Is Toireasa Ferris correct about SFs place in the "26 counties"?

mike65

The gunrunners daughter was on RTE News yesterday and she had a few things to say about SFs stalled electoral fortunes and what needs doing.

Audio clip - copy and paste in player of your choice
http://dynamic.rte.ie/av/209-2577780-396-0-t.smil

Her comments in the audio about perception are correct but she doesn't address the obvious need for a solution. Still I doubt she dares float the idea of Adams standing down.

The below is from http://www.anphoblacht.com/news/detail/38507

"If we are honest with ourselves we will admit that the majority of those who we need to put a 1 or a 2 after our logo on a ballot paper unfortunately see us as a Northern-based party, irrelevant to the everyday concerns of people in the 26 Counties."

"After more than a decade working for the party down this end of the country, it hurts to say it but the fact is – Sinn Féin simply means nothing to the bulk of people in the South. We therefore need to stop asking ourselves ‘Why don’t more people vote for us?’ and start asking ‘What must we do to win people’s support?’"

"This debate needs to take place now. It’s more than four weeks since the election and we, the activists, are waiting. The party is suffering an identity crisis – what are we trying to achieve in the 26 and what do we stand for besides a united Ireland? We can’t afford to wait any longer to answer these questions."

Should SF "think south" if they want to gain a greater foothold in state? Seems to me they have no choice.

sceptre

I didn't listen to the interview, though if there's a transcript I can skim-read I'll have a look.

mike65 wrote: »

Should SF "think south" if they want to gain a greater foothold in state?

Short answer: yes. People are always less likely to vote for a party if they think the leadership is looking in a direction away from them. Given that the executive power has been with the northerners for the past forty years, it's entirely reasonable that people have that perception. Having said that, as long as people have the impression that the settlement of the Northern Ireland question in a manner that would suit SF is the issue that would override everything regardless of the relative importance of other issues in the short or long run, they'll always be a fringe party. Then again, that's part of the process of thinking south in addition to thinking north.

The occasional presentation of the party as the only 32 county party is a waste of time. No votes to be gained except from those who were going to vote for them anyway. Could be useful if presented as part of the across the divide/bridge-building party but they need better PR and 25 years to carry that off. If they're prepared to go through that rehabilitation and growth process for 25 years, it might be worth it but they'll have to be more aware than they've ever been in the past that aiming for what you decided you wanted doesn't do well in a goalpost-moving environment like modern politics. They need to learn that if they want to come to power.

They've got fundamental PR problems. They need better personnel. They need to carry on by getting the old staunch crew sidelined without them knowing they're sidelined (as if they do SF have a near-century-long tradition of foot-stamping and Ard Fheis splitting). Without that it doesn't matter where they're looking or thinking.

I've a far longer list but if I type it all out it's veering towards helping a political party and well, I haven't picked one yet (and at the rate I'm going I'm less likely to pick one as time goes by).

mike65 wrote: »

The gunrunners daughter

That doesn't exactly narrow it down:)

gurramok

Adams seems to be out of touch. McGuinness looks to be the wise guy. They have indeed seemed to have drafted in politicians based on less than substance in ROI in order to appeal to upper class types.

If one thinks about it, SF have increased popularity in the ballot box up north on their priniciples but have stagnated down south due to neglect fom principles. Think Ms Ferris might be onto something

johnnyskeleton

Toireasa Ferris wrote:

"After more than a decade working for the party down this end of the country, it hurts to say it but the fact is – Sinn Féin simply means nothing to the bulk of people in the South.

Rose tinted glasses if I've ever seen them. Sinn Fein are going to have to put in a lot of hard work before they will even mean nothing to me. From what I've heard (forgetting about Northern Ireland, from as far South as Kerry) I not only have no reason to vote for SF, but I have good reason to vote against SF.

gurramok wrote: »

They have indeed seemed to have drafted in politicians based on less than substance in ROI in order to appeal to upper class types.

It's not quite that - they have drafted in people with clean histories and sufficient denability to stand on their soap box and act like they are the same as any other political party. I doubt SF could ever appeal to the upper class types, in the same way that they will never appeal to the developers, farmers and FF acolytes.

gurramok wrote: »

If one thinks about it, SF have increased popularity in the ballot box up north on their priniciples but have stagnated down south due to neglect fom principles. Think Ms Ferris might be onto something

As notional socialists, their principles will never be accepted by a country as traditionally conservative as Ireland. But real socialists too have reason not to vote for them.

