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Is Toireasa Ferris correct about SFs place in the "26 counties"?

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    #32
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    dlofnep wrote: »
    As for Jerry McCabe? So what? What has Toiréasa got to do with it? Why should she condemn the killers? She wasn't involved with it and was a kid when it happened. SF as a party did not organise it. It has little bearing on Toiréasa's political views. It's just another example of attempting to use something, that has absolutely nothing to do with the person in question - to try and taint them.

    Absolute crap of the highest order.

    When 9/11 happened, loads of people (rightly) condemned it, whether they had anything to do with it OR NOT.

    If something's despicable, then you condemn it. Otherwise people - (equally rightly) judge you based on the lack of condemnation.

    Did Toireasa and Sinn Fein condemn 9/11 ? If so, your point is COMPLETELY moot and irrelevant.


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    #33
    Time Magazine
    Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭Time Magazine


    dlofnep wrote: »
    There is no onus on her to condemn it. Absolutely none whatsoever.

    That's your problem. Can you not see that?


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    #34
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    When 9/11 happened, loads of people (rightly) condemned it, whether they had anything to do with it OR NOT.

    They did, out of free choice. Nobody is forced to condemn anything. There is no onus on her to do it. That's the real issue here. No other politician is constantly quizzed about this issue as much as Toiréasa.. I'm sure dozens of Irish politicians didn't condemn the murder - Not because they didn't find the acts wrong, but that they just didn't get around to it. The fact that this consistently gets thrown in her face - I wouldn't blame her for her stubborn stance.

    So consistently bringing this issue up with a girl who is no way involved with it has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on her political career. You'd swear she was the one shooting guns the amount of nonsense spun around this.

    Move on. Why not discuss real issues, instead of beating a dead horse that has absolutely no relation to the girl in question. Instead of debating her political ideologies - you dwell on something that's absolutely not related.

    Jerry McCabe is dead. It was terrible. I'm sure she thinks so too. But her condemnation or lack of condemnation is not the basis for her political career.


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    #35
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    The Economist wrote: »
    That's your problem. Can you not see that?

    I don't have a problem. I'm not fussed who condemns what. If they do so, good for them. It's not as if she was trying to justify the killing of Jerry McCabe. Then, we might have something to talk about.


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    #36
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,588 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Jerry McCabe is dead. It was terrible. I'm sure she thinks so too. But her condemnation or lack of condemnation is not the basis for her political career.

    And thats why the Provos will be a fringe party, even when conditions are all set up for them. Ferris is scratching her head wondering.. what went wrong?

    There is your answer. If you want to sabotage the Provo candidate who is trying to "move on" and talk about their wonderful new policies it is very simple. Just ask them to condemn a Provo murder of a Garda.

    They cant and will not do it. Ever. For every single voter out there, the refusal to do so when asked is a massive red flag. It highlights just how twisted and devoid of basic morality the Provos are. Provos are asked to do so because the interviewers know they wont.

    And the Provos are totally, utterly, completely blind to it. Even when its blatantly pointed out to them as in this thread they are incapable of grasping it. It is 2+2=5 territory for them. Does not compute.

    Like I said guys, never change.


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    #37
    Time Magazine
    Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭Time Magazine


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I don't have a problem. I'm not fussed who condemns what.

    Sand's nailed it.


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    #38
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Sand wrote: »
    And thats why the Provos will be a fringe party, even when conditions are all set up for them. Ferris is scratching her head wondering.. what went wrong?

    There is your answer. If you want to sabotage the Provo candidate who is trying to "move on" and talk about their wonderful new policies it is very simple. Just ask them to condemn a Provo murder of a Garda.

    They cant and will not do it. Ever. For every single voter out there, the refusal to do so when asked is a massive red flag. It highlights just how twisted and devoid of basic morality the Provos are. Provos are asked to do so because the interviewers know they wont.

