Irish players are just not cutting it.

jbravado

Jeff is a very very strange man imo.

Wreck

Enzo Scifo wrote: »

Not yet but if Womens Boxing gets in next month than anything is possible :rolleyes:

I'd like to see you say that to Katie Taylor, including the rolling of the eyes.

Padraig06

Give the lads a chance
Ive seen Marty go deep in the 5K trying to vindicate his 10K triumph
Others play their heart out
Are the knockers nuts?

JP Poker

ditpoker wrote: »

tired of having this argument.

poker, like everything, in order to grow and sustain, needs to be marketed toward the masses. YES, we all know that it would be best to play 55555555bb deep, but that takes fish out of the game and keeps quality in the game. we want to flood the water with fish. we want to LIMIT the amount of gazzilion bb deep games there are. capping cash games to 50bb is average joe friendly.

I have asked this 3 times before on boards, and never got an answer, it is always avoided. this will be number 4.

Why do Dublin/irish cardrooms insist on offering 1/2 uncapped pot limit games when Las Vegas (and others such as sydney and london) who thrive on tourists, use the 1/2 capped at 50bb model? is it to get all the poker pro's in? or is it to attract gambly gambly fishy tourists to their games where the pro's dont have a huge edge over them? Do they realise that bad players = good games?

I haven't read all of this yet Jeff. I do think running games for "Average Joe Friendly" is important. However I'm not sure if a capped game is the way to go about it.

I think €0.50 - €1 or even €0.25 - €0.50 is a better way to go about it.

fatguy

The most common complaint I hear from Average Joe is this: "It might be a €1 game, but sure you have to put €10 in every hand just to see a flop".

I often wonder why there are very few Sit and Gos in card rooms. They would suit the casual player who doesn't want to put a grand on the table.

ditpoker

LOL, i've clearly used some very silly examples to make some, imo, fair points.

dagunman wrote: »

I do agree with Jeff, (1)can anyone point to anyone who has emerged from the live poker scence who could be rated as a top player in the last 20 yrs.....(2) I have never seen any other countries in the world that have 1/2 plh as standard and the biggest game.

Two very good points. Its very easy to throw around the "poker is an individual game, not a team sport, who cares, etc etc argument, but the reality is the poker boom is good for every player. Keeping bad players and attracting new players feeds the games the good players are in. Think about how people move website due to low traffic etc etc. If Irish live games continue the way they are, imo, this is bad. If an Irish person wins the WSOP, or an EPT this is good for poker in Ireland, this is good for you (you = good players here!). For example, we all wanted Tiffani Michelle to do well in last years wsop and kara scott to win the Irish Open because it would be good for the game, it would attract so many new players... same logic can be applied to a poster-boy for irish poker winning the WSOP, it;d mean stuff like radio/tv interviews, ret/tv3 carrying wsop coverage, boyle/ppp etc increasing advertising budget... to suggest that the success of irish players in the wsop or in europe has no bearing on you as an individual poker player is very misguided.

TommyGunne wrote: »

This is just ridiculous. Firstly, you shouldn't really care if Ireland does bad, its not a team sport. Its cool to see guys doing well from Ireland, but its not like they're even representing Ireland. Secondly, imo we have a disproportionate amount of good players in Ireland given our population. Thirdly, just because we have no players in the top 250 of the WSOP ME this year, so what? That means precisely nothing. see above

And ona seperate note, capping cash games is just silly for all the reasons mentioned above.

If capping cash games is "just silly for all the reasons mentioned above" please please PLEASE explain to me why 100% of online card rooms cap the buyin? why do they do this? why not let you sit down at the $0.50/$1 game with $5,000 ??? Why? Please tell me?

5starpool wrote: »

Jeff, low capped buy in games and shorter stack tournaments. You must really want to kill live poker in Ireland.

aodea wrote: »

not much left to kill

+1

Deeper stacks and uncapped cash caters to the better players, caters effectively to the type of person that would visit Boards.ie-poker forum. Boards represents a tiny tiny percentage of the poker playing public. Deep games are bad for fish, and fish will leave. Casino tournaments number have dropped in the last 2 years, granted this is for many reasons, however, one of them is that they are increasingly unfriendly to bad players.

doke wrote: »

One final point that occurred to me in Vegas this year is that while in general Irish live tourney structures are excellent and good breeding grounds, most do not include a significant early ante which are a feature in most major international tournaments, and consequently Irish players who don't play a lot of online MTTs are not well prepared for the adjustments needed. As a generalisation, I think most TAGs play too tightly in the ante portion, and most LAGs are too spewy post flop.

