So many 'junkies'

carlop

whadabouchasir wrote: »

But that's just moving the problem somewhere else,it solves nothing.All you end up with is ghettos.At least when we see the junkies in the City people might actually be motivated to do something.

It solves nothing in the long-term, but in the short-term it will free the streets of our capital of the thousands of junkies who fill it every day, desperate for a fix and willing to do anything to get it.

Also, if you concentrate all heroin addicts in one place it makes it easier to access them and establish needle exchanges, teatment centres etc.

Acacia wrote: »

I don't agree with ''kicking the sh1t out of them'' though.

Yeah I phrased that badly I guess. I don't want to see junkies getting their head kicked in by gardai, what I meant was there has to be a major deterrent to stop them entering the city limits to score drugs.

This would obviously be better aimed at the dealers. If there was no heroin dealer to be found within the city centre, there would be far less heroin addicts on the boardwalk, talbot street etc.

whadabouchasir wrote: »

Like I said this would just create Ghettos.I think it would probably be unconstitutional as well to force someone to move for no reason other than they do drugs.If they mug people then just arrest them and send them to prison otherwise live and let live.

Yes it is unconstitutional and has many other flaws, such as where do you locate such an area where dealing will be tolerated. As I said above, the idea is taken from a TV programme so it is bound to have some flaws (btw, this is the only time I will associate The Wire with the word flaw). However, I believe in theory it makes sense.

Rather than waiting for a junkie to mug someone and then send them to prison, why not try and create a situation whereby it is less likely that the mugging ever takes place?

ihadu

i like the junkies, they help me feel better about myself

board om

Marc Dazzling Show wrote: »

Have you noticed that there are so many more heroin junkies around town lately?
In the last week I've even seen 2 diffeerent kids about 14 who were obviously heroin addicts- how sad.

The 'junkies' had always been congregating in specific areas around the city centre (spar on talbot st, the centra on o'connell st, basically anywhere with a clinic or hostel nearby) to buy and sell drugs and to generally hang out. they are places that they know they can always go to score or offload what ever they need. but recently the shop owners have been making big noise by regularly calling the Gardai and Radio Stations to complain about them hanging around and dealing outside their premises. so the Gardai have started moving them along and arresting them for loitering. also RTE had been videoing them around the Talbot St and Tara ST area and undercover reporters had been buying drugs from them. so these two things combined has left them with nowhere specific to do what ever it is they normally do there, and therefore they are spread out all over town. so instead of just seeing the odd large group of junkies that you used to see, you are now seeing lots of smaller groups instead. so it isnt that there are more of them, its just that they have spread out more.

Stev_o wrote: »

Dublin. Irelands biggest port. Drugs get imported. Port is within walking distance of city centre.

More economical for dealers to sell locally then have to ship them around the country.

This is complete rubbish. very few drugs are imported through dublin port in comparison to the rest of the country. Cork, West Cork in particular, has always been a big spot for importing. also Rosslare harbour would be another regularly used port.

the reason Dublin has always had such a big heroin problem is becuase back in the early eighties the Dunnes, who were a big criminal family at the time, were the first people ever to import heroin into ireland. and because they were based in inner city dublin, that is where the heroin was distributed. that led to the first generation of heroin addicts in ireland. a lot of the very old heroin addicts you see around dublin nowadays would have been from that era. and a lot of their kids would be the heroin addicts you see around town these days.

the dunnes would have been way ahead of their time and extremely ruthless, so a lot of the stories you hear, as unbelievable as they sound, are actually true. like dealing outside schools to get kids hooked, giving free samples out to get people to try it, getting girls who were strung out into debt to them so they could put them on the game, and throwing bags of gear into the letter boxes of houses belonging to junkies who were trying to get clean. nasty stuff like that.

they distributed in areas like crumlin, ballfermot, north and south inner city, etc and basically turned those areas into what you see today. luckily it stayed within dublin for decades and it is only in the recent years it has really hit the rest of the country. this is partly because dublin junkies started moving outside of dublin for various reasons, and with it they brought heroin which they could sell for a lot higher price in counties that didnt have a regular supply of it. once dealers from these counties saw a market for it they started importing it too so it became a regular fixture.

mikemac wrote: »

Why Turkish delights?
Foil wrapping?

I haven't a clue so interested to know

any sweets with a good piece of tinfoil can be used to smoke it, so turkish, caramels, etc. there are actually very few left. the adjustable lighters are needed because you need a very low flame to smoke heroin, and a very high flame to cook it to inject.

mikemac wrote: »

Interesting, I've heard of cafe's where you have to ask for vinegar for your table and they'll give it to you. And then remove it when you leave.

Something to do with junkies stealing the small bottles and use it for sterilizing needles.

Could be an urban myth, just something I was told once.

this is most likely urban myth.

Amalgam wrote: »

Heroin use leads to the following situation. See attached. Very common in Dublin, you don't get 'normal' lighting any more.

this lighting is useless anyway becuase any proper junky knows where their good veins are anyway so dark lighting isnt much of a problem. also a lot of jukies who are in a position that they need to use public toilets would be injecting into their groin so they use the same places each time so again the lighting isnt an issue.

but hey, it makes the restaurant or pub look like they are taking action.

Pop's Diner wrote: »

Actually I was curious. Does anyone here know of any heroin users who are functioning members of society? The stereotype definetly seems to be that every one of them are emaciated unemployed losers hanging around drinking their fanta orange and waiting to score their next hit. But I was wondering are there any users out there that, for example, hold down a job , pay rent, contribute to society etc?

Yes

Degsy wrote: »

Its not uncommon at all.
They usually call the tablets Napps(diomorphine) and they'll inject them quite happily when they cant score actual heroin.