    And the Provos are totally, utterly, completely blind to it. Even when its blatantly pointed out to them as in this thread they are incapable of grasping it. It is 2+2=5 territory for them. Does not compute.

    Like I said guys, never change.

    I just Sinn Féin on moving on, by their work on the ground - and not Toiréasa Ferris' condemnation or lack of of the killing of Jerry McCabe.

    Sinn Féin has engaged in a peace process, put pressure on the PIRA to disarm (which they have), have worked on cross-community projects to ease nationalist/unionist tensions and worked on behalf of worker rights for years.

    If your only basis for SF not moving on is on Ms. Ferris and Jerry McCabe, then that's your loss. Not mine. You seem to be the one stuck in 1970, not me. If you can't admit that SF as a party has moved on, then you're too far entrenched in your opinion for it to matter.


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    #39
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    The Economist wrote: »
    Sand's nailed it.

    No he didn't. He, and you just proved how shallow your opinion on SF is - when you overlook obvious great work done through the peace process, halting an armed struggle in Ireland and instead completely turn a blind eye to it.

    Jerry McCabe's killing is always worth discussing, and his death was wrong - but SF as a party had no involvement - and their work on the peace process should be the basis of judging whether they have moved on, and not a few words from the mouth of Ms. Ferris.


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    #40
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,588 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    If you can't admit that SF as a party has moved on, then you're too far entrenched in your opinion for it to matter.

    Every time they refuse to condemn a Garda's murder the Provos demonstrate that it is they who have not "moved on" and its they who are "too far entrenched".

    Everything else you mention is just window dressing. The reality is the basic morality of the Provos remain intact. The majority of Irish voters recognise that and are repulsed by it.

    Thats why the Provos are a fringe party. It is why they will always be a fringe party. I dont expect you to agree, as I noted already the Provos are incapable of recognising this. They flail around, searching for any excuse as to why they cannot make a breakthrough electorally bar the most obvious reason - their morality is wholly alien to Irish voters.


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    #41
    Time Magazine
    Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭Time Magazine


    dlofnep wrote: »
    No he didn't. He, and you just proved how shallow your opinion on SF is.

    Again, this is your first problem. I don't care if SF "put pressure of the PIRA to disarm" (they shouldn't have had those links in the first place), I will not vote for them because I see them as a shower of morally bankrupt bastards.

    You see nothing wrong with refusal to condemn a murder. I do. I see it as absolutely disgusting and representative of the sort of blind-eye politics/warfare SF have been so associated with. So do about 90% of the population of Ireland. Perhaps we're all wrong. Even if we are, you're not going leave PD-territory unless you convince us otherwise.


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    #42
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    Toiresa is correct in that the evening herald has always published stories the way they like. Toresa ferris is correct in that the party needs to garner more southern support but its my opion they have achieved this with Mary Lou MacDonad who is party vice president.

    How has she garnered support? She lost them votes in Dublin, and when Nicky Keogh was pushed aside in order for her to be parachuted into an area where she had no history of activism she lost out miserably in that as well. Generally the woman is an unpopular politician, with a career that's nosediving. What Sinn Féin needs to do is move away from empty image constructs and back toward the radical politics and graft that made them popualr in the first place. The only problem is due to the inherent contradictions of that party, that won't happen at all.


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    #43
    Time Magazine
    Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭Time Magazine


    FTA69 wrote: »
    What Sinn Féin needs to do is move away from empty image constructs and back toward the radical politics

    No it doesn't. "Radical Sinn Féin politics" and "increased vote in the 26 counties" does not compute. 78% of the seats in the last GE went to the two centre-right parties, 90% if you include Labour as a "non-radical" party. Four Indos, the six Green Party TDs and the two PDs then went to bed with a centrist government, leaving the grand total of five TDs that could be considered "radical". Five TDs = 3% of the seats. That means 97% are amenable to centrist politics. Ireland does not have a "radical" vote.