This is the best post in the whole thread. The last tournament i played in the fitz had antes and they were a welcome addition.

jbravado wrote: »

Jeff is a very very strange man imo.

+1

Slash/ED

I really don't think deep stack tournaments are stopping anyone playing anything. If anything the fish like deeper stacks because they can limp call away to their hearts content without committing all their chips. I've never in my entire life heard anyone, bad or good, complain that structures should be shallower.

5starpool

ditpoker wrote: »

Deeper stacks and uncapped cash caters to the better players, caters effectively to the type of person that would visit Boards.ie-poker forum. Boards represents a tiny tiny percentage of the poker playing public. Deep games are bad for fish, and fish will leave. Casino tournaments number have dropped in the last 2 years, granted this is for many reasons, however, one of them is that they are increasingly unfriendly to bad players.

In terms of numbers, the last 6 months have probably been the busiest that the Fitz has ever been in terms of cash games and in terms of tournaments. Most of the festivals around the country are still doing well, and there seems to be no significant falloff in numbers compared to 12/24 months ago.

TommyGunne

If you cap irish games they will die very fast. The only incentive anyone good has to play live is playing deeper cos it sure as hell isnt the hands per hour doing your winrate any favours. Without that incentive any grinders will move online and a lot of cardrooms will suffer bigtime. I would guess that they would lose about 15% of their business in the short term and long term more as the better players left are them again forced online. No big games would run either ie the 2/5 plo. The reason it is different in ireland is the lack of games other than 1/2. In vegas you can just move up levels. In ireland you move online. Cardrooms would be cutting their own throat. It might actually increase the standard of irish players by forcing good ones online but Lol if you think Cardrooms would take it up.

pgodkin

Slash/ED wrote: »

I really don't think deep stack tournaments are stopping anyone playing anything. If anything the fish like deeper stacks because they can limp call away to their hearts content without committing all their chips. I've never in my entire life heard anyone, bad or good, complain that structures should be shallower.

Would have to agree average players lie tonnes of chips in front of them it gets them in a good mood, like there winning already! In one casino in wexford they were runnin a tourny givin 10k sarting stacks, every one taught they had loads of chips, no one grabed the concepts when i pointed out that they were only starting with 50 big blinds as they started at 100/200.


Average players think AK is the nuts and JJ are the worst hand they can be dealt. If they want to run off during a hand for a drink, piss or smoke they wait till the button gets to them and miss all there hands when in poisition. i dont think makin a shallower tourny with change these massive leaks!

phantom_lord

ditpoker wrote: »

If capping cash games is "just silly for all the reasons mentioned above" please please PLEASE explain to me why 100% of online card rooms cap the buyin? why do they do this? why not let you sit down at the $0.50/$1 game with $5,000 ??? Why? Please tell me?

so they get to squeeze as much rake out of people before they go busto. most people hate capped games, if u look at the b&m forum on 2+2 people get excited whenever anywhere gets rid of the caps. if people only want to buy in for 50 or 100 the facility exists for them to do so atm, the cap wont make anything different for them but it'll put everyone else off playing.

TommyGunne

pgodkin wrote: »

If they want to run off during a hand for a piss they wait till the button gets to them. I dont think making a shallower tourny will change these massive leaks!

Are you simply suggesting that irish players have huge bladders that take a long time to empty? If so i agree in that there is not much we can do.

smurph

Could you imagine trying to put a cap on buy-ins at the festivals in Ireland:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Joe Bloggs, stumbles to table with cunning plan (and moxy loads of Bulmers Cider on board) and 1K in pocket...
I want to sit down at the 1, 2 4 8 16, double whammy bammy, live straddley Holdem Game....

sorry sir there's a cap on the buy in :eek::eek:

Que rant, and trip back to bar

Zab

ditpoker wrote: »

If capping cash games is "just silly for all the reasons mentioned above" please please PLEASE explain to me why 100% of online card rooms cap the buyin?