Napps havent been available in a very long time. in fact most junkies these days wouldnt know what they were, except to have maybe heard about them from older generations. but they were very popular in their day. some junkies preferred them to heroin, and they cost the same as a bag of gear. but they werent diomorphine. i think you meant diamorphine which is a synthetic opiod very similar to heroin.

basically any tablets that are soluble can be and will be injected. dolmain would be a favourite, and any opiod that can be cooked up, like for instance oxycontin, codeine, etc. if it will dilute in water it will be injected.

meboloxitis wrote: »

Did you read the Brass Munkie magazine?

Here is one of the health warnings issued in the mag:

"THIS IS NOT A JOKE. DOG FLEA TABLETS HAVE ALSO BEEN SOLD
AS "BENZOS" AND A FEW PEOPLE HAVE BEEN RIPPED OFF WITH
THEM, SO AGAIN BE AWARE AND CAREFUL"

Woof Woof :eek:

they will sell anything they can get away with. and i mean anything. they were even selling warfarin as D10 valiums because they were the same size and colour. and warfarin is extremely dangerous if you dont know you are taking it. most junkies will take 10 or 20 D10 Valiums at one time, so to take that many warfarin could kill you. warfarin is basically rat poison that is given in very small doses to patients who have had blood clots. and i mean very small doses. so imagine what a handful of them would do to you.

they will also get benzos that are in capsules, empty the capsule and refill it with any white powdery substance, and then sell the refilled capsule. when i say they will try anything, i mean they will try ANYTHING.

meboloxitis wrote: »

Taken from issue of Brass Munkie magazine:

"ANA LIFFEY DRUGS PROJECT
WOMEN’S DROP IN ~ FRIDAY 10AM—12AM
A PLACE FOR WOMEN TO MEET EVERY FRIDAY MORNING FOR A CHAT AND A CUP OF TEA. IF YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN AND NEED A BIT OF COMPANY, OR EVEN JUST TO GET AWAY FROM "THE OTHER HALF" FOR A FEW HOURS COME ALONG.
CHILDREN ARE VERY WELCOME.
WE’RE AT 48 MIDDLE ABBEY STREET
(A BLUE DOOR ACROSS THE ROAD FROM THE BACK OF ARNOTTS)
WOMEN IN HOSTELS ARE PARTICULARLY WELCOME AS WE KNOW YOU REALLY NEED A BIT OF "YOU" TIME. THE WONDERFUL MIRANDA WILL TAKE GOOD CARE OF YOU
THE PROJECT HAS A DOCTOR WHO SITS ON WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON 2-4.THIS SERVICE IS OPEN TO BOTH MEN AND WOMEN AND IS FREE OF CHARGE TO ALL. NO MEDICAL CARD NECESSARY.
See you there."

And? this isnt just for drug addicts. this service is also for homeless people and battered wives. when they say hostel they dont only mean homeless hostel for junkies and alcoholics, they also mean the hostels where women and children who have been beaten up by their husbands go to hide out. so i think it is only fair they get somewhere to go for a cup of tea and they can bring their kids.

and for the drug adicts who do use it, the idea is to keep them clean and disease free, and to make sure they know how to inject properly and how to discard of their tools afterwards, so if some unsuspecting member of the public does come into contact with a discarded syringe it is less likely to be infected.

asdasd wrote: »

I like the idea of a rural retreat with free heroin. What is the issue there anyway. We give methadone, which is a drug, so why not heroin?

The legal issue I can imagine is that someone dies on the State's watch, someone who would have died on the street anyway. That would cause more do-goodery and litigation.

tbh there are probably as many methadone overdoses are there are heoin overdoses. it is just as lethal if not more so because it is free and readily available.

My name is URL wrote: »

Methadone is supposedly even more addictive than heroin, the difference is side-effects. Still, I don't agree with using one addictive substance to replace another

it isnt that methadone is more addictive. it is that it is more difficult to get off and the withdrawals are that much more severe. with heroin the worst physical pain of withdrawal is over in about 5 days, but with methadone it could take a month or more, and in that time you can have seizures. there is a higher possibility of dying going through withdrawals of methadone than with heroin. most treatment facilities will not takie you if you are detoxing from methadone because they know how difficult it is.

botom line is it is nasty horrible dangerous stuff and shouldnt be inflicted on anyone. a lot of junkies who go on a methadone programme will end up going back on heroin just to get off methadone.

Amalgam wrote: »

No offence, but the Gardai have to filter out a lot of that, including requests for help from the public. If they didn't, they'd be nursing smackheads all day, every day. They can't do anything until an offence is commited.

I think prison is a total waste for petty drug offences, either withdraw social benefit payments for a given period of time, force a review of benefits, or do something unique, remove petty assets, if they have any, their shoes, stereo, Sky cable.. TV.. anything that they can feel a tangible sense of loss towards.

if you take their shoes they will steal yours. if you take their assets they will steal yours. and if you take their sky cable then they are more likely to be bored and to go out robbing. i think if we gave them all a free subscription to cable and free drugs we would never see them outdoors again, except to buy their lighters and turkish delight.

carlop wrote: »

I think attempting to shift treatment centres away from the city centre, and therefore the junkies, away from the city centre is essential. Why don't the gardai strike up a 'gentlemen's agreement' with dealers and addicts?

Let them do whatever they want in a designated wasteland area of Dublin, but if any are caught within a designated city limit, let's say the canals, they will get the **** kicked out of them along with having the law enforced to its absolute maximum when dealing with them.

a junky going trhough withdrawal will walk to the ends of the earth to get a fix. no matter how far away that treatment centre is, they will find a way of making it back to civilization to score gear.

regarding letting them do what they want in designated areas, well im not going to say that is the case, but... it kind of is the case. there are certain areas around dublin where you can openly score gear, morning, noon, or night. everyone knows it goes on and every junky knows where their local area is, but it never seems to be a problem. and if the junkies or dealers leave these certain areas or try to expand, the garda will pick them up and bring them back into their area. im not saying the gardai let it happen, but it happens. i reckon they think it is better confined to smaller areas they know of and that can be managed, than scattered all over the place and completely unmanagable.