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    #44
    JayeL
    Registered Users Posts: 385 ✭✭JayeL


    To be honest, Sinn Féin don't have to change if they don't want to. They've come a long way - from refusing to accept anything short of British withdrawl to accepting jobs where their email addresses end in ".gov.uk". So let's hear it for Sinn Féin finally having the vision to walk away from trying to blow up the link with Britain and adopting a democratic chisel and hammer. It took a lot of guts for them to get to where they are today, taking part in a (kinda) democratic system up there.

    However what Sinn Féin have failed and always will fail to recognise is that the Republic is a different country. We have different hopes and aspirations for ourselves. We don't depend as much on the state sector, we're a bit more capitalist, a bit less idealistic, a bit more realistic and a lot less sectarian or even what Sinn Féin would call "patriotic". What's more, I don't think I'm alone in not appreciating someone from across the border coming down here to tell us we should "Votáil No. 1". Nothing personal, like. You won't get many in the "South" (I always think those in the Inishowen Peninsula get a raw deal with that phrase!) admitting it, but "Nordies" are a little insufferable to many of us and an opinionated Nordie is even worse. Again, I'm not saying this is a good thing but it is a factor I think Sinn Féin, in their blind idealism, often miss. Installing Mary-Lou McDonald as VP was a good move on paper, but in fairness, she's painful to listen to on the radio, waiting to be interrupted/offended, and has no support base as the recent Dublin North Central by-election showed.

    Northern Ireland is a wounded society and many of those wounds are still raw, with the possibility of new wounds always around the corner. Sinn Féin would probably do well to stick it out up there and leave the remnants of Sinn Féin in the Republic to become a more electable party.

    One that could do something as human as condemn the shooting of a garda, for example.


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    #45
    rcecil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 78 ✭✭rcecil


    After studying the policy positions of the party I am happy to say that for the first time in my life I can vote for a party that represents me.

    Visit www.sinnfein.ie to read the positions that were brought forward and voted upon in the Ard Fheis by normal working people.

    correct on the environment
    correct on Lisbon
    correct on human rights
    correct on corruption
    correct on the theft of natural resources in Mayo
    correct on workers rights


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    #46
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Oh yes rcecil, Sinn Fein tick all the right boxes, & they have such a clean slate ;)


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    #47
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    dlofnep wrote: »
    There is no onus on her to condemn it. Absolutely none whatsoever. If she was involved, or her family was involved, or SF was involved - then maybe.. But none of the above are true.

    As a human being you'd think she could condemn it, whether there was an onus or not.

    I wasn't involved. I can condemn it. No problem. I don't need an onus. I just have a conscience and perhaps a family background that wasn't steeped in terrorism and gunrunning.

    Your talk of 'onus' is nonsense in a situation where any right thinking person would be repulsed by the depravity of what happened.

    As for discussing her ideology, here was the girl who didn't even know when Ireland joined the EU when asked. Pretty laughable. No doubt she can spew the Shinner rhetoric alright, but maybe knowing something about what she was running for would have helped.


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    #48
    Time Magazine
    Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭Time Magazine


    rcecil wrote: »
    correct on the environment
    The Sinn Féin website has seven sentences on environmental policy and, from what I can see, has no actual policies. It just says who will make the policies, not what they are.

    That's not very encouraging.
    correct on Lisbon
    It's hard to find Sinn Féín's actual policy on Lisbon from their website. However a search produced this, claiming "EU Agriculture policy has been bad for family farms." Given the size of the CAP, I wouldn't agree with this. It also complains about Lisbon because "Farmers need to be aware that passing the Lisbon Treaty will strengthen EU Trade Commissioner Peter Mandelson's hand as he attempts to dilute trade barriers."