IIMII

She has a very good point.. The 6 county tail in Sinn Féin unfortunately wags the 26 county dog. That might work during a war situation, not much good when your aspiration is to be a real national party

Joey the lips

Toiresa is correct in that the evening herald has always published stories the way they like. Toresa ferris is correct in that the party needs to garner more southern support but its my opion they have achieved this with Mary Lou MacDonad who is party vice president. I dont blame this on the party. I blame this on media coverage of dublin sinn fein publicity. Ferris is right in saying sinn fein have been calling for nationalisation of banks for years! but did everybody know this! No!

But i suspect that the op does not really care and further suspect this is just another anti sinn fein thread. Is it correct to refere to pat rabbit as a gun runner or sean haughy as the son of a gun runner! Yes it is, but is it done, no, why not cause its anchient history but the sad thing about anti republician threads is this

One the op does not care really

Two the op only generates support for other causes like RIRA and CIRA.

So keep up the good work!


On the subject of where the party is going this is actually interesting I wondered that myself. Its a hard one to gauge. The problem with sinn fein is it tries to be a radical party and lovely I think but does every party try to be radical. The differerece in sinn fein and let say fianna fail is Sinn fein are more socialist. But having said that are they extrame socialist! I dont think not. Granted there speel on free health care and education for all to all levels is something I would love I think this is the level of politics that the normal joe soap aspires to.

Most southerns are not anti 32 county irish. I just think they are local in there views. People are more preoccuplied with the slice of bread on the table than the politician on the tele. This is what sinn fein need to achieve. They need to make people realise that change is really in there hands!

This is a challange sinn fein have been fighting years but it is a challange that continues! It has been my opinion that Fianna Fail has been the only party that is loosing support. Although sinn fein lost seats I honestly believe this is because a low turn out in there areas.

GerardKeating

IIMII wrote: »

She has a very good point.. The 6 county tail in Sinn Féin unfortunately wags the 26 county dog. That might work during a war situation, not much good when your aspiration is to be a real national party

Also calling the "Republic of Ireland" the "26 Countries" kind of implies we are not a real country and is (to me) very insulting.

turgon

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I not only have no reason to vote for SF, but I have good reason to vote against SF.

Just what I was going to say. Sinn Fein to me dont symbolize a party with Northern leadership. They symbolize a party that is ok with terrorism. And this will never be satisfactory.

Joey the lips

Like i said folks another anti sinn fein thread! Any one for cornflakes or can we actually discuss the merits of her comments.

It would help if the An p article link was read first cause there is a bit more insight into her thinking

Joey the lips

GerardKeating wrote: »

Also calling the "Republic of Ireland" the "26 Countries" kind of implies we are not a real country and is (to me) very insulting.

Our constitution done the same under develare and michael collins so who are you really insulted by is it sinn fein Fine Gael or Fine Fail.

As for sinn fein refering it to the 26 counties. As they are a 32 county party who represents in 2 govt I though this a quite clever way of preventing destraction of people from there cause of a "United Ireland"

turgon

Joey the lips wrote: »

Like i said folks another anti sinn fein thread!

Ye see, Im not specifically anti-Sinn Fein. Im just anti-terrorism, surprisingly enough. And Sinn Fein sympathize with terrorists.

Erin Go Brath

GerardKeating wrote: »

Also calling the "Republic of Ireland" the "26 Countries" kind of implies we are not a real country and is (to me) very insulting.

You partitionist types are a sensitive bunch.

slimjimmc

GerardKeating wrote: »

Also calling the "Republic of Ireland" the "26 Countries" kind of implies we are not a real country and is (to me) very insulting.

But legally there is no state called the "Republic of Ireland", it's Éire or Ireland. Look at any offical documentation such as an Irish passport. I'm sure SF don't want to use the official title as that refers to a separate country from NI and reinforces the feeling of partiton.

Sand

Rose tinted glasses if I've ever seen them. Sinn Fein are going to have to put in a lot of hard work before they will even mean nothing to me. From what I've heard (forgetting about Northern Ireland, from as far South as Kerry) I not only have no reason to vote for SF, but I have good reason to vote against SF.