Acacia wrote: »

We have been seeing them there for 30 years and people haven't been motivated to do much about it yet. At least moving the centres out of the city centre would limit their ability to mug people, steal, etc.

this is how the likes of tallaght and west dublin got so bad in the first place. the council moving undesirables out of the city and housing them in the same housing estates. and before you know it they are joining together into gangs, and getting into gang wars with other areas. basically they become ghettos. this helps nobody.

Amalgam

Nice post board om, I really enjoyed the early heroin history part.

I forgot to add this earlier, the vinegar (or anything with citric acid, lemon juice too) is used to cook or condition the heroin before injection. I used to hang around the arcades in town and the few times I had the misfortune of needing to use the toilets, vinegar sachets everywhere.

I actually think Dublin has got better. As late as the mid 1990's, you could not walk after dark in certain areas where I lived. The women ('working women') that needed and used the drugs weren't the problem with being out and about, it was the men delivering the drugs, who'd happily snatch something off you or just commit a good old fashioned mugging. Scooters, motorbikes, bikes mostly.

board om

Amalgam wrote: »

Nice post board om, I really enjoyed the early heroin history part.

I forgot to add this earlier, the vinegar (or anything with citric acid, lemon juice too) is used to cook or condition the heroin before injection. I used to hang around the arcades in town and the few times I had the misfortune of needing to use the toilets, vinegar sachets everywhere.

I actually think Dublin has got better. As late as the mid 1990's, you could not walk after dark in certain areas where I lived. The women ('working women') that needed and used the drugs weren't the problem with being out and about, it was the men delivering the drugs, who'd happily snatch something off you or just commit a good old fashioned mugging. Scooters, motorbikes, bikes mostly.

Thanks Amalgam

yeah, the citric is to break down the gear for injection. there are 4 differnt types of heroin throughout the world and I think its mainly type 3 or 4 that we get in Ireland, i cant remember which. i know it mainly comes from afghanistan and turkey anyway. but this type wont cook up with just water so you need to add citric for it to cook. but you can also smoke the gear you get here. the stuff you get in the US can be cooked up without the need for citric, so with just water but it cant be smoke. well it can but you have to do some preperation first, so they pretty much dont bother.

anyway, nowadays they give out citric acid in the needle exchange or you can buy it in shops, but a few years ago it was a lot harder to come by so junkies used to use those gif lemons squuezy things, or oranges. but the problem was that using stuff like that ruins your veins, and i mean really ruins them. you couldnt pay me to use it. if you dont have proper citric then just smoke it cos along with the vein damage comes an unbelievable stinging pain that you wont forget in a hurry. also over time using the citric from lemon or oranges is supposed to damage your eyesight. someone i know used that gif squeezy lemon stuff that was about 2 years out of date and it was like his veins were glowing or something. you would swear he had injected radiation. i took my lesson from that so only ever use the citric sachet they give out in the needle exchange. even the sutff you can buy can be a bit iffy, so better to be safe than sorry.

i know what you mean about dublin in the nineties. i lived up by christchurch and you wouldnt walk around there at night. if you did you were nearly guaranteed to get mugged. or walking along the canal was like having a death wish. back then it wasnt unusual for someone to get mugged with a syringe but you dont hear about it as much anymore. i think robbing someone with a syringe is probably one of the most evil things someone could do. i would rather have a gun pulled on me.

g5fd6ow0hseima

asdasd wrote: »

The children born to addicts may be cause. No doubt, though, were we to take the children from the addicts, that too would generate controversy. We are doing nothing, because that is the easiest thing to do.

And if I were a politican I probably wouldnt change much either, public anger about junkies could easily change into a public anger about the treatment of junkies were we to get strincter - all it takes is a Joe Duffy show.

And do nothing about it but complain?

Acacia

whadabouchasir wrote: »

Like I said this would just create Ghettos.I think it would probably be unconstitutional as well to force someone to move for no reason other than they do drugs.If they mug people then just arrest them and send them to prison otherwise live and let live.

You seem to be confusing the issue (or I am, Lol.) As far I understand the suggestion was to move the treatment centres out of the city center, not where drug-users live (their apartments, houses.) I don't see how this could create ghettos. By all means, the facilities should be there to help people get out of the poverty cycle (including drug use). But that should not mean we sit complacently by allowing drug addicts the opportunity to mug and intimidate people to fund their habit. Like asdasd said earlier what's the point in paying for amenities like the boardwalk if people are too afraid to walk down it?

''Live and let live'' is a fine notion for letting people practice their religion, listen to whatever music they want , etc,etc. It should not be used as an excuse to allow people to commit ''anti-social behavior'' ( I hate that term but it's the only way I can describe the junkie lifestyle). It would be great if using an illegal drug like heroin didn't cause huge crime and health problems problems but it does. If moving them out of innocent people's way ( not just reducing muggings and the like, but also maybe there would less dirty syringes and things about the place), then so be it.

Maybe if a child you know got pricked with a dirty needle, or someone you know got mugged by a heroin addict you would really see what's unconstituional and what's not. I hope such things never happen to you, but they do happen to other innocent people on a daily basis. I know who my sympathies lie with.

Acacia

board om wrote: »

this is how the likes of tallaght and west dublin got so bad in the first place. the council moving undesirables out of the city and housing them in the same housing estates. and before you know it they are joining together into gangs, and getting into gang wars with other areas. basically they become ghettos. this helps nobody.

Sorry, just saw your reply now. I didn't mean actually moving them to live out in the middle of nowhere, I just meant to move the actual treatment centres out of the city to reduce drug-related crime.

I don't see drug users as 'undesirables' (I'm not that snobby, LOL) I'm just trying to think of a way that would lessen the damage potentially caused to innocent people as a result of a their drug abuse (muggings, etc.) and also provide help for addicts.

asdasd

And do nothing about it but complain?

