Irish players are just not cutting it.

rag2gar

Follow on from this


So we're into the last 250 players in the WSOP and not one Irish player left. This on the back of a 2009 Irish Open final table which didnt have a single Irish player. I think there's something amiss. Hense why I started this thread. Are Irish poker players way below average at the upper levels of poker? Are there players out there who can genuinely win WSOP's EPT's and heck even Irish Opens? If you subtract Marty Smyth from the last few year's you are left with an abysmal showing in all the bigger tournaments. I know we are a small nation compared to the U.S. but the likes of Finland Denmark and Sweden are really outperforming us year in year out. There must be reasons for this.

What are these countries' players doing which Irish players don't? I was one of a lot of lads that went to the WSOP this year and didn't challange. I'm not sure about others but on reflection I believe this is simply cause I am not good enough to expect to challanage for the World Champs.

Will we ever have an Irish World Champion again? And what about EPT's are we going to win any of those? Are we gonna see a non-Irish winner of the Irish Open for years to come as well?

Where have we gone wrong?

ditpoker

we have it too good here. US players and european plays in alot of countries play fast structure tournaments in casino's and 50bb cash tables. our best players are multi-tabling 100+ cash nits who are overly dependent on poker tracker, hem, etc. our best players, marty smyth, john o'shea, rory reese-brennan dont use pokertracker or HEM (as far as i know) to beat their opponents, they learnt how to beat the game, not how to grind the stats, so they can play against the best and hold their own, our 'pros' can grind a living beatings stats, but put him up against a $25/$50 omaha player and he'll be outplayed left right and centre because the 25/50 player can adjust to beat the stat grinder.

step 1: irish card clubs STOP listening to punter and bring in more short stacked 20min clcok structures so players are forced to learn how to play a short stack better.
step 2: introduce $1/$2 NLHE cash games capped at $100 buy-ins like Vegas and a large number of gaming cities. This is also recession busting poker, and new clubs like voodoo card club would do well to be the first to try this.
step 3: anyone who wants to go beyond 1/2 or 2/4 should delete pokertracker and holdem'manager today. if you can beat 1/2 with PT, but cant beat it without PT, guess what, its PT that beats 1/2, not you, so when you play live, a break even 1/2 player wll do very well against you...

but i'm a losing fish... so what do i know!

eagle eye

I swear if the username was not shown I'd be certain this was Stavros.

Anyways apart from Marty Smyth we have Jude Ainsworth with huge online winnings. Fintan Gavin winning over 1mill euro in Barcelona. Rory Rees Brennan winning the IPT to succeed Jude who won it the year before, Martin Silke winning a GUKPT main event.

phantom_lord

i have to say i found that article a bit strange, the wsop isn't a sporting event; it's a high variance poker tournament, the fact there's no one left in the last 250 doesn't really mean anything. and while it would be nice to see someone irish win (particularly if i have a piece!) it doesn't really mean much to me and i'd imagine it's the same for most people.

also it's not like there's academies of poker and grass roots organisations out there training young players and we need a genesis report into while we're not getting results. anyway, all that aside, i don't think attendance levels at final tables is a good way to measures a country's success at poker.

mdwexford

Most people in Ireland dont put enough effort into improving their game, the few that do reap the rewards, its that simple.

HIVeindhoven

rag2gar wrote: »

Follow on from this


Where have we gone wrong?

Failing to win enough flips, imo.

What an absolutely retarded article. Seriously. If it wasnt posted under your username i'd have dismissed it as a mildly amusing troll. Ireland not having any players one year at the FT of a high variance Flip-Fest this year (Irish open) proves nothing.

aya14

OP any stats to back this up?
By this I mean player ratio in each country in terms of Scandies versus Irish.
With all due respect, unless you provide stats. Your post is circumstancial bollox.

phantom_lord

ditpoker wrote: »

if you can beat 1/2 with PT, but cant beat it without PT, guess what, its PT that beats 1/2, not you, so when you play live, a break even 1/2 player wll do very well against you...

c'mon jeff. pt is just something that allows you to play more tables, it's not some super magical piece of software that tells you what to do. when u play live u play one table full of people, and you see everything that happens, pt is just a way of giving you the same info as a multi-tablier. there's no such thing as a "stats grinder"

and a 25/50 reg will beat a 2/4 reg just because he has a better understanding of the game, nothing to do w/ software.