+1

There seems to be a real problem for them in that they cant grasp that people dislike them on a basic level. That talk of policies and so on is just rearranging the deck chairs when their core morality is so repulsive to so many people.

Ferris in particular is part of the problem. She refused to condemn the murder of a Garda during the recent election. Provos need to ask themselves why did she do that and did she think that was going to win her votes, or lose them? Do they think that disconnect from the average voters basic morality is a vote winner?

The Provos need to address their core morality. When a Provo starts lecturing people on violence against women, or greedy tax cheating bankers, or the need for honesty and openess in politics why do they think most peoples reaction is to reach for the sick bucket?

The reactions on this thread already demonstrate that it will be a long, long, long time before the Provos are able to seriously examine what they are doing wrong. I am pretty sure it will be resolved that its not the Provos fault no one likes them, its the voters fault, or maybe the meejia's fault.

Best thing about that article is this part:

The worst thing this party could do would be to circle the wagons and shy away from the debate we need to have. So hopefully someone will take up this challenge and I can start going to sleep at night and focus on enjoying myself during my time off.

LOL - Thats exactly what she is advocating. Circle the wagons, hunker down as a fringe party and avoid any real debate on why they can enter an election with all the right policies, with a wave of anger against the government and still do poorly for such conditions.

sceptre

GerardKeating wrote: »

Also calling the "Republic of Ireland" the "26 Countries" kind of implies we are not a real country and is (to me) very insulting.

It's an idiomatic phrase and definitely wouldn't have insulted you if you didn't want to be insulted by it. You can start that discussion in a different thread (call it "why I'm insulted by the phrase '26 counties'" if you like) but this is not the place for a thread-tangent, which will cause this thread to go down the toilet like so many others on similar topics.

That goes to all of you, though that should go without saying.

turgon wrote: »

Ye see, Im not specifically anti-Sinn Fein. Im just anti-terrorism, surprisingly enough. And Sinn Fein sympathize with terrorists.

How about one discussion involving the shinners where this isn't brought up in the first twenty seconds? Let's all try it and see if it creates a reasonable discussion. It's not as though we don't all know about their liaisons and connections and to save time, it's now been mentioned so we can skip everyone else doing it (out of fairness I'll pick one thread in the future and do the same for the loyalists with the dodgy connections to see if a reasonable discussion is possible, absent idiocy). Let's call it an experiment in keeping my sanity. It might be fun.

futurehope

The best thing SF can do is to retire all 'ex-combatants'. Maybe even remove them from the party eventually.

turgon

sceptre wrote: »

How about one discussion involving the shinners where this isn't brought up in the first twenty seconds? Let's all try it and see if it creates a reasonable discussion.

With respect, Sinn Feins attitude to terrorism is probably one of the most influential policies, in terms of shaping SF's "place in the '26 counties.'"

MysticalRain

That doesn't make any sense to me either. It's kind of like trying to discuss Fianna Fails recent electoral failures without mentioning the party's links to property developers.

Samildánach

turgon wrote: »

Just what I was going to say. Sinn Fein to me dont symbolize a party with Northern leadership. They symbolize a party that is ok with terrorism. And this will never be satisfactory.

How do they symbolize a party that is "ok with terrorism" with slogans like "Equality" and a "Better future"? Yes they had/have members that were involved with paramilitary activity during one of the most violent periods (and the most devastated region) in Ireland, but that still dosent mean the concept and principles of the party symbolize terrorism.

If you've read anything about the conflict in the North, you'll realise Gerry Adams played a central role in politicizing Irish Republican ambitions for a United Ireland and in taking part in talks with their opposition. Talking not bombing. In fact, I would nearly go as far as quoting Tim Pat Coogan (historian and expert on the whole matter, I would advise you read his work) by calling Adams a "peacemaker".

If your going to be so blatantly biased and fueled to demeane them (not that there is anything wrong with opposing their ability as a party), at least review the actual evidence.

Liam Byrne

Her comment that she's worked "for the party", rather than "for the public" says it all.

The party demands that she doesn't condemn the murder of McCabe. The public demands that she does.

The direct result of this:

The party supports her. The public doesn't.