Um, yeah. What exactly are you doing other than complaining?

The reason politicans wont touch this is because the Irish public can turn on a dime. A sob story about a Garda being cruel to a junkie ( sinegle mom etc. pushes a few buttons) and we all get angry at the right wing politicans. The desire to moral one-upmandship is strong in our tribe.

studiorat

Some good posts there. Was just wondering how much a habit costs these days? Anyone have any idea?

Regarding living with a habit, I suppose if you could get a regular supply of pharmacutical grade Heroin you could go on for years. But you will get problems with collapsed veins etc as you progress. Problem is that the street stuff is usually cut with other chemicals that don't dissolve in the blood.

Of course living with a gear habit is all well and fine until you loose your job or something else goes wrong. Then it all begins to go pear shaped very quickly...

2xj3hplqgsbkym

Very informative post board om. Any idea what can be done for the children of these addicts? For example if I see a child with a parent or parents who are obviously addicts and reported this to a Garda or Health Board, can they/will they do anything?

Now, in Portugal where for the last 9 years heroine has been legal, they've been having a spectacular decline in the number of junkies

Wow, I can't imagine that improving the situation here, however I don't think it's something that would ever be introduced in Irealnd.

Was just wondering how much a habit costs these days? Anyone have any idea?

Thankfully I havn't got a clue.

Odysseus

DubMedic wrote: »

That would be the last thing on a junkies mind, unfortunately.

.

Out of intererst why would you say that, whilst sharing it not a thing of the past and of course Hep C rates at about 75% for IV users. Most I know are quite good around that now. The falling down part is around spoons and filters, people forget about that.

The vinegar is use to cook the heroin, it won't dilute with just water.

However, with the range of needle exchanges around today, there is not need for people outside of prison to share works. Such needle exchanges not only give out works and spikes, critic acid to cook the heroin [little need for vinegar now], disposal spoons as well as condoms. The also give out a very expensive tin foil for smoking now, as the stuff we cover our lunchs with or Turkish delights as metioned gave off toxic fumes when used to smoke heroin. Now they are planning to give out crack pipes in exchanges as well for the same reason as the foil:o

Odysseus

grundie wrote: »

The thing about drug addicts is that they just don't care. Their addiction is more than just mental, it is physical. They feel as if they may die if they don't get their fix and that could actually happen. All they want is their fix and nothing, absolutely nothing, will get get in their way.

Withdrawal from heroin will not kill anybody, its uncomfortable yes, but the reality is in most cases it can be compared to a really bad case of the flu. You know the type that will put you in bad for about a week. The rest is more of a withdrawal phobia.

However, in Dublin a large % are also using benzos, i.e. valium withdrawal here can be more problematic people can experience fits during withdrawal. However, you still won't call withdrawal fatal

uberwolf

Marc Dazzling Show wrote: »

Wow, I can't imagine that improving the situation here, however I don't think it's something that would ever be introduced in Irealnd.

A book I read - Devils Picnic I think it was - ran through a number of substances that were illegal or hugely inhibited in various countries - starts tamely by eating M&S poppy seed bagels in Malaysia I think.
Alcohol in one of the Scandinavian countries (where all off licences are state owned, and hugely expensive booze has lead to moonshine equivalent and ahuge alcohol problem)

through the jigs and the reels he goes, up for his marching powder in Bogota, or more precisely coco leaves, which the indigenous population imbibe without resorting to the much more damaging cocaine

and so the author leads to Heroin. I believe it was in Switerland, but it has been some years since I read the book.

Heroin is decriminalised, and provided free of charge to addicts as long as they use it in the clinic that it is provided to them. Needles available there and everything.

It has a few effects.
Steady, reliable and quality access to the drug means addicts are not dominated by their relationship to the substance. This allows them lead more productive lives, and makes them more likely to wean themselves off, as opposed to Anto who cannot get beyond his next fix. Fewer health problems, as the drug is delivered in a clean format.
There are a significant number of middle class heroin addicts in Ireland, who are not dominated by the drug to the same extent, because they have the money to sustain access.

Deglamourises the drug. Its use is confined to a sterile gray building. Greatly reduces exposure to the drug amongst the impressionable youth team - fewer people start on the drug.

Removes the market, drug gangs have far fewer people to sell to, as any converts are taken from them immediately. There is greatly reduced financial incentive to engage in drug import and sale.

book here - a good read

Amalgam

Odysseus wrote: »

Withdrawal from heroin will not kill anybody, its uncomfortable yes, but the reality is in most cases it can be compared to a really bad case of the flu.

I would class withdrawal from certain benzodiazepines as being worse, a much more aggressive experience, both mentally and physically.

(sorry, I replied before scrolling down to the end of your post)

Odysseus

Amalgam wrote: »

(sorry, I replied before scrolling down to the end of your post)

No probs, I hate when I do that myself.

Pace2008

board om wrote: »

Interesting and informed stuff.

Wow, that was great. Someone on AH who seems to know something about this type of thing, who'd have thought?

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if Suboxone ( Buprenorphine) is used in Ireland for the management of opioid dependence? I've heard that it's more effective than methadone, but is a lot more expensive.

Odysseus wrote: »

However, in Dublin a large % are also using benzos, i.e. valium withdrawal here can be more problematic people can experience fits during withdrawal. However, you still won't call withdrawal fatal

I'm pretty sure that you can die from withdrawal from some of the stronger benzos, though you're probably right about valium.

Odysseus

Pace2008 wrote: »

Wow, that was great. Someone on AH who seems to know something about this type of thing, who'd have thought?

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if Suboxone ( Buprenorphine) is used in Ireland for the management of opioid dependence? I've heard that it's more effective than methadone, but is a lot more expensive.

Its used in a few cases only, most of the cases I hear of it being used is with clients on young person's programmes. However, methadone of Buprenorphine is a last restort with under 18s.