They don't, a number of sites have 200bb tables. What would make you think that this has anything to do with them promoting the long life of the game anyway? Much more likely that they just think they'll rake more in the short term.

Deep games are bad for fish, and fish will leave.

Why are they leaving?

tbh, I don't have anything against a theoretical cap to be honest, but why did you choose 50bb? I'm also not sure why you think that everywhere else has a cap.

fatguy

50BB is the cap in the majority of cash games in casinos in Australia, that's how it came up.

Wolves

Slash/ED wrote: »

I really don't think deep stack tournaments are stopping anyone playing anything. If anything the fish like deeper stacks because they can limp call away to their hearts content without committing all their chips. I've never in my entire life heard anyone, bad or good, complain that structures should be shallower.

Structures should be shallower. There, now you've heard it.

Maybe the reason you don't hear it is because people who don't like the deeper structures just don't bother playing. I play very few tournies now because of exactly this - don't see the point in a 20-50euro tourny going on all night.

I'm fine with it for festivals or stuff like the Fitz EOM, even maybe a couple of nights a week for those that want it, but generally i do think average nightly tournies are too deep now.

aidankk

JP Poker wrote: »

I think €0.50 - €1 or even €0.25 - €0.50 is a better way to go about it.

This is the answer to getting more players to play, why cant any of the card clubs have a few games a week at these lower levels..

It makes no sense that the only game in town starts at 1-2 NL, to have any chance at all in these games 5-600 would need to be brought, anyone buying in for 50-70 only gets to see 2-3 flops before they are down to 40. This will put people off who dont play that much.. They will try for a while and get sick of it.

1 or 2 nights a week in the card rooms where the first game starting is .5-1 NL (no straddle) would have a positive impact as it gives players who aren't bankrolled for 1-2 (i.e. 99% of the people playing it) some kind of chance to play poker, with what seems like a reasonable amount of money 1-200 euro.

Add in one .25-.50c game once a week, call it starter cash game to generate interest.

1-2 nl is in reality way too big for the average industrial wage etc and cant provide an enjoyable night for the vast majority of poker players...


As for tournaments there is huge improvement at the moment look at the dungarvan Big Slick game last sunday 20k chips all the levels, 105 runners 120e. Anyone who playes regular pub poker cant go wrong with this type of game as it far better value (venue, food, dealers) than most of the regular weekly games going on at the moment.

As for Irish Players not improving, maybe there are too many like me lazy slobs who couldnt be bothered going a level further, which would require a bit of tought and some patience. I know loads of players me included who improved to a certain point and just didnt kick on from there.

Im lazy about traveling to play, im not bothered with online sats to big live tourneys and am generally at about the same level or worse than i was about 3-4 years ago..( which is bad calling station bluffer who gets away with it sometimes:o)..

But one step is admitting the fact that really most of us are just poor players, and i've definatly come to this conclusion about myself and maybe a reality check is in order..

ditpoker

I'll give my own example of the deepstack/structure putting me off a game. I have discussed this with a few people and generally they agree, some are good poker players some are not.

Cool hand lukes had a friday 100 game, 8k stack (may have been 10k) with 30min blinds... "this is what the players want" we were told and we all said what a great structure it was. I think at the time the Jackpot had a 50 game with 5k stack and 20min clock. Both games would start at approx 9pm, you could win the jackpot game and be home in bed by 2.30am. you could play the chl game til 4am and not win a cent. The decision of "I am going to go and play a long deep game for the next 8 hours" is going to to happen far less than the decision of "i quite fancy a game of cards, might go play the crapshoot in x club, sure its full of donks and is life tilting, but its a game of cards for a laugh..." ... poker = entertainment for the majority of us. A film analogy of same, the recent john woo movie, red cliff, is 4hrs 38mins in eastern cinemas, hollywood and european marketing execs figured western audiences wouldnt go to the 4hr 38mins version, despite it being better, and settled for a 2hr 20min version because more people would go to it. THIS is why shorter structures is better for theirish game.

cardshark202

racist

5starpool

Is choice not better for the Irish game? If you want shorter structures, pick the games you want to play in. 20/25 minute clocks, which is what is standard in most weekly tourneys here are hardly long binds in fairness. If people wanted a return to the structures that were in place a few years ago, we would never have left those days when you pay 50 for 3000 chips and had 20 minute blinds all the way. How the hell can someone learn to be a good player if that is all the optin they have other than the big buy in events?