And while Sceptre's request...

How about one discussion involving the shinners where this isn't brought up in the first twenty seconds? Let's all try it and see if it creates a reasonable discussion.

....is reasonable on first glance, the FACT of the matter is that Toireasa's "why do people hate us ?" is INEXTRICABLY linked to her & SF's stated view on terrorism and murder.

The reason why this is repeatedly pointed out is because it's a fact.

If and when THEY change their views, we will.

And if they don't, we won't.

It's simple, really.

Liam Byrne

Samildánach wrote: »

In fact, I would nearly go as far as quoting Tim Pat Coogan (historian and expert on the whole matter, I would advise you read his work) by calling Adams a "peacemaker".

If your going to be so blatantly biased and fueled to demeane them (not that there is anything wrong with opposing their ability as a party), at least review the actual evidence.

Care to comment on Gerry's view of his namesake's murder, and then still call him a "peacemaker" ? :rolleyes:

sceptre

I could insist but then the above wasn't a mod request, I'm not inclined towards insisting on this one and it's easier if I just label everyone in my head (no, really, I have - assume it was a test and that you failed). That's traditional for a Northern Ireland thread anyway. It could have been an interesting intelligent thread, I'll alert the kitchen staff to prepare the close button procedure for later when it becomes desirable as soon as everyone's had a go at using their stock of rhetoric.

turgon

Well to be honest sceptre, perhaps if you tried to start a proper discussion on this, for example by trying to detemine whether Sinn Feins economic policies are feasible, we might get something of a proper debate. But you cant simply say to us "dont discuss terrorism and we'l see how that goes - begin!" without making an attempt yourself.

oncevotedff

Poor Theresa, first she can't understand why the bold men put her daddy in jail for 10 years and now she can't understand why nobody will vote for her party.:p

sceptre

turgon wrote: »

Well to be honest sceptre, perhaps if you tried to start a proper discussion on this, for example by trying to detemine whether Sinn Feins economic policies are feasible, we might get something of a proper debate. But you cant simply say to us "dont discuss terrorism and we'l see how that goes - begin!" without making an attempt yourself.

That's fair enough as criticism goes. Though as you'll note, the second longest post on this thread came from me - it's the second post on the thread so it's easy to spot, even with that biblical speck or plank in my eye. I always suspected that no-one ever spotted my posts unless I topped a thousand words.

I'll even quote myself:

sceptre on the previous page, at least half-making an attempt wrote: »

Short answer: yes. People are always less likely to vote for a party if they think the leadership is looking in a direction away from them. Given that the executive power has been with the northerners for the past forty years, it's entirely reasonable that people have that perception. Having said that, as long as people have the impression that the settlement of the Northern Ireland question in a manner that would suit SF is the issue that would override everything regardless of the relative importance of other issues in the short or long run, they'll always be a fringe party. Then again, that's part of the process of thinking south in addition to thinking north.

The occasional presentation of the party as the only 32 county party is a waste of time. No votes to be gained except from those who were going to vote for them anyway. Could be useful if presented as part of the across the divide/bridge-building party but they need better PR and 25 years to carry that off. If they're prepared to go through that rehabilitation and growth process for 25 years, it might be worth it but they'll have to be more aware than they've ever been in the past that aiming for what you decided you wanted doesn't do well in a goalpost-moving environment like modern politics. They need to learn that if they want to come to power.

They've got fundamental PR problems. They need better personnel. They need to carry on by getting the old staunch crew sidelined without them knowing they're sidelined (as if they do SF have a near-century-long tradition of foot-stamping and Ard Fheis splitting). Without that it doesn't matter where they're looking or thinking.

I've a far longer list but if I type it all out it's veering towards helping a political party and well, I haven't picked one yet (and at the rate I'm going I'm less likely to pick one as time goes by).

mike65

While I did open this thread with a cheap (if factualy correct) shot, it was intended to open a line of proper discussion.

Joey the lips

mike65 wrote: »

Whiel I did open this thread with a cheap (if factualy correct) shot, it was intended to open a line of proper discussion.

Just answer me one question. Opening a thread with a cheap shot

a. Usually generates a massive amount of discussion

b. Generates the you said he said crap usually associated with these threads

c. Makes the mods close the thread in one page


Oh and for the record. Sinn fein never failed in supporting the PIRA. In fact a large no of IRA men are now in sinn fein. Oh and as for Gerry McCabe(RIP) its never going to happen!