I honsetly don't think its more effective, just my opinion, but if a person is motivated to change their lifestyle they will regardsless of what substitute is used.

Odysseus

Pace2008 wrote: »

Wow, that was great. Someone on AH who seems to know something about this type of thing, who'd have thought?

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if Suboxone ( Buprenorphine) is used in Ireland for the management of opioid dependence? I've heard that it's more effective than methadone, but is a lot more expensive.

I'm pretty sure that you can die from withdrawal from some of the stronger benzos, though you're probably right about valium.

When you say stronger benzos are you thinking of Bards, a different class of drug all together.

Pace2008

Odysseus wrote: »

When you say stronger benzos are you thinking of Bards, a different class of drug all together.

Not Barbiturates, if that's what you mean. According to the Wikipedia page - which is quite comprehensive - death can occur occur from convulsions or catatonia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine_withdrawal_syndrome

Odysseus

Pace2008 wrote: »

Not Barbiturates, if that's what you mean. According to the Wikipedia page - which is quite comprehensive - death can occur occur from convulsions or catatonia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine_withdrawal_syndrome

I have never heard of death due to benzo withdrawal, I must check that out in work tomorrow. However, they are a terrible drug to come off. A lot of "so called treatment centres" in for example some of the ones run by various Christian groups just offer cold turkey detoxes. Because of this, and no medical supervision within the HSE we can refer people to them, because of the dangers.

board om

Acacia wrote: »

Sorry, just saw your reply now. I didn't mean actually moving them to live out in the middle of nowhere, I just meant to move the actual treatment centres out of the city to reduce drug-related crime.

I don't see drug users as 'undesirables' (I'm not that snobby, LOL) I'm just trying to think of a way that would lessen the damage potentially caused to innocent people as a result of a their drug abuse (muggings, etc.) and also provide help for addicts.

if they moved all the treatment centres to the suburbs then you would have a few problems. firstly addicts would be less likely to get help if they had to travel an hour or two on a bus on a daily basis to attend a clinic. one of the reason they have clinics in eash locality is to encourage addicts to attend them so that they get the help they need. addicts would eventually have to start moving closer to the clinics and then you would end up with areas that were drugged up 'no go' areas. secondly, who would decide what areas get stuck with these clinics? because when a clinic opens it is going to attract all sorts, and nobody wants that on their doorstep. so if you decided that tallaght was to get a few clinics, but ballsbridge was to be clinic free, then that would be a bit unfair to expect tallaght to deal with all the addicts. there are always going to be arguments for and against clinics being opened in every area. in the likes of ballyfermot they actually want more clinics to help deal with the large amount of addicts. but in the likes of D4 they dont want a clinic anywhere near them.

lets face it, snobbery or not, addicts are undesirables. and not because they might wear tracksuits and baseball caps etc. but because there is the fear you will be mugged by them, or that they might attack you in a drugged up state. it doesnt matter if they wore 3 piece suit or tracksuits, the fear of muggings and robbery are there regardless. its there state of mind and prediciment that scare people, not their dress code.

studiorat wrote: »

Some good posts there. Was just wondering how much a habit costs these days? Anyone have any idea?

Regarding living with a habit, I suppose if you could get a regular supply of pharmacutical grade Heroin you could go on for years. But you will get problems with collapsed veins etc as you progress. Problem is that the street stuff is usually cut with other chemicals that don't dissolve in the blood.

Of course living with a gear habit is all well and fine until you loose your job or something else goes wrong. Then it all begins to go pear shaped very quickly...

it is very dificult to say how much a habit would cost an addict because you have street deals and bulk. for instance you see in the papers about anto the addict having a €500 a day habit. but the chances of anto actually spending €500 a day is ridiculous. at this stage he would be buying bulk and selling smaller deals on, so most likely his habit is costing him very little. but saying that, your tolerance to heroin grows very quickly, so you can go from spending €20 a day to €100 a day very quickly. smoking it would cost more as you need more, but then once you start injecting you depend more on it and your tolerance builds up very quickly when injecting so your habit will grow very fast.

if its any help then for someone who uses daily and would have a full time habit of smoking during the day and injecting at night, you would be looking at about €80 a day if you bought in bulk, or €160 if you bought street deals. now that is not to say you would not want more, but to keep it managable and affordable you have to have to limit yourself.

the daily price for a crack addict is unlimited. you could not put a cap on the amount these guys will spend. you will never have enough crack.

you could quite happily live a productive life using heroin. aside from the problems with veins it would not cause massive health risks. you could hold down a normal job and live a normal life. but once you lose control of the addiction you start missing work, and then you lose your job, and then you lose your home, and so on and so on down the spiral until your life is completley out of control. but if you were in a position where funds were unlimited, and you had some self control, you could get away with it for as long as you wanted. its all about self control, which unfortunatly addicts dont have much of.

i know a lot of people who worked and used heroin for years. it was only when they lost their jobs (not only by their own doing) that their habits got out of control. becuase where they were keeping busy during the day working, when they lost their jobs they had nothing to do so they started using more.

Marc Dazzling Show wrote: »

Very informative post board om. Any idea what can be done for the children of these addicts? For example if I see a child with a parent or parents who are obviously addicts and reported this to a Garda or Health Board, can they/will they do anything?

i dont think anything be done can as it is nearly impossible for the state to take custody of a child. and also the state doesnt have the money to keep all these children. they would have to prove that the child is being abused. now you and i would consider that this treatment is abuse, but it doesnt constitute the child being taken away.

i have heard quite a few times of situations where the parents of children were completley strung out and the children were being dragged around town, and being left on there own in the house, so the parents or family of the addicts have stepped in and taken the children away and they are brought up by the family member.

all i can say is there is nothing worse than sitting in somones house and they are amoking heroin and joints around the kids. i have seen it enough times but i still never get used to it. it really disturbs me. the amount of times i have been told "its grand, have a smoke there if you want" while there are kids in the room is just crazy. and worse is when there are infants running around and they pick up a bit of tinfoil and run off with it because its shiny and attractive, and the parents just take it off the child and curse it saying "god, he/she is always grabbing at stuff", as if its the childs fault for being in the situation isntead of theirs.