    Do you want to comment more fully on Sinn Féin's views on trade barriers? Do you think blanket bans are good for Irish consumers? Do you think they are helpful to third-world farmers?
    correct on human rights
    Who, exactly, is wrong on human rights?
    correct on corruption
    They say they are, but so do Fianna Fáil. Martin Ferris served time for possession of firearms with intent to endanger life; Arthur Morgan served seven years for "IRA operations". We know what Aengus' mates like to get up to. That's the criminal history -- what don't we know?
    correct on the theft of natural resources in Mayo
    What theft? There was no theft. There were laws passed by Fianna Fáil.
    correct on workers rights
    I cannot find anything on the Sinn Féin website about this.


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    #49
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Miss Ferris might note that this IRA mug is advertised on the SF website!
    I'm sure this doesn't help 'their cause' amongst the good people of Ireland ...     iramug.jpg


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    #50
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    The Economist wrote: »
    I cannot find anything on the Sinn Féin website about this.

    I think the high participation within Unions across the country by SF activists reflects their ongoing efforts to protect workers rights. Look to the people, not to a website.


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    #51
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Camelot wrote: »
    Miss Ferris might note that this IRA mug is advertised on the SF website!

    SF selling PIRA merchandise? Who'da thunk it! Who cares? FG give away loads of Michael Collins merchandise, and he is himself guilty of the same things that the PIRA did. Never anything mentioned on that however.


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    #52
    super_furry
    Registered Users Posts: 27,324 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    And that is what it boils down to. The IRA and Sinn Fein are one and same and people can't forgive or forget the crimes of the IRA enough to vote for Sinn Fein.


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    #53
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    The Economist wrote: »
    Again, this is your first problem. I don't care if SF "put pressure of the PIRA to disarm"

    But you've previously stated that they have no moved on, with direct evidence stating otherwise. They either have moved on, with work to do - or they haven't moved on. Which is it?


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    #54
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    super_furry wrote: »
    And that is what it boils down to. The IRA and Sinn Fein are one and same and people can't forgive or forget the crimes of the IRA enough to vote for Sinn Fein.

    But yet, they are willing to forgive the crimes of Britain which happened in the same time-frame and move on. Go figure. Nobody said the IRA were perfect. They were the product of an environment of mass inequality and oppression. They have made some poor calls, but they were the only ones with the balls to take on the British forces when they were slaying Irish civilians on the streets on the 6 counties. Something, conveniently forgotten. Many elements within Fianna Fáil wanted to send troops into Derry during this period also. The community had no defense, and the IRA stood up.


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    #55
    IIMII
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭IIMII


    rcecil wrote: »
    After studying the policy positions of the party I am happy to say that for the first time in my life I can vote for a party that represents me.

    Visit www.sinnfein.ie to read the positions that were brought forward and voted upon in the Ard Fheis by normal working people.

    correct on the environment
    correct on Lisbon
    correct on human rights
    correct on corruption
    correct on the theft of natural resources in Mayo
    correct on workers rights
    I'd be happier with a description based on all Irish people (normal workers or not), and focused on national, economic and environmental advancement. I'd add social but I don't want it taken to mean I'm in favour of ideas like nationalisation of the banking system.


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    #56
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    dlofnep wrote: »
    and he is himself guilty of the same things that the PIRA did.

    I'm not sure I would ever confuse people like Michael Collins with scumbags like the Shinner/IRA gang that beat Robert McCartney to death and cut his throat as the coup de grace, or the fellows who gunned down Gerry McCabe.


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    #57
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I'm not sure I would ever confuse people like Michael Collins with scumbags like the Shinner/IRA gang that beat Robert McCartney to death and cut his throat as the coup de grace, or the fellows who gunned down Gerry McCabe.

    Perhaps you should read a bit more on the deeds of Michael Collins. Civilians died at a result of his orders. Neither Robert McCartney's murder or Jerry McCabes were by order of SF or the PIRA. You don't think rogue elements under the wing of Michael Collins didn't commit crimes? Is he responsible for them if they did? Also: Elements of FF supported the PIRA during the troubles with funds for weapons, to defend against loyalist attacks. No mention of this is ever brought up either.