Grafter

I'm open to correction, but of the Irish who entered the main event, I think more than 10% cashed, so that's an outperformance?

5starpool

What a silly article Gary. How many Iirsh were in the Main Event this year? 50? Why should several of them be expected to be in the last 250? As for the Irish Open, much as any one of us would love to win it, when it gets towards the money it is only a push/fold fest, no real skill invloved in a lot of the spots you would find yourself in. At that point it is the luckiest players win more often than not. I'm sure some of the people that final tabled it were good players, but to say that because they final tabled they are better than those that did not is a laughable statement.

sickpuppy

We have some great omaha players as its really the only cash game played here for high stakes.

Im sure theres some good nl cash games but not in dublin.

Most of the guys who are successfull like any business or venture work really hard on there games.

I know its a crap shoot but last years poekr million had 5 irish players in final 6
some of these fish ive played with lots years ago O dea Marty and Liam flood
was a lot of good players knocked out.

Im not sure all ireland best players played the main event met Liam flood few weeks ago in my local and he says he never plays vegas did O dea play?
compared to years gone bye a poor show but defo not the end of the road.

ocallagh

Irish and GB players at WSOP http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/ranking/171

Ireland have 19 of the top 100. With a population 1/10th the size I think 20% is quite good

ditpoker

phantom_lord wrote: »

c'mon jeff. pt is just something that allows you to play more tables, it's not some super magical piece of software that tells you what to do. when u play live u play one table full of people, and you see everything that happens, pt is just a way of giving you the same info as a multi-tablier. there's no such thing as a "stats grinder"

and a 25/50 reg will beat a 2/4 reg just because he has a better understanding of the game, nothing to do w/ software.

i'm tired and need sleep. i blame oxegen! :pac:

5starpool

Where in Vegas do they cap the 1/2 NL game at 100? In the capped games I have seen for 1/2 it is min 100 max 300 for 1/2 games, or higher cap for 1/3. Capped games won't attract many punters for a start, no chance.

Wolves

ocallagh wrote: »

Irish and GB players at WSOP http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/ranking/171

Ireland have 19 of the top 100. With a population 1/10th the size I think 20% is quite good

21 if you count the 2 lads from the north

Grafter

ocallagh wrote: »

Irish and GB players at WSOP http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/ranking/171

Ireland have 19 of the top 100. With a population 1/10th the size I think 20% is quite good

Really interesting table.

A surprising amount of the "English" are immigrants or children of.

Almost no (careful with money?) Scots (although Andy Black counted as Irish).

Jesus Wept

Sweden have done sh1t over the the last few years (I don't know about prior to that) at the WSOP (Main Event and otherwise), I know because I have paid attention to their results & finishes in order to take the p1ss out of my Swedish friend, and point out how much better Ireland have done.

Slash/ED

phantom_lord wrote: »

i have to say i found that article a bit strange, the wsop isn't a sporting event; it's a high variance poker tournament, the fact there's no one left in the last 250 doesn't really mean anything. and while it would be nice to see someone irish win (particularly if i have a piece!) it doesn't really mean much to me and i'd imagine it's the same for most people.

also it's not like there's academies of poker and grass roots organisations out there training young players and we need a genesis report into while we're not getting results. anyway, all that aside, i don't think attendance levels at final tables is a good way to measures a country's success at poker.

Agree on all points; not getting results in high variance flipfests proves nothing and even if it did, there's no overall organization here trying to better players. If you can't get results in poker it's your fault and your fault alone, nobody owes you a living, this isn't some sport where we can say we need better facilities to compete or whatever and talking about it in the same terms as something like that is foolish. One Irishman's success means nothing for any other Irish players abilities or successes. Especially considering most 'train' and learn online, your country of origin really has no bearing on your ability as a player, unlike in athletic sports. I think saying Irish players aren't cutting it is the equivalent of seeing that nobody called John cashed in this years ME and writing an article wondering what's gone wrong with people called John.