Odysseus wrote: »

Out of intererst why would you say that, whilst sharing it not a thing of the past and of course Hep C rates at about 75% for IV users. Most I know are quite good around that now. The falling down part is around spoons and filters, people forget about that.

i dont think the figure for Hep C is that high, but you are correct that it is the sharing spoons and other untensils that is the problem. its like they all know not to share needles because "that is just stupid", but then they go and share a spoon or use each others syringes to put out their water. its crazy. and Hep C is very contageous. it can be picked up from sharing pipes and tooters (used for smoking gear).

Odysseus wrote: »

Withdrawal from heroin will not kill anybody, its uncomfortable yes, but the reality is in most cases it can be compared to a really bad case of the flu. You know the type that will put you in bad for about a week. The rest is more of a withdrawal phobia.

However, in Dublin a large % are also using benzos, i.e. valium withdrawal here can be more problematic people can experience fits during withdrawal. However, you still won't call withdrawal fatal

withdrawal from smoking heroin can be like a really bad flu, but from injecting is a lot worse. we arent talking as bad as trainspotting, but its not far off it either. and the longer you use then the worse the withdrawals. then add in the mental cravings and you have a horrible situation. crippling pains, cramps, sweating crazy sweat, diahorrea, etc. and you cant sleep at all. i mean you are as wide awake as if you drank a tray of redbull, and this goes on for days. you will hallucinate crazy stuff. its like you are dreaming while you are awake. your think absolutley insane things and it feels like your head is never going to be sane again. the worst thing is that it doesnt come on slowly, you can feel it creeping in over a few hours, and the next thing you know it hits you like a train and there is no turning back. you either have to ride it through, or go and score. and most in this situation will go and score.

Amalgam wrote: »

I would class withdrawal from certain benzodiazepines as being worse, a much more aggressive experience, both mentally and physically.

benzos are the worst because there is nothing you can take to come off them. they effect your head very badly, your memory in particular. you will forget words and simple names of things, and this will go on for a very long time afterwards. you actually feel like part of your brain is missing. alongside methadone it is one of the worst things to withdraw from. and it is a very long withdrawal.

although i dont know of anybody who has died from withdrawals from benzos, that is not to say it cant happen. it is very serious.

Pace2008 wrote: »

Wow, that was great. Someone on AH who seems to know something about this type of thing, who'd have thought?

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if Suboxone ( Buprenorphine) is used in Ireland for the management of opioid dependence? I've heard that it's more effective than methadone, but is a lot more expensive.

Suboxone and Subutex are available in limited supply in some of the clinics. they say they are still trialling it and therefore wont give it out to everyone, but that is BS as i know they have been dispensing it for a couple of years from at least 2 clinics in the city centre.

it is far superior to methadone, especially the newer Suboxone as this can not be misused like Subutex was. it is actually used nearly everywhere else in the world except ireland. it is suppsoedly a cost thing. but also the crossover from methadone to suboxone is quite difficult. you see one of the benefits of suboxone is that you dont have to take it every day like with methaodne. you can take it every 2-3 days, and while you are on it other opiates will not work. so even if you did get the cravings to take heroin it would have no effect on you, so it is pointless taking it. with methadone you can still use heroin, so you get a craving and you go and use it. although opiates not working while you are on suboxone is a good thing, it makes it very difficult to crossover from methaodne becuase methaodne is an opiate.

its like this, suboxone takes a few days to start working, and while you are waiting for it to start woking you will start going through withdrawals, but you cant take methadone for the withdrawals as it wont work. so there would be that 2-3 day period where you would be very sick. and becuase of this the clinics are very reluctant to transfer patients from methaodne to suboxone. now if you are coming off just heroin then it is much easier as you are already using, so you can just have your last hit and ease into the suboxone.

now if you are on methadone and you approach the clinics to ask about taking suboxone, be prepared for a very strange conversation. they will basically 'off the record' tell you that you would be better off going back using heroin for a bit and come back to them when the methaodne is out of your system, then they will start you on suboxone. they will not tell you to go out and start using heroin again, they will just 'suggest' that this is an easier route to go down.


And this concludes todays lesson on 'How to be a junkie and survive in todays climate'.

AdamusAdonis

yeah, Dublin is full of junkies, such a shame... never really see any on the streets back home, though I don't deny they're around somewhere... :P

Amalgam

Just out of interest, I read somewhere that 'Rathdown' (Dun Laoghaire etc), not Dublin City had the highest number of registered addicts, per head of population.

Odysseus

[QUOTE=board om;611




i dont think the figure for Hep C is that high, but you are correct that it is the sharing spoons and other untensils that is the problem. its like they all know not to share needles because "that is just stupid", but then they go and share a spoon or use each others syringes to put out their water. its crazy. and Hep C is very contageous. it can be picked up from sharing pipes and tooters (used for smoking gear).




withdrawal from smoking heroin can be like a really bad flu, but from injecting is a lot worse. we arent talking as bad as trainspotting, but its not far off it either. and the longer you use then the worse the withdrawals. then add in the mental cravings and you have a horrible situation. crippling pains, cramps, sweating crazy sweat, diahorrea, etc. and you cant sleep at all. i mean you are as wide awake as if you drank a tray of redbull, and this goes on for days. you will hallucinate crazy stuff. its like you are dreaming while you are awake. your think absolutley insane things and it feels like your head is never going to be sane again. the worst thing is that it doesnt come on slowly, you can feel it creeping in over a few hours, and the next thing you know it hits you like a train and there is no turning back. you either have to ride it through, or go and score. and most in this situation will go and score.

[/QUOTE]

The figures for Hep C are old I grant you, a few years. I would like to think that the % has reduced. I don't think there are any current figures, I could be wrong though. But this was the figures being quoted for a good few years.