    RE: Robert McCartney - I hope all who are involved are brought to justice. And those responsible are indeed scumbags. All those who were even remotely connected were expelled.


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    #58
    Time Magazine
    Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭Time Magazine


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I think the high participation within Unions across the country by SF activists reflects their ongoing efforts to protect workers rights. Look to the people, not to a website.
    "Visit www.sinnfein.ie to read the positions that were brought forward and voted upon in the Ard Fheis by normal working people", followed by a list of policy areas. I think it's fair to point out the website is lacking in detail.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    But you've previously stated that they have no moved on, with direct evidence stating otherwise. They either have moved on, with work to do - or they haven't moved on. Which is it?
    There is more than one dimension in the political sphere. They haven't really moved on in terms of economics because even though they don't quite spout Marxist bull**** anymore, they're still heavy on the socialist rhetoric. This has no bearing as to how they deal with decommissioning.

    They've moved on because they're no longer engaged in a war. Well done, two morality points for them. However they refuse to move to that stage on the morality ladder where they will condemn the brutal murder of a cop. They're still lagging far behind on that front.


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    #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Perhaps you should read a bit more on the deeds of Michael Collins.

    Don't assume you know more than me.

    For starters, I know there is a small difference between life in colonised Ireland under British rule and life in Adare in 1996. I know there is a difference between the conflict between Ireland and Britain in the War of Independance, and the conflict in the bar the night Robert McCartney was savagely assaulted.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    RE: Robert McCartney - I hope all who are involved are brought to justice. And those responsible are indeed scumbags.

    What was the onus for you to say that? Why did Toireasa need an 'onus'? Of course they are scumbags. Only the likes of her father would defend murderers.


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    #60
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    dlofnep wrote: »
    No other politician is constantly quizzed about this issue as much as Toiréasa.. I'm sure dozens of Irish politicians didn't condemn the murder - Not because they didn't find the acts wrong, but that they just didn't get around to it.

    And presto! Even when trying to imply the opposite, you've said it yourself. They didn't say it but the assumption is that they do "find the acts wrong"; they didn't have to say it for you to know that to the point that you included it as a caveat.

    If "they'd gotten around to it", or were asked it, the answer would be "of course it was wrong, despicable and should be condemned". You also admitted that above.

    Toireasa, on the other hand, doesn't give that impression, and so needs to be asked. And when asked, she answered incorrectly.

    It'd be like asking an FF member if they thought what the banks did was wrong.

    If they say "yes", they might manage to salvage a few votes.
    If they say "no", then they won't get voted for.

    No agenda, no prejudice; just a question that - because of their association - they get asked. And if they answer incorrectly they're - rightly - judged on that, because it shows their stance and if that stance doesn't represent the voters, then they can't represent those voters.

    And yes, I know some of them lie through their teeth in order to get votes, saying they condemn x, y & z while condoning and supporting a Government that continues to pander to the leeches. So in a way the words of a politician mean nothing - e.g. if Toireasa condemned it but was then photographed with the scumbags involved, then her condemnation would mean nothing.

    But it would be a refreshing change if someone who wants to make laws in (and for) this country actually stood up and said that they condemned the murder of the servant of the state during an illegal raid, and if her party didn't go visit them in jail for inclusion in their "newspaper".


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    #61
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    The Economist wrote: »
    "Visit www.sinnfein.ie to read the positions that were brought forward and voted upon in the Ard Fheis by normal working people", followed by a list of policy areas. I think it's fair to point out the website is lacking in detail.

    That's fair enough, but the work on the ground speaks a lot more than a website ever could. It should be noted that there is a new website up, so they are still putting up more details.

    The Economist wrote: »
    They've moved on because they're no longer engaged in a war. Well done, two morality points for them. However they refuse to move to that stage on the morality ladder where they will condemn the brutal murder of a cop. They're still lagging far behind on that front.

    That's fair enough. Point taken.


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