we have it too good here. US players and european plays in alot of countries play fast structure tournaments in casino's and 50bb cash tables. our best players are multi-tabling 100+ cash nits who are overly dependent on poker tracker, hem, etc. our best players, marty smyth, john o'shea, rory reese-brennan dont use pokertracker or HEM (as far as i know) to beat their opponents, they learnt how to beat the game, not how to grind the stats, so they can play against the best and hold their own, our 'pros' can grind a living beatings stats, but put him up against a $25/$50 omaha player and he'll be outplayed left right and centre because the 25/50 player can adjust to beat the stat grinder.

step 1: irish card clubs STOP listening to punter and bring in more short stacked 20min clcok structures so players are forced to learn how to play a short stack better.
step 2: introduce $1/$2 NLHE cash games capped at $100 buy-ins like Vegas and a large number of gaming cities. This is also recession busting poker, and new clubs like voodoo card club would do well to be the first to try this.
step 3: anyone who wants to go beyond 1/2 or 2/4 should delete pokertracker and holdem'manager today. if you can beat 1/2 with PT, but cant beat it without PT, guess what, its PT that beats 1/2, not you, so when you play live, a break even 1/2 player wll do very well against you...

but i'm a losing fish... so what do i know!

I really have to disagree with all of this from start to finish tbh. I don't see how making structures worse would make players better - Tournaments still end up short stacked so the good players still get the required experience, they also get more experience with a deeper stack making more complicated decisions. I really can't see how a 20 minute short stack structure is considered good preparation for a 2 hour long, all and more levels included, 300bb deep tournament, or at least better preparation than a longer clock and deeper stacks would provide. That's assuming they're meant to be any kind of preparation anyway which obviously they aren't, their job is to satisfy the customers who want better structures so there's more play for that particular tournament, that's pretty much it. Well that and generate reg fees and feed the cash tables obviously.

Capping cash games doesn't make much sense either, why stop people playing 100bb deep if they want to and feel that's the best way for them to make money and exploit their edge by causing more decisions to be made favoring the better players? I wouldn't sit at a 50bb capped cash table at any level.

And lastly, the idea that anyone using HEM is only beating stats and isn't a good player is frankly retarded. I'm sorry Jeff, but there's no other word for it. You think all it takes to beat 200nl is using some stats and people have no actual ability behind that? I'd wager quite considerably that anyone beating 200nl online comfortably over a considerable amount of hands would still be quite a good winner if they turned their HUD off. Their win-rate would suffer a bit, meaning they make less money, meaning it'd make no sense to do it, but they'd still be hugely +EV in the game if they were before, they'd still have a good winrate just slightly lessened. It's not like HEM tells them what to do or even make specific reads, it only gives very general information and I find note-taking to be far more reliable in the long term anyway. Any online player who is succeeding at 200nl/400nl "learnt how to beat the game, not how to grind the stats" and to say otherwise would be doing them a huge disservice. PT doesn't beat anyone, if it did, bots would be grinding the mid stakes cash games making a killing.

ditpoker

Slash/ED wrote: »

Capping cash games doesn't make much sense either, why stop people playing 100bb deep if they want to and feel that's the best way for them to make money and exploit their edge by causing more decisions to be made favoring the better players? I wouldn't sit at a 50bb capped cash table at any level.

tired of having this argument.

poker, like everything, in order to grow and sustain, needs to be marketed toward the masses. YES, we all know that it would be best to play 55555555bb deep, but that takes fish out of the game and keeps quality in the game. we want to flood the water with fish. we want to LIMIT the amount of gazzilion bb deep games there are. capping cash games to 50bb is average joe friendly.

I have asked this 3 times before on boards, and never got an answer, it is always avoided. this will be number 4.

Why do Dublin/irish cardrooms insist on offering 1/2 uncapped pot limit games when Las Vegas (and others such as sydney and london) who thrive on tourists, use the 1/2 capped at 50bb model? is it to get all the poker pro's in? or is it to attract gambly gambly fishy tourists to their games where the pro's dont have a huge edge over them? Do they realise that bad players = good games?

bohsman

Its uncapped POT limit versus capped NO limit and capped at 100bbs at that (I realise you managed to find one capped at 50 but its no the norm in vegas)

Mellor

ditpoker wrote: »

step 2: introduce $1/$2 NLHE cash games capped at $100 buy-ins like Vegas and a large number of gaming cities. This is also recession busting poker, and new clubs like voodoo card club would do well to be the first to try this.
know!