You clearly know your stuff around opiate use,/abuse/addiction, but hallunicating whilst withdraw from heroin, nah. I don't believe its possible and of the 1000s of drug users I have worked with over the years, never had one case of this. If someone reported this to me I would be thinking of a psych symptom.

Amalgam

You can have fairly 'delirious' sensations on withdrawal from benzodiazepines. Sadly, I have experience of this.

loveissucide

Letterkenny's swarming with bloody junkies.There really has to be a better way of sorting out idiots.

Pal

Any way we can have Custom House Quay returned to the people please ?

board om

Odysseus wrote: »

The figures for Hep C are old I grant you, a few years. I would like to think that the % has reduced. I don't think there are any current figures, I could be wrong though. But this was the figures being quoted for a good few years.

You clearly know your stuff around opiate use,/abuse/addiction, but hallunicating whilst withdraw from heroin, nah. I don't believe its possible and of the 1000s of drug users I have worked with over the years, never had one case of this. If someone reported this to me I would be thinking of a psych symptom.

i would believe the Hep C figure is high, i just didnt think it was anything as serious as that figure. i know a lot of the old school users from the eighties would most likely have Hep C through the lack of awareness of it and from not having the acces to clean tools like they do now. the number might have come down with newer users being educated better, but really i dont know. i actually hope it isnt that high because that is just scary.

im not talking hallucinations as in big pinks elephants tap dancing on tables, im talking more like very active day dreams that are hard to distingush between them and reality. when you are sick it is very traumatic, as in you are completely all over the place and you mind is a mess. you are completely unsure of anything really. its hard to describe but its like sobriety is slowly coming back, and you have been used to living in this cloudy bubble that you have created for yourslef, like your own little world. and when sobriety starts to kick in you start to remember feelings and things you havent experienced for a long time, so you are trying to distingush between what is normal and what is from your own cloudy little world. you are overly alert to every little thing because you have been so used to having most of your senses switched off, but now that everything is starting to work again you are alert to every noise and smell. things like cigarette smoke that you wouldnt normally notice is really strong and chemically smelling.

you see when you are a full time user you usually know when sickness is coming. because being a full time user you will always have some gear stashed away, and when that runs out you will have a few contacts to get it off. so you would rarely just run out. you will usually only end up going through sickness because you have decided to get clean, or there is a drought on, or for some other reason like that. it is rarely ever just sprung on you. so because of this you know its coming in advance and you are aware of everything. usually what ever the last thing you were doing before sickness kicks in will stick in your head, and you cant get it out or stop thinking about it. like say you were watching a film, then that will be stuck in your head and its all you can think about. then because you cant sleep you lay there wide awake with your head going around in circles thinking about complete nonesense. even though you dont sleep, every now and then your mind will drift off as if you are dreaming, but you are still awake, so it is very vivd. and when you snap out of it you arent sure if you were asleep for a few minutes, or if you were awake, or if anything happened at all. like i have had situations where i have thought about conversations ive had with people, and afterwards im not completely sure whether i have had that conversation or not. as i said, it is like dreaming while you are awake, and you can remember the dreams very clearly, to the point where you could write them down afterwards. and all the time this is happening your body is going through pains and feelings of sickness. and this goes on for days.

so as i said, it isnt extreme 'trainspotting' type hallucinations, it is more like the kind of hallucinations you get from sleep depravation, more confused and delirious.

Crackerspray

I was in Dublin centre the other day, just at the end of North Earl Street where the little corner shop is.... the one thats usually surrounded by junkies. I noticed as I was passing that there was a severe lack of junkies for the first time in years when out of the corner of my eye I saw two Gardi in the junkies 'spot' I was looking in amazement at them as I was delighted they finally got off their arses to tackle the problem!

My elation was short lived when one of the Gadi shouted "ah now GIRLS" I looked over in the direction of his voice only to see a deal between two women, about 20 feet away from the Gardi, which they continued to carry out after the warning. At this stage I was waiting around to see what would happen.... good job I didnt hold my breath, cause the two lazy pricks did nothing to stop them or even take a name.... thats mainly the reason theres drunks and junkies littered around our streets and out of their minds laying at the bases of monuments around our cities... the Gardi are doing NOTHING!! And they're excuses usually range from the amount of paper-work thats involved to "theres no-where to put them"

Im sick of not being able to walk the streets without being afraid of those cnuts hanging around, its very frustrating for the decent citizens of our cities that we are not protected, but the scum are minded like babies!

Sorry for the angry rant, but it really gets to me that the goverment are doing nothing, but why would they? They never have to come into contact with these people!!

Odysseus

board om wrote: »

i would believe the Hep C figure is high, i just didnt think it was anything as serious as that figure. i know a lot of the old school users from the eighties would most likely have Hep C through the lack of awareness of it and from not having the acces to clean tools like they do now. the number might have come down with newer users being educated better, but really i dont know. i actually hope it isnt that high because that is just scary.

im not talking hallucinations as in big pinks elephants tap dancing on tables, im talking more like very active day dreams that are hard to distingush between them and reality. when you are sick it is very traumatic, as in you are completely all over the place and you mind is a mess. you are completely unsure of anything really. its hard to describe but its like sobriety is slowly coming back, and you have been used to living in this cloudy bubble that you have created for yourslef, like your own little world. and when sobriety starts to kick in you start to remember feelings and things you havent experienced for a long time, so you are trying to distingush between what is normal and what is from your own cloudy little world. you are overly alert to every little thing because you have been so used to having most of your senses switched off, but now that everything is starting to work again you are alert to every noise and smell. things like cigarette smoke that you wouldnt normally notice is really strong and chemically smelling.

