Irish players are just not cutting it.

rag2gar

Some good points raised.

I write an article every month on Poker Ireland and thus every month brings a new topic to the table based on recent happenings. With the WSOP having just come to a close for another year it has to be the obvious discussion point. It's okay if some people don't care how the Irish fare out there/poker not being a team sport (I never said it was) but I've met and know a lot of people from poker over the years and I would genuinely like to see us do well.

I think there was a lot of reasons why the Irish were not "cutting it" this year and I forecast wont for some years to come unless attitudes change. As people seem to be of the opinion that results are purely consequential I will offer some reasons as to why I believe they are not.

For instance, I spent a lot of money playing satelites to the WSOP. On reflection I think this was foolish as my effort and subsequent winnings would have been far better spent on trying to build a bankroll rather than chasing a pipe dream (excuse the rounders-esque cornyness) in Las Vegas. Theres no point playing the WSOP unless you have got a healthy bankroll in place in the first place and can play it for what it is.

I played live poker three times this year in preparation for the WSOP. I've played plenty of live in the past but transfering play from online to live involves a lot of changes to your game, especially if you are playing cash over mtts online. I went to the main event playing my first tournament for 3 months, cold. That's not cutting it.

Some people sold off percentages. I'm not talking 1 or 2% here I'm talking upwards of 50% of their action. This is certainly a problem as it is clear the 10k buy-in is just so way beyond their roll they prob shouldn't even be in Vegas, let alone playing the ME. How can they be expected to go out there 100% carefree without even a smidgen of scared money. I won a satelite and yet I would still say i had an element of scared money as the first payout of 21k would make quite a difference to me. That's not cutting it.

The night before day three i witnessed as some players drank till 6am like it was the night before Good Friday. Like ffs if you cant lay off the drink for one week while playing in the World Champs then we really are a nation of alcos. We didn't cut it there.

Hookers and drugs I'm not even going to get into but there is no doubt that both trades were well-oiled each and every day of the WSOP by the Irish.

Table games are not a good mehod for getting your head in gear for a tournament that requires more patience than any bar none. I'm guilty here altho thankfully not as bad as last year. Still not cutting it.

For two years a row I went there and was simply outclassed on day two. I didn't cut it. I wasn't good enough as I play one or two 3k plus events a year jumping about 500 steps in the ladder in the process.

I and lots of others didn't win out there not because we lost coin-flips, not cause we ran bad but because we never gave ourselves any chance of winning. We ****ed it all up and will probably continue to do so for years to come.

DeVore

Your reply above this post, and the post I quote below are at odds.

One deals specifically with the hedonism of the WSOP and the OP deals with our standard as a nation.

When I toured with the EPT, doing reports, I saw considerably less of the excess that is common at the WSOP (where I would agree with you).

Personally I think Irish players, when focused, are some of the best in the world... my 2c.

DeV.

rag2gar wrote: »

Some good points raised.

I write an article every month on Poker Ireland and thus every month brings a new topic to the table based on recent happenings. With the WSOP having just come to a close for another year it has to be the obvious discussion point. It's okay if some people don't care how the Irish fare out there/poker not being a team sport (I never said it was) but I've met and know a lot of people from poker over the years and I would genuinely like to see us do well.

I think there was a lot of reasons why the Irish were not "cutting it" this year and I forecast wont for some years to come unless attitudes change. As people seem to be of the opinion that results are purely consequential I will offer some reasons as to why I believe they are not.

For instance, I spent a lot of money playing satelites to the WSOP. On reflection I think this was foolish as my effort and subsequent winnings would have been far better spent on trying to build a bankroll rather than chasing a pipe dream (excuse the rounders-esque cornyness) in Las Vegas. Theres no point playing the WSOP unless you have got a healthy bankroll in place in the first place and can play it for what it is.

