Nazi Statue !?!?

Dr_Phil

Morlar wrote: »

Yes we Irish have a lot to answer for !! Practically invaded Poland we did. Oh no wait a second. . . .

Someone said: "Idiots learn on their own mistakes. Wise men learn on mistakes of others". It's better to be safe than sorry. Goes well in Ireland SO FAR and trust me you'd love it to stay this way.

Morlar

monkeyfudge wrote: »

You don't think they have to answer why they feel the need to build a political statue in a public park in this day and age?

It is no more overtly political than any statue of any historical figure. It was not built in this day and age - the statue was first erected in the 1950's.

monkeyfudge wrote: »

One that went up just days before the last election as well.

As someone else mentioned this statue was erected in the 1950's - it has already been damaged by various cockfags so this is the replacement one. The statue was erected in the 1950's. The timing of local and european elections is irrelevant.

monkeyfudge wrote: »

And whatever you think of the man you have to admit that his character is a matter of contention.

I can hardly think of a statue of a historical figure from Irish history that someone somewhere will not find contentious.

K-9

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

What was that adage - the enemy of my enemy is my friend?
So if the Brits were the enemy, then, during WW2 the nazis would have been our friends...

But the Brits where not our enemy during WW2, but nice line!

Rebelheart

monkeyfudge wrote: »

The current statue was erected in May.

OK. So now there is some conspiracy theory about the timing of the statue's re-erection? Who has allegedly benefitted from this timing and what was their precise connection with this timing?

Morlar

K-9 wrote: »

But the Brits where not our enemy during WW2, but nice line!

Do you think it was the germans in disguise occupying the north of Ireland since the war of independence 20 years previously? It was also the british who posed the most realistic threat of invading Ireland during the 2nd World war.

Rebelheart

A quick glance also reveals that the statue is to IRA volunteers from all over Ireland, as is clearly stated on the "Seán Russell statue". But I suppose when the people who vandalised it have such an abysmal inability to vandalise in correct English, understanding the Irish is just asking too much. But let's not complicate things, shall we.


Meanwhile I'd like to point out that Seán Russell, having died on 14 August 1940, "collaborated" with "the Nazis" for 11 months and 11 days longer than the British government did. The latter of course heroically declared war on 3 September 1939 because it wanted to free the Jews from concentration camps. If you don't accept this, you, too, must be a Nazi collaborator.


They courageously engaged on this path by collaborating co-operating with Josef Stalin, that great pacifist, for many years. Ah yes, the stupidity of these people takes some beating.

K-9

Personally, I find people change.

Frank Aiken was a rather dislikeable character during the 20's but very likeable during the 50's.

kumate_champ07

starn wrote: »

The statue should not of been replaced Sean Russell after it was vandalised. Russell was a nazi callaborator and does not deserve any sort of commemoration

would you rather be living in a British ruled Ireland instead?

Jesus Juice

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm neither here nor there on Seán Russell - But he went to germany to secure arms, not to assist Nazi Germany. His choice to secure them from Nazi Germany is questionable, but it certainly doesn't mean that he agreed with their views.

I would hazard a guess that his statue is there because of the tremedous work he put into securing Irish sovereignty, with his participation in the Easter Rising rather than getting his hands dirty by going to Nazi Germany to secure arms. It should be noted that he also went to Russia to secure arms. He certainly didn't hold Nazi views.

It's always nice to put things in context.

I applaud you sir.

K-9

Morlar wrote: »

Do you think it was the germans in disguise occupying the north of Ireland since the war of independence 20 years previously? It was also the british who posed the most realistic threat of invading Ireland during the 2nd World war.

Fair point and I completely agree. YEP, we'd have preferred a Nazi invasion.

Rebelheart

K-9 wrote: »

Fair point and I completely agree. YEP, we'd have preferred a Nazi invasion.

In fairness you are being disingenuous trying to twist the man's point to suit your argument.

K-9

Rebelheart wrote: »

In fairness you are being disingenuous trying to twist the man's point to suit your argument.

Not at all, it was a direct response to his point.

His point was disingenuous and I was responding, would be a fairer summation!

yeahsure

If you were to dig into anybodies history your going to find a whole load of **** that today would be to say the least frowned upon!I could wiki all night and dredge up thousands of moments in history where the brits look every bit as evil as any conqueror or any nazi lunatic in history,for fux sake the brits collonized half the planet and they didn't do it by saying pretty please!I have noticed in many forums and various other sites that the brits like to focus on a few rare shortcomings of irish history and NEVER seem to be ashamed of their own past,instead theres a sickening pride there,where they boast about creating this and inventing that and never seeing that the reason behind this is because they didn't have to suffer centuries of oppression where their very language was beaten out of them!Now i dont want to tar all brits with the same brush,im addressing the one's that know who they are,the very same ones that will focus all their attention on the likes of this stupid statue and come to the conclusion that the irish were nazi collaberaters...this in itself i find hilarious as we were still being downdrodden by the brits at the time!ANYWAY this being relevant or not i was just venting after coming off the tailend of a very similer argument on youtube,stupid fuxing scoucer dickweed!

