Irish players are just not cutting it.

bohsman

Some of us will definitely not support that opening, crash and burn please. Absolutely, new ideas are great, but a high % of them are always going to be terrible. Think we've argued this whole thing before too.

Mellor

ditpoker wrote: »

This is a good idea, from experience. The 1/2 game is capped at $100 and is truly terrible. It has actually made you, a competent winning player hate live NLHE. Competent winning players are the minority. It has actually made Joe Average, who doesnt read poker forums, who doesnt think about strategy, who doesnt work on his game, who plays recreationally, it has actually made him sit down cheaply, play cheaply, lose cheaply, and enjoy his $100, as opposed to being berated for his fishiness both directly in verbal abuse and/or indirectly by losing badly and quickly.

I understand the point you are making, trying to get the average punter in. But 50BBs is not enough room. I wouldn't have as much a problem with 100bb cap.
In dublin, the guys that buy in for $50 at a time are the ones who keep the game going, they are the ones who make it profitable (mostly due to the fact that there are 5 or 6 of them at a table early in the night) and should be encouraged. Having a pot capped allows them a form of protection, instead of dropping $200 straight up, they bleed it out over the night in 4 $50 enstallments, I would even go as far to say that they would lose more this way in the long term. And I belive that any games that are 100BB MIN are a bad idea, for the same reasons you list above. Too too often at 50bb stacks, we are forced into sub-optimal lines, which is obviously a bad thing. I think that having 50bb tables as an option is a good idea. It will increase the fishy tourist types. But, imo, dublin card rooms aren't big enough, nor have the numbers passing through, to afford any options beyond PLO/HLEM to the palyer (including the choice between 1/2 and 2/5, or pot limit verses no limit)

ianmc38

ditpoker wrote: »

we have it too good here. US players and european plays in alot of countries play fast structure tournaments in casino's and 50bb cash tables. our best players are multi-tabling 100+ cash nits who are overly dependent on poker tracker, hem, etc. our best players, marty smyth, john o'shea, rory reese-brennan dont use pokertracker or HEM (as far as i know) to beat their opponents, they learnt how to beat the game, not how to grind the stats, so they can play against the best and hold their own, our 'pros' can grind a living beatings stats, but put him up against a $25/$50 omaha player and he'll be outplayed left right and centre because the 25/50 player can adjust to beat the stat grinder.

Ridiculously tilting reply. Snipped my rant. Will replace with lol.

ditpoker

bohsman wrote: »

Think we've argued this whole thing before too.

LOL, we can agree on this!

sickpuppy

ianmc38 wrote: »

Ridiculously tilting reply. Snipped my rant. Will replace with lol.

IAN OBV upset cos he not named in top 3 players
all them guys are omaha specilaists so hold em manager not be worth a shyte to them
think tracking software more important in nl holdem i could be wrong as i dont play nl holdem

dagunman

I think Gary does have a valid point about the Irish performance in Vegas but not about the General state of Irish poker. Look at poker Million we had 4 of the last 4. The last year or so has seen nearly a dozen Irish people being recognised as one of the top players in their respective discipilnes.

Why do we do so bad in vegas? Walk pass the hooker and you will see a decent amount of Irish gatherd around drinking. They view vegas as a bit of an old piss up and sure if win we a few that'd be great.

I do agree with Jeff, can anyone point to anyone who has emerged from the live poker scence who could be rated as a top player in the last 20 yrs. We have a clutter of good online players but they have learned on line.
Compare this to some other countries where there are well organised casinos set up spreading proper games e.g some 1/2 2/5 5/10. I have never seen any other countries in the world that have 1/2 plh as standard and the biggest game. The reason we have this is because there are so many casinos, they dont want players going bust as there is a shortage of players for the 20 card clubs in Dublin.
The best thing that could happen to Iirsh poker is some casino regulation by the government that will leave us with 1 casino in our major cities.

nicnicnic

dagunman wrote: »

I think Gary does have a valid point about the Irish performance in Vegas but not about the General state of Irish poker. Look at poker Million we had 4 of the last 4. The last year or so has seen nearly a dozen Irish people being recognised as one of the top players in their respective discipilnes.

Why do we do so bad in vegas? Walk pass the hooker and you will see a decent amount of Irish gatherd around drinking. They view vegas as a bit of an old piss up and sure if win we a few that'd be great.

I do agree with Jeff, can anyone point to anyone who has emerged from the live poker scence who could be rated as a top player in the last 20 yrs. We have a clutter of good online players but they have learned on line.
Compare this to some other countries where there are well organised casinos set up spreading proper games e.g some 1/2 2/5 5/10. I have never seen any other countries in the world that have 1/2 plh as standard and the biggest game. The reason we have this is because there are so many casinos, they dont want players going bust as there is a shortage of players for the 20 card clubs in Dublin.
The best thing that could happen to Iirsh poker is some casino regulation by the government that will leave us with 1 casino in our major cities.

top four on this list fit I think

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/ranking/138

dannydiamond

I'll play the main event next year and right all the wrongs.