you see when you are a full time user you usually know when sickness is coming. because being a full time user you will always have some gear stashed away, and when that runs out you will have a few contacts to get it off. so you would rarely just run out. you will usually only end up going through sickness because you have decided to get clean, or there is a drought on, or for some other reason like that. it is rarely ever just sprung on you. so because of this you know its coming in advance and you are aware of everything. usually what ever the last thing you were doing before sickness kicks in will stick in your head, and you cant get it out or stop thinking about it. like say you were watching a film, then that will be stuck in your head and its all you can think about. then because you cant sleep you lay there wide awake with your head going around in circles thinking about complete nonesense. even though you dont sleep, every now and then your mind will drift off as if you are dreaming, but you are still awake, so it is very vivd. and when you snap out of it you arent sure if you were asleep for a few minutes, or if you were awake, or if anything happened at all. like i have had situations where i have thought about conversations ive had with people, and afterwards im not completely sure whether i have had that conversation or not. as i said, it is like dreaming while you are awake, and you can remember the dreams very clearly, to the point where you could write them down afterwards. and all the time this is happening your body is going through pains and feelings of sickness. and this goes on for days.

so as i said, it isnt extreme 'trainspotting' type hallucinations, it is more like the kind of hallucinations you get from sleep depravation, more confused and delirious.

Yeah I know you not talking Lucy In the Sky with Diamonds;) BTH I still dont get, I have never come across hallunication with opiate withdrawal in real life or with the literature.

I know you trying to describe something which is diffiuclt to describe, when you say like the ones associated with sleep depravation I know what you mean, which leads me to question are you talking about the lack of sleep associated with withdrawal caising this? As I don't believe opiates can cause it. However, people still manage to get a few mins of sleep here and there so I don't think that can be the cause either. After all in most cases people with be getting a few hours of sleep within a week of stopping.

The subjective experience of increased awareness isn't a hallunication either, same with the racing thoughts your describing when a person is lying awake. Could you expand on the sleep depravation in relation to the "more confused and delirious" part of you post?

I'm not trying to be smart or catch you out, its an area of interest of mine which is why I'm posting. Also I forgot to metion it in my last post your comment of IV "causing" [if that the correct word you used] more severe withdrawal. As I would view psychical withdrawal to be related to the quanity rather than route of adminstration.

Cheers.

board om

Odysseus wrote: »

Yeah I know you not talking Lucy In the Sky with Diamonds;) BTH I still dont get, I have never come across hallunication with opiate withdrawal in real life or with the literature.

I know you trying to describe something which is diffiuclt to describe, when you say like the ones associated with sleep depravation I know what you mean, which leads me to question are you talking about the lack of sleep associated with withdrawal caising this? As I don't believe opiates can cause it. However, people still manage to get a few mins of sleep here and there so I don't think that can be the cause either. After all in most cases people with be getting a few hours of sleep within a week of stopping.

The subjective experience of increased awareness isn't a hallunication either, same with the racing thoughts your describing when a person is lying awake. Could you expand on the sleep depravation in relation to the "more confused and delirious" part of you post?

I'm not trying to be smart or catch you out, its an area of interest of mine which is why I'm posting. Also I forgot to metion it in my last post your comment of IV "causing" [if that the correct word you used] more severe withdrawal. As I would view psychical withdrawal to be related to the quanity rather than route of adminstration.

Cheers.

It is very hard to describe any more than I already have. I have been wrecking my head trying to think of a better way of explaining it but its just one of those things that you have to go through to fully comprehend. it could very well be the sleep depravation. you see, even though there are certain feelings everyone experiences while going through heroin withdrawals, there are also certain things that effect some worse than others. for instance when i go through withdrawals i will not sleep at all for at least the first 48-72 hours. i would be absolutely wired and i wont get a wink of sleep. this would be most likely what causes me to be confused and delerious. most of what i have described above happens within the first 48-72 hours so the lack of sleep could attribute to most of it. i dont believe that somehow the lack of opiates is causing me to halucinate and be confused and delerious, i think it is more the state of mind i would be in at the time. the combination of withdrawal of opiates, no sleep, constant sickness, etc. that is another problem that i have going through withdrawals. i am constantly vomiting. i cant stop myself. if im not vomiting then i am retching. this is actually one of the things that stops me getting clean. i cant face that fear of uncontrollable vomiting. i hate it. its like my throat is numb so i cant swallow without retching, let alone drink something. it is a horrible experience. now i know that not everyone experiences this but it is something that really effects me.

regarding IV use causing more severe withdrawals, this would definitly be the case. no matter how much heroin you smoke, you will always get worse withdrawals from injecting. its like the higher you go, the harder you fall, and you will always get higher from injecting. no matter how much you smoke, you could never smoke enough to get the same feeling as you would from injecting. its a completley different hit altogether.

years ago when i first started injecting, i was only doing it occasionally and smoking the rest of the time. i was used to going through withdrawals every now and then, but the first time i went through withdrawls after i started injecting it was 1000 times worse. i didnt know what hit me. sure you can even feel the difference the next day after injecting. lets say you smoke heroin, then the following day you havent smoked, you will be fine for most of the day. the sickness wont hit you straight away and you can function well enough. and when sickness does start, it will come on slowly and gradually. but when you inject, if you dont use the next day the sickness just hits you. one minute you will be fine and the next minute you will be breaking out in sweats and your stomach will be churning. there is a huge difference in the sickness. the symptoms are the same but on two very different levels, the symptoms from injecting being the more severe.

the route of administration plays a bit part. smoking it will never get you in the same league of sickness as injecting it. but also i used to find i got very little sickness from snorting it. i used to snort it quite a bit, and even though it really hit you hard, it never had that bad a sickness off it. and i actually know a few people who will snort it for that very reason. now that is not to say there is no sickness from snorting it, there is of course, just not as severe. and if you smoke it, no matter how bad your habit is, you will never have as severe withdrawls as when you inject.

Pal wrote: »

Any way we can have Custom House Quay returned to the people please ?

no worries, ill bring it up at the next general meeting.