But one thing is for sure! Sinn fein is not going! There is only 2 real socialist partys in Ireland and yes they are one. Those on here who STRONGLY say that are not going to vote for them will never change there mind and guess what the crap that comes about will never elighten anyones either

So we can either have a nice political discussion about the economic policies of Daithe Doolin around Ringsend or Ms Ferris in the Ring, we can continue to spout and defend attack the "There supporters of the IRA" crap

With these types of thread the IRA will never go away!

Sand

How do they symbolize a party that is "ok with terrorism" with slogans like "Equality" and a "Better future"?

Because they are slogans....jesus.

The reality is no Provo will ever condemn the Provo campaign, even the "unofficial" actions such as the murder of Garda McCabe. Every other single political party of any note in the Republic would have condemned the murder of Garda McCabe when asked. Ferris couldnt.

She needs to examine why she couldnt condemn it. The Provos need to examine why she couldnt condemn it.

Thats the reason they cant break out of the fringe support.

....is reasonable on first glance, the FACT of the matter is that Toireasa's "why do people hate us ?" is INEXTRICABLY linked to her & SF's stated view on terrorism and murder.

This is inescapeably true. The Provos could come out with a perfectably agreeable program for government and I still wouldnt vote for them so long as they remain incapable of condemning Garda McCabes murder. I would guess ( based on my own opinion and electoral results) that the vast majority of Irish people are of the same instinctive view. The ball is in the Provos court, not ours.

This is something Ferris and the Provos need to grasp. It is not us. It is you that is the problem.

Oh and for the record. Sinn fein never failed in supporting the PIRA. In fact a large no of IRA men are now in sinn fein. Oh and as for Gerry McCabe(RIP) its never going to happen!

Which is why the Provos will never move beyond fringe support, and even the suggestion that a proper political party might deal with the Provos will be a slur on that party and a political liability in terms of votes. Bertie flew a kite, and quickly disowned it at the reaction invoked. The FG electoral director flew a kite, and was practically ejected from the party such was the reaction. The Provos are about as politically popular as Stormfront.

dlofnep

It has a foothold in the north as the largest political party, but yes - there is work to be done in the south for sure. SF does still, and always will have a strong grassroots movement in the 26 - and councillors at local levels are always strong within communities - The votes are not reflecting this.

As for this "Supporter of terrorism" nonsense, pull the other one. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The acts of American and Britain could be classified as terrorism, but no one dares bring that up when discussing other parties inviting British & American politicians to Ireland and shaking their hands. SF activists can relate to other struggles around the world, where high-end forces are oppressing the native population (Gaza/Israel for example - Where similarily, in the 6 counties - Irish people were routinely murdered by British troops, or oppressed, where civil inequality was upheld. There is always context which fails to appear in any of these type threads).

As for Jerry McCabe? So what? What has Toiréasa got to do with it? Why should she condemn the killers? She wasn't involved with it and was a kid when it happened. SF as a party did not organise it. It has little bearing on Toiréasa's political views. It's just another example of attempting to use something, that has absolutely nothing to do with the person in question - to try and taint them.

Sand

As for Jerry McCabe? So what? What has Toiréasa got to do with it? Why should she condemn the killers? She wasn't involved with it and was a kid when it happened. SF as a party did not organise it. It has little bearing on Toiréasa's political views. It's just another example of attempting to use something, that has absolutely nothing to do with the person in question - to try and taint them.

The reality is no Provo will ever condemn the Provo campaign, even the "unofficial" actions such as the murder of Garda McCabe. Every other single political party of any note in the Republic would have condemned the murder of Garda McCabe when asked. Ferris couldnt.

She needs to examine why she couldnt condemn it. The Provos need to examine why she couldnt condemn it.

Never change lads, never change...

dlofnep

There is no onus on her to condemn it. Absolutely none whatsoever. If she was involved, or her family was involved, or SF was involved - then maybe.. But none of the above are true.

If your biggest gripe with Toiréasa is the fact that she doesn't feel an onus to condemn something she, nor her party had anything to do with - then I'd say she's doing well.