General Zod

Sean russell was at best, very naieve. It's true that he also went to Russia for weapons (where he was asked "how many bishops have you shot?") and then to Germany. He was willing to collaborate with the Germans to a much higher degree, even trying to raise an Irish batallion from Irish POW's in Stalag 301.

Maybe not a Nazi, but certainly not innocent.

Nodin

General Zod wrote: »

Sean russell was at best, very naieve. It's true that he also went to Russia for weapons (where he was asked "how many bishops have you shot?") and then to Germany. He was willing to collaborate with the Germans to a much higher degree, even trying to raise an Irish batallion from Irish POW's in Stalag 301.

Maybe not a Nazi, but certainly not innocent.

The only thing in dispute is whether or not he was a Nazi. As theres no "nazi" statements of his on record, many similar historical precedents for "unlikely bedfellows" (including American republicans seeking Royalist french help, the zionist Irgun group seeking out German help in the 1930's), the real question is just about how fucking stupid the gobshites vandalising this statue are.

Ste.phen

Nodin wrote: »

the real question is just about how fucking stupid the gobshites vandalising this statue are.

I don't think anybody is questioning their stupidity. It's clearly there painted in white and red.

weird

marcsignal wrote: »

well said dlofnep, i'm glad someone got in the voice of reason before we had another AH nazi scare story on our hands, seems to be quite fashionable lately.





Sean Russel would not have been aware of, or be otherwise influenced by the Holocaust, because it didn't begin until over a year after he died in 1940. It's the reaction by Republicans and Anti Fascists to his sidekick Frank Ryan, the other IRA nazi 'collaborator' that puzzles me. Russles statue is vandalised, and Ryan is revered as a hero of the Irish Republican cause.



and Frank Ryan

Frank Ryan and Sean Russel were both on the payroll of the Nazi Mititary Intelligence organization, the 'Abwehr'. Their Abwehr codenames were "Richard 1" and "Richard 2". They were both instrumental in the Nazi plan to invade Ireland, and in securing weapons for the IRA. Sean Russell died of natural causes, in a German U-Boat (U-65) en route to Ireland from Germany with Frank Ryan, on August 14th 1940, and was buried at sea 100 miles of the west coast, wrapped in a Swastika Flag.

Frank Ryan returned to Germany in the same boat, and lived out his days there, dying in a Military Hospital of a stroke in June 1944. From August 1940 to June 1944 Ryan didn't appear to be anxious to return to Ireland, and didn't seem to have a problem taking nazi money during this time, while he was swanning around Germany at the Abwehr's expence. Its funny that the Irish Anti-Fascist Action website has this picture of him proudly in their gallery Section, as well as a picture of his gravestone in Glasnevin cemetry Dublin (in case some twat feels like vandalising it??).



True, the Germans dropped bombs on Ireland 16 times. In most cases aircraft jetissoned bombs to get away from RAF fighters, or to save fuel on returning from bombing the North. However navigating a WW2 bomber was like doing a trigonometry exam in the dark with someone shooting at you, so navigational errors were a distinct possibility. A strong headwind from the North East would have caused huge problems for a navigator coming from Germany to bomb targets in Northern Ireland, causing him to fall short of Belfast and sight Dublin by mistake.

In short, if someone's going to vandalise Sean Russels statue, they ought to be vandalising Frank Ryans grave too, he was also up to his nose in dealings with the nazis.

Ughhn! FTW!

marcsignal

weird wrote: »

Ughhn! FTW!

i assume that's a comeback would you care to elaborate ??

General Zod

Frank Ryan and Sean Russel were both on the payroll of the Nazi Mititary Intelligence organization, the 'Abwehr'.

Frank Ryan had the option of escape to Germany or getting shot by Franco's forces. the Abwehr thought he might be useful against the british, but any time he was approached about it (or what exactly his involvement with the Republican forces in Spain were) his deafness would get worse. Strange that.


Frank Ryan was in the International Brigade, not exactly prime Nazi material.

asdasd

Meanwhile I'd like to point out that Seán Russell, having died on 14 August 1940, "collaborated" with "the Nazis" for 11 months and 11 days longer than the British government did.

And ten months less than Stalinists.

ilkhanid

yeahsure wrote: »

...and inventing that and never seeing that the reason behind this is because they didn't have to suffer centuries of oppression where their very language was beaten out of them!!

Well, some might say it was. By the Normans.

yeahsure wrote: »

Now i dont want to tar all brits with the same brush,im addressing the one's that know who they are,the very same ones that will focus all their attention on the likes of this stupid statue and come to the conclusion that the irish were nazi collaberaters...this in itself i find hilarious as we were still being downdrodden by the brits at the time!