That is a terrible idea Jeff, from expierence. The 1/2 game is capped at $100 here and it is truly terrible. It has actually made me hate live NLHE

ditpoker

fine, cap it at 100bb... can everyone agree, 100bb capped nlhe is better/more fish friendly than pot limit uncapped?

who does pot limit uncapped benefit anyway? the rich minority??

bohsman

People that can play pot limit.

Beginners buying in for 20-50bbs are going to lose fast enough no matter what the cap is, the only people protected are the ones that manage to build their stacks up to 3-400+bbs

ditpoker

Mellor wrote: »

That is a terrible idea Jeff, from expierence. The 1/2 game is capped at $100 here and it is truly terrible. It has actually made me hate live NLHE

This is a good idea, from experience. The 1/2 game is capped at $100 and is truly terrible. It has actually made you, a competent winning player hate live NLHE. Competent winning players are the minority. It has actually made Joe Average, who doesnt read poker forums, who doesnt think about strategy, who doesnt work on his game, who plays recreationally, it has actually made him sit down cheaply, play cheaply, lose cheaply, and enjoy his $100, as opposed to being berated for his fishiness both directly in verbal abuse and/or indirectly by losing badly and quickly.

bohsman

ditpoker wrote: »

This is a good idea, from experience. The 1/2 game is capped at $100 and is truly terrible. It has actually made you, a competent winning player hate live NLHE. Competent winning players are the minority. It has actually made Joe Average, who doesnt read poker forums, who doesnt think about strategy, who doesnt work on his game, who plays recreationally, it has actually made him sit down cheaply, play cheaply, lose cheaply, and enjoy his $100, as opposed to being berated for his fishiness both directly in verbal abuse and/or indirectly by losing badly and quickly.

Perfect, lets get rid of the player that will play for 40 hours a week in your club so that Joe Average can stumble in drunk, see that theres no cash games going as the regs have left so he goes and plays blackjack. Now youre thinking like a casino owner.

ditpoker

bohsman wrote: »

People that can play pot limit.

Beginners buying in for 20-50bbs are going to lose fast enough no matter what the cap is,

this is such a throw away remark with no basis...

BUT, i agree, beginners will lose 20-50bb's fast, yes... but if a punter has 500 in his pocket, what will HE enjoy more, what is a better experience for him as someone seeking entertainment,

a) sitting down and losing 50bb's 5 times is $100 pots and he probably gets a few rounds of the table.
b) sitting down and losing 250bb's in one $1000 pot? getting potentially less than one round of the table?

which would be considered a better evening my joe public!? what would the best entertainment roi be?

bohsman

Id want a shot at that $1000 pot, its a far better bad beat story to be telling. I reloaded 5 times and didnt play a big pot just makes you sound like a bad player.

ditpoker

bohsman wrote: »

Perfect, lets get rid of the player that will play for 40 hours a week in your club so that Joe Average can stumble in drunk, see that theres no cash games going as the regs have left so he goes and plays blackjack. Now youre thinking like a casino owner.

YES!!! Lets get rid of the ONE player who plays 40hours a week, and lets replace him with 10 drunks who will pla 4hrs a week.

Ok, now lets suppose the ONE good player tell 1 friend not to play in club x. and now lets suppose the ten bad drunk players tell 1 friend they should play in club x. This way, we may have 2 tables going, as opposed to one game with the owner, the employees, and the one regular! Now I'm thinking like a succesful businessman.

ditpoker

bohsman wrote: »

Id want a shot at that $1000 pot, its a far better bad beat story to be telling. I reloaded 5 times and didnt play a big pot just makes you sound like a bad player.

(insert facepalm pic here)

bohsman

Good luck with that. You need 5-6 regular grinders to keep games going. Those 10 drunks are going to come in at various different times of the night. Im sure theres a job for you in the SE tho.

Also just because theres no cap on a 50min buyin game doesnt mean he has to buy in for 250bbs.

ditpoker

right, i give up. I'm off to bed. I'll continue to be wrong, and in doing so i will continue to offer some new/different ideas, some will be good, some will be bad. meanwhile, we can all watch as yet another poker room opens, we can all go and support the opening, say how great and wonderful it is, then never play there because their ideas are old and uninnovative, then we can all go along to the closing down tournament and chat mindlessly about how it makes no sense for such a sound business idea to fail.