Your argument is pants Jeff.

nVid

Would it be going too far assuming we are a plo nation?

Smurfit and Marty are wsop braclet winners both plo.

D.C.C

There is much more than the structure's to blame for the poor standard of live poker in Ireland.We are missing a variety because of too much competition in Ireland's casino's.Also in the cash games we are missing mixed games which helps to improve poker players and not to have just Hold'em players and mixed games also help players understanding of the game.
Although it comes from lazy players who think they understand a game without studying it....

Example:Irish people walking into casino and playing blackjack and other table games and have no idea how to actually play the games,and casino's will not teach you!!!So you have to get your ass off the sofa and study something you will spend money on.......

Wolves

5starpool wrote: »

Is choice not better for the Irish game? If you want shorter structures, pick the games you want to play in. 20/25 minute clocks, which is what is standard in most weekly tourneys here are hardly long binds in fairness. If people wanted a return to the structures that were in place a few years ago, we would never have left those days when you pay 50 for 3000 chips and had 20 minute blinds all the way. How the hell can someone learn to be a good player if that is all the optin they have other than the big buy in events?

Your argument is pants Jeff.

1. For a lot of people it has nothing to do with becoming a better player - it's a few hours entertainment.

2. Yes there are weekly tournaments that are faster but they are usually small buy in. What about a 100/200 buy in with a faster structure? I don't know of any (anyone does please tell me). Time for a turbo festival? After all there is a reason that online sites have got more and more turbo/super-turbo tournaments.

3. No, the majority of people probably don't want a return to the type of tournament you suggest, but a bit of variety is fine.

edit: maybe we are saying the same thing about variety from different angles

cardshark202

ROFL can't believe some people on boards are now asking for turbo donkaments after all this time

5starpool

Wolves wrote: »

1. For a lot of people it has nothing to do with becoming a better player - it's a few hours entertainment.

2. Yes there are weekly tournaments that are faster but they are usually small buy in. What about a 100/200 buy in with a faster structure? I don't know of any (anyone does please tell me). Time for a turbo festival? After all there is a reason that online sites have got more and more turbo/super-turbo tournaments.

3. No, the majority of people probably don't want a return to the type of tournament you suggest, but a bit of variety is fine.

edit: maybe we are saying the same thing about variety from different angles

1. That is what this whole thread is about though.
2. I'm sure some of the pub games meet this descripion due to time constraints, but I don't know if there are any in the 100+ range for this. I really don't think one in a club will get enough runners to make it viable (one with a 4k stack and 20 min clock for 150 buyin for example). I have no examples to prove it, but I know of lots of people who would not play this (including me)

We may well not be arguing the same points (thereby not disagreeing with each other) but I don't think the market is big enough for too much competition, even if they are fairly different type events.

Wolves

cardshark202 wrote: »

ROFL can't believe some people on boards are now asking for turbo donkaments after all this time

why?

mdwexford

Its nothing to do with structures of spread of different games or anything like that for the poor standard of play in Ireland, the retards in most card rooms cant even understand hold-em never mind 2-7 lowball or the likes. Its that most people are lazy brain dead donks who dont have any interest in improving or wouldnt even know how to go about improving their game.

This is obviously a good thing for the people who do have some idea about poker or a brain of some description.

YULETIRED

disicipline is the issue, nicky sez he was more disciplined and focsued for this years event and he performed well. The problem with us irish as Roy Keane will no doubt agree ,we fail to prepare properly. In many sports the social aspect of being an irishman has interfered with our approach to our game (Live that is) and so we set ourselves up to fail, look at the guys who are successful, hardly the wildest men . The scandies just look and laugh as we lie over the tables half dead from the tiredness and the drink. There are some great players in Ireland and it's only a matter of time before a stream of big results come home, this I'm afriad will have to accompany a more disciplined approach to these donkaments. I

Now feck off , the structures over here are excelent, don't change them.

mormank

fatguy wrote: »

50BB is the cap in the majority of cash games in casinos in Australia, that's how it came up.

it is not the cap at the games at the crown. i cant remember brisbane's treasury casino but i dont thik it is either

Rekop dog

Jeff is to poker what Greece where to the European cup- a purists nightmare.