I don't recall any Brits giving a damn about the statue, or even knowing of its existence. They vandalized the statue?
Still downtrodden? i have'nt noticed?

marcsignal

General Zod wrote: »

Frank Ryan had the option of escape to Germany or getting shot by Franco's forces. the Abwehr thought he might be useful against the british, but any time he was approached about it (or what exactly his involvement with the Republican forces in Spain were) his deafness would get worse. Strange that.

escape ?? rescued more like.

from wiki & The Shamrock and the Swastika, page 114

On October 1938 Ryan was visited in Burgos Prison by the Irish Minister to Spain, Leopold Kerney. Kerney hired a lawyer for Ryan, (Jaime Michel de Champourcin, paid for by the Irish government), but in spite of all his efforts, could not secure his release. It was through de Champourcin's contacts with Abwehr chief Wilhelm Canaris, and within the Franco Government that saw Ryan released into Abwehr hands on 15 July 1940.* The handover took place on the Spanish border at Irun-Hendaye. A cover story that Ryan had "escaped" was released at the time. Ryan was taken to the Spanish border by Madrid based Abwehr agent Wolfgang Blaum and handed over to Sonderführer Kurt Haller. From the border, Ryan was first taken to the resort town of Biarritz then on to Paris where he received several days hospitality courtesy of the Abwehr. He was then transported to Berlin, and reunited with Seán Russell on 4 August 1940.

*The Irish Government did make efforts on Ryan's behalf, including the commutation of his death sentence to 30 years hard labour and brokering of a deal via de Champourcin, Abwehr, German Foreign Ministry and Franco whereby Ryan could be released on condition he never returned to Spain again. The theory also exists that Seán Russell had made attempts to pressurise the Germans into having Ryan released.

General Zod wrote: »

Frank Ryan was in the International Brigade, not exactly prime Nazi material.

So why didn't he get the captain of the U-65 to drop him off at Lahinch in a rubber dingy so he could rejoin the fight against the Brits here, when Russel died in the U-Boat off the west coast in August 1940?? Hardly an impossible task, considering both He and Russel were en route to be landed in Ireland at the time anyway.

I'm not doubting his role in the Spanish civil war, it was well known in the Abwehr too, but tolerated under the circumstanses. In fact on his death bed (in a German SS military hospital), he was raving and shouting orders in Spanish as if he was still commanding a unit of the Spanish Brigade, much to the confusion of the staff treating him.

I'm simply highlighting his ability to run with the hares and hunt with the hounds.

I think it is just thick of some people who do this and i think its just an excuse for vandalising and tring to make a statement and maybe get a bit of fame from their peers.
He was just very pro Irish . My bet he was pro Irish then the people who vandalised it .

marcsignal

monkeyfudge wrote: »

I've cleared this with the mods...

The radio station I'm involved in, Near 90 fm, is issuing a challenge to the protagonists involved.

To the invisible (anti-fascist) opposition we are offering an opportunity to have your views of Russell heard and perhaps even vindicated.

To the National Graves Association, we are affording an opportunity to demonstrate why Séan Russell should be commerated as a national hero and not villified as a Nazi collaborator.

To the area's public representatives we are offering an opportunity propose solutions to this long-running and increasingly bitter dispute.

More info here:
http://near.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=120

Have any of the defenders of this escapade actually taken up monkeyfudges' challenge here ??

I for one, would be interested to hear their explaination for all this :pac:

PK2008

marcsignal wrote: »

Have any of the defenders of this escapade actually taken up monkeyfudges' challenge here ??

I for one, would be interested to hear their explaination for all this :pac:

NEAR fm is still going:eek:

They used to play all the old skool rave choons

monkeyfudge

marcsignal wrote: »

Have any of the defenders of this escapade actually taken up monkeyfudges' challenge here ??

We did have a response very quickly actually. Will let you all know when a feature has been done on it.

Worth noting I have nothing whatsoever to do with the production, I'm just trying to put the message out there.

I noticed this morning the swastikas have been painted over, but the red background and white circle remains. Perfect if a science fiction fan wants to drop in the alien symbol from V.

marcsignal

monkeyfudge wrote: »

I noticed this morning the swastikas have been painted over, but the red background and white circle remains. Perfect if a science fiction fan wants to drop in the alien symbol from V.

ROFL !! Or something like This

ilkhanid

Deleted User wrote: »

He was just very pro Irish . My bet he was pro Irish then the people who vandalised it .

Oddly enough the actual Irish-as opposed to the idealized Irish beloved of the IRA-didn't seem to appreciate this. Most of them perversely maintained their allegiance to the elected parties of FF, FG and Labour, ignoring Mr. Russell who knew what was good for them, even if they didn't :rolleyes:

Mr. Presentable

starn wrote: »

The statue should not of been replaced Sean Russell after it was vandalised.

Can you write this in English, please?