I played live poker three times this year in preparation for the WSOP. I've played plenty of live in the past but transfering play from online to live involves a lot of changes to your game, especially if you are playing cash over mtts online. I went to the main event playing my first tournament for 3 months, cold. That's not cutting it.

Some people sold off percentages. I'm not talking 1 or 2% here I'm talking upwards of 50% of their action. This is certainly a problem as it is clear the 10k buy-in is just so way beyond their roll they prob shouldn't even be in Vegas, let alone playing the ME. How can they be expected to go out there 100% carefree without even a smidgen of scared money. I won a satelite and yet I would still say i had an element of scared money as the first payout of 21k would make quite a difference to me. That's not cutting it.

The night before day three i witnessed as some players drank till 6am like it was the night before Good Friday. Like ffs if you cant lay off the drink for one week while playing in the World Champs then we really are a nation of alcos. We didn't cut it there.

Hookers and drugs I'm not even going to get into but there is no doubt that both trades were well-oiled each and every day of the WSOP by the Irish.

Table games are not a good mehod for getting your head in gear for a tournament that requires more patience than any bar none. I'm guilty here altho thankfully not as bad as last year. Still not cutting it.

For two years a row I went there and was simply outclassed on day two. I didn't cut it. I wasn't good enough as I play one or two 3k plus events a year jumping about 500 steps in the ladder in the process.

I and lots of others didn't win out there not because we lost coin-flips, not cause we ran bad but because we never gave ourselves any chance of winning. We ****ed it all up and will probably continue to do so for years to come.

RichieLawlor

DeVore wrote: »

Your reply above this post, and the post I quote below are at odds.

One deals specifically with the hedonism of the WSOP and the OP deals with our standard as a nation.

When I toured with the EPT, doing reports, I saw considerably less of the excess that is common at the WSOP (where I would agree with you).

Personally I think Irish players, when focused, are some of the best in the world... my 2c.

DeV.

Same post imo

DeVore

Only if he's saying the WSOP is an example of it, rather then a specific case.

The excess at the WSOP is considerable and I would agree there, I'm not sure it could explain the "general case" he makes in the OP.

DeV.

rag2gar

No I messed up my OP on this thread. "Irish in Vegas 2009. We’re just not cutting it" was the actual article heading

mdwexford

Gary makes some valid points there but as far as i can see a lot of Irish people treat the annual trip to Vegas for the WSOP like a holiday and therefore want to get value for money for their trip and drink, gamboool at table games, hookers, coke, clubbing, late nights, whatever else your into etc.

This will obviously hinder people playing their A game but i suppose it depends are people willing to sacrifice "having the craic" in order to play at your best.

As regards the bankroll thing i agree but unless you're a 10/20 reg you probably arent rolled for a 20k+ trip to Vegas to go chasing a bracelet.

cardshark202

rag2gar wrote: »

No I messed up my OP on this thread. "Irish in Vegas 2009. We’re just not cutting it" was the actual article heading

Aha that makes more sense then.

I do agree that you shouldn't be trying to play a large tournament if you don't have the confidence and also if you get intimidated by the money at stake.

I personally don't understand when lads get wasted while still in the wsop or play table games. But its not just the Irish in fairness. The place if full of 20 something and 30 something lads for the series.

doke

Some decent points there Gary, though I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say about people selling percentages. I personally sold just over 10%, more as a favour to guys who have helped me out in the past who wanted to have an interest in the ME, so I know the comments are not really directed at me, but to be honest I see nothing wrong with guys selling 50% or whatever they need to reduce the effective buyin to their comfort zone/bankroll. Our highest finisher was someone who sold a big chunk and he has acknowledged that the responsibility he felt "playing other people's money" probably improved his performance.

Every one of us who "failed" in this year's main event did so for indvidual reasons. Some may have been feeling the after effects of the booze or the hookers, some may have been playing too far outside their comfort zone to not be scared, others may have been playing too far within their comfort zone to give much of a damn etc. etc. Some of us just ran bad or lost flips. The fact