? Just because it's not maxed out doesn't mean the bank would be negligent in allowing the debt to increase when she and her ex agreed to an overdraft limit of x and the present balance is under x. The ex wouldn't be able to increase the overdraft limit whithout her permission so there's no chance the liability would increase. There's a difference between debt and liability.

An agreed overdraft can be terminated. the bank always retains the right to terminate an overdraft. The parties to an agreement can always replace it with another agreement.

Toots

But they'll need both parties to consent to removing the overdraft facility.

VanHeusen

Discodog wrote: »

A friend of mine has a joint account with an ex boyfriend. The bank say that they cannot close the account without both signatures. The account is overdrawn & the ex is continuing to spend thereby creating a debt for my friend that she has no control over.

Hold on. The bank is clearly allowed to act on instructions given by any ONE of the account holders if they let the ex-boyfriend make further withdrawals without your friend's consent. But they say they cannot close the account without BOTH signatures? This does not make much sense.

Also, has she checked the Terms and Conditions? There usually is a clause like the one below regarding withdrawals (this one is from Permanent TSB):

"Where the Account is a joint account and, the Bank has
notice of a dispute between the account holders, the
Bank may cease to permit withdrawals from the Account,
and subject to the Bank’s discretion, dealing may not be
permitted on the Account until the Bank receives a new
written mandate from the account holders."

Cicero

No bank will allow an account to continue where there is potential for the account to go into arrears without the potential of pay back.
Either party to the account can request a block to all debits on the account once the account is re-payable to either- i.e. that either party to the account can sign on the account to withdraw monies, which in this case, appears to be the situation

Phone the bank and tell them there is potential for the account to go into arrears and you wish the account to be stopped with immediate effect. In terms of the debt owed, they will go after both of you to retrieve it- however, the important thing right now is that the debt doesn't get any bigger.

Toots

VanHeusen wrote: »

Hold on. The bank is clearly allowed to act on instructions given by any ONE of the account holders if they let the ex-boyfriend make further withdrawals without your friend's consent. But they say they cannot close the account without BOTH signatures? This does not make much sense.

Also, has she checked the Terms and Conditions? There usually is a clause like the one below regarding withdrawals (this one is from Permanent TSB):

"Where the Account is a joint account and, the Bank has
notice of a dispute between the account holders, the
Bank may cease to permit withdrawals from the Account,
and subject to the Bank’s discretion, dealing may not be
permitted on the Account until the Bank receives a new
written mandate from the account holders."

The bank will allow transactions authorised by one signatory (if specified at the time of account opening there's usually two boxes and you tick the one appropriate) but for things like applying for credit facilities or closing the account they require both signatures.

I had a similar case in work, where a woman was looking to get her name taken off her current account with her husband because he was a gambling addict and was getting them into a massive overdrawn balance which they couldn't clear. In this instance it was clear that the husband's card was being used on an online gambling website, but we only had the wife's word that it was her husband using it. By that I mean, it could very well have been her who had run up the debt using his card, and was now trying to get out of it by having her name taken off the account and leaving him stuck with the debt. As far as the bank is concerned, they only have the OP's friend's word that her ex is the one running up the debt.

OP, I'd be telling your friend to seek legal advice on this one TBH, because I'd say it's going to get messy either way. It might be of some use to make an appointment with the Customer Service Manager (or similar) in the branch, and sit down with them to discuss the situation and see is there anything that can be done like cancelling the cards, or putting a temporary block up on the account.

VanHeusen

Toots* wrote: »

The bank will allow transactions authorised by one signatory (if specified at the time of account opening there's usually two boxes and you tick the one appropriate) but for things like applying for credit facilities or closing the account they require both signatures.

I had a similar case in work, where a woman was looking to get her name taken off her current account with her husband because he was a gambling addict and was getting them into a massive overdrawn balance which they couldn't clear. In this instance it was clear that the husband's card was being used on an online gambling website, but we only had the wife's word that it was her husband using it. By that I mean, it could very well have been her who had run up the debt using his card, and was now trying to get out of it by having her name taken off the account and leaving him stuck with the debt. As far as the bank is concerned, they only have the OP's friend's word that her ex is the one running up the debt.

This I can understand. Both account holders are liable so taking the name of one of them off a joint account would mean leaving the other co-owner with 100% liability, therefore legal issues etc, etc.

Are BOTH signatures always required by banks in Ireland in order to close a joint account? Even if the bank is allowed to act on instructions given by any ONE of the account holders and there are absolutely no issues, overdraft, debt etc?

Toots

To close an account, yes. The bank needs to be sure that both parties are consenting to the account being closed. The only exception to this is if one party is deceased, but there is a different procedure for that.

VanHeusen

Toots* wrote: »

To close an account, yes. The bank needs to be sure that both parties are consenting to the account being closed. The only exception to this is if one party is deceased, but there is a different procedure for that.

That's different. Thanks for the explanation, Toots*.