YULETIRED

rag2gar wrote: »

Follow on from this


So we're into the last 250 players in the WSOP and not one Irish player left. This on the back of a 2009 Irish Open final table which didnt have a single Irish player. I think there's something amiss. Hense why I started this thread. Are Irish poker players way below average at the upper levels of poker? Are there players out there who can genuinely win WSOP's EPT's and heck even Irish Opens? If you subtract Marty Smyth from the last few year's you are left with an abysmal showing in all the bigger tournaments. I know we are a small nation compared to the U.S. but the likes of Finland Denmark and Sweden are really outperforming us year in year out. There must be reasons for this.

What are these countries' players doing which Irish players don't? I was one of a lot of lads that went to the WSOP this year and didn't challange. I'm not sure about others but on reflection I believe this is simply cause I am not good enough to expect to challanage for the World Champs.

Will we ever have an Irish World Champion again? And what about EPT's are we going to win any of those? Are we gonna see a non-Irish winner of the Irish Open for years to come as well?

Where have we gone wrong?

We just simply can't match the luck of Jamie Gold, the luck of the Irish is the single most annoying saying in the world.

lol donkaments

TommyGunne

This is just ridiculous. Firstly, you shouldn't really care if Ireland does bad, its not a team sport. Its cool to see guys doing well from Ireland, but its not like they're even representing Ireland. Secondly, imo we have a disproportionate amount of good players in Ireland given our population. Thirdly, just because we have no players in the top 250 of the WSOP ME this year, so what? That means precisely nothing.

And ona seperate note, capping cash games is just silly for all the reasons mentioned above.

bohsman

YULETIRED wrote: »

We just simply can't match the luck of Jamie Gold, the luck of the Irish is the single most annoying saying in the world.

lol donkaments

Not "thats what Im talking about"?

5starpool

Jeff, low capped buy in games and shorter stack tournaments. You must really want to kill live poker in Ireland.

KevIRL

I'm sh*t anyway.

aodea

5starpool wrote: »

Jeff, low capped buy in games and shorter stack tournaments. You must really want to kill live poker in Ireland.

not much left to kill

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

a-k-47

id like to know how many boards players have played and cashed in the wsop me over the last 3/4 years. NFR, hawkeye, cardshack, nicnicnic, bigmick, who else?. dagunman, and marty with a ft and a bracelet winner. I presume the ratio to those who have not cashed would be pretty good? correct me if im wrong.

BuChan

who cares?!

BuChan

ditpoker wrote: »

we have it too good here. US players and european plays in alot of countries play fast structure tournaments in casino's and 50bb cash tables. our best players are multi-tabling 100+ cash nits who are overly dependent on poker tracker, hem, etc. our best players, marty smyth, john o'shea, rory reese-brennan dont use pokertracker or HEM (as far as i know) to beat their opponents, they learnt how to beat the game, not how to grind the stats, so they can play against the best and hold their own, our 'pros' can grind a living beatings stats, but put him up against a $25/$50 omaha player and he'll be outplayed left right and centre because the 25/50 player can adjust to beat the stat grinder.

step 1: irish card clubs STOP listening to punter and bring in more short stacked 20min clcok structures so players are forced to learn how to play a short stack better.
step 2: introduce $1/$2 NLHE cash games capped at $100 buy-ins like Vegas and a large number of gaming cities. This is also recession busting poker, and new clubs like voodoo card club would do well to be the first to try this.
step 3: anyone who wants to go beyond 1/2 or 2/4 should delete pokertracker and holdem'manager today. if you can beat 1/2 with PT, but cant beat it without PT, guess what, its PT that beats 1/2, not you, so when you play live, a break even 1/2 player wll do very well against you...

but i'm a losing fish... so what do i know!

this is just mind blowing. omg wtf.

NickyOD

I think part of the problem is Irish players play less online than in other countires. We are playing less hands and therefor improving slower because we are playing a lot more live poker.

Best way to improve your game is to play against good online regs, not the donks in local cardrooms.

Most scandies are prob putting in 5K hands plus per week online.

dagunman

nicky padraig has been around a little over 20 years no? and I would of taught andy aswel. This is a period when Ireland had a strong standard in the live poker scence. Where the tales of massive games in the 80's and early 90's.Marty made his way online and I think its fair to say that the skills he has used to acquire his success were acquired here and not in the card rooms of Ireland.
Despite Fintans fantastic results in the last year I still dont think 2/3 results can justify classing him as a top name. Even I do personely think Fintan is great and has offered sexual favours on several occasions.
Actually last year Padraig Parkinson, not your other good mate Padraig Harrington was saying that the reason Ireland was produced very little in the past years were that the live scence was so weak compared to when him, the Don, Alan Betson...... frequented the regular big games that took place in Dublin.

ocallagh

Wolves wrote: »

21 if you count the 2 lads from the north

oops, sorry Marty:o

NickyOD

dagunman wrote: »

nicky padraig has been around a little over 20 years no? and I would of taught andy aswel. This is a period when Ireland had a strong standard in the live poker scence. Where the tales of massive games in the 80's and early 90's.Marty made his way online and I think its fair to say that the skills he has used to acquire his success were acquired here and not in the card rooms of Ireland.
Despite Fintans fantastic results in the last year I still dont think 2/3 results can justify classing him as a top name. Even I do personely think Fintan is great and has offered sexual favours on several occasions.
Actually last year Padraig Parkinson, not your other good mate Padraig Harrington was saying that the reason Ireland was produced very little in the past years were that the live scence was so weak compared to when him, the Don, Alan Betson...... frequented the regular big games that took place in Dublin.

I don't think it's a question of just a lack of talent. We had plenty of very good players like yourself and the players you mentioned at the WSOP plus online regs like Rory, Jude, Derek and BigMickG, but I think there is now a very distinguishable talent gap (in general!) between players who just play live and players who play online regularly, which didn't exist in Padraig's time.

I think the volume of players who are qualifying for large events has a lot to do with it also. Look at the number of scandies in any EPT and compare to the four or five Irish playing.

ianmc38

Success in live tournaments has an extremely low correlation with the existence or lack of big live cash games. While I might play occasionally in a big game to get away from online play, I'd have no interest in frequenting a big live game. Furthermore, I dont think many of the successful online players would have too much interest either. The game is slow paced and high variance. While it might be nice for something different, it's not going to be anywhere near as profitable compared to playing X number of tables online. You also cant game select and are subjected to the unnatural hours that live poker is played at. I've no interest in sitting in with a bunch of degenerates to try and pry their last €1000 away from them when they're tilted at 6am in the morning. I'd much rather be sound asleep in bed.

Have to eat dinner now. bbl

cardshark202

What a dumb thread. I imagine if Gary thought it through now he'd be very embarrassed with himself.

Lol at poker is like the olympics.

doke

NickyOD wrote: »

I think part of the problem is Irish players play less online than in other countires. We are playing less hands and therefor improving slower because we are playing a lot more live poker.

Best way to improve your game is to play against good online regs, not the donks in local cardrooms.
.

I think both are needed. Some of the best online MTTers are absolutely useless live. They fail to adjust for the different ranges people have in live donkaments, they fail to pick up on the most obvious physical tells because they're too busy playing with their Ipods, they lack the patience to play a single table at a slower rate, they give off tons of tells themselves, they bluff way too much etc. etc. The ones who tend to do well are the ones who put a lot of thought and effort and preparation into coming to terms with the differences between live and online. Part of that is actually playing live regularly, not just showing up once a year at the WSOP. Had one interesting chat with a young Internet pro who lives in Vegas who does very well live even though it's not his focus and he makes sure to get himself into what he called "live shape" before every WSOP and WPT.

On the original article, it's easy to take too much from a small sample of live donkaments. Online MTTers are well aware that even the best players in the world could be down over a sample size of 10 or 20 or even 100, but we sometimes lose sight of that live. However, I agree with John's comments that lack of preparation does limit the ability of many Irish players to deliver their best.

It's been documented that the Scandis made rapid strides because groups of them formed collective think tanks that came up with and shared original ideas on strategies and approaches. With a small pool of top class players, Ireland could benefit from a similar approach but of course it's a double-edged sword when the guy you share your ideas with today could be the guy you end up having to play headsup next week back home. The lack of a significant local scene undoubtedly made it easier for the Scandis to take a more collective approach.

One final point that occurred to me in Vegas this year is that while in general Irish live tourney structures are excellent and good breeding grounds, most do not include a significant early ante which are a feature in most major international tournaments, and consequently Irish players who don't play a lot of online MTTs are not well prepared for the adjustments needed. As a generalisation, I think most TAGs play too tightly in the ante portion, and most LAGs are too spewy post flop.

pppspecial

very harsh reggie.
Gary you have a very valid point in relation to the wsop but not as a whole. We have in my opinion a very good showing worldwide in major tournaments.online also and in both forms of poker.(omaha and hold em). A lot of very successful cash game players and now a few in mixed games to.
From these results its very suprising that we havent done a better job in vegas but that really is only a matter of time.

D.C.C

John is right about one thing for sure........Regulate the casino's and the game will improve...Look at cities like melbourne with only one casino and Dublin with 10+ small card rooms all trying to compete with eachother,instead of one big casino with a big variety and spread of games.Vegas is a different story all together!!!

The sooner a gaming law is in place,a huge benefit will be seen by the Irish poker scene...As a result all the smaller places will close which will condense the games to 1 or 2 casino's and Jeff you will see fish everywhere no matter what the cap is!!! and i also think Pot Limit games will die out as a result...

Flipper

Comparing Ireland to the UK is a very unfair comparision to make. They have approx 15 times our population and have huge pockets of casinos and cardrooms all over the country. I would expect them to miles ahead of us country vs country in the course of the year.

You have to look to countries of a similiar size and population density where poker also has a similiar level of popularity. Two that come to mind are Finland and Denmark. I haven't checked the Hendon mob but I would say with confidence that they are MILES ahead of us. I talked to a Scandi guy at a tourney a while back (can't remember which one) and he said that for the last 3 years, him and 4 friends would get together and talk through hands from the week. He said they would have a few drinks while doing it but it was very much a "down to business" attitude and that he attributed his success to this. So, in short, yes I do think Ireland is falling behind.

zuutroy

I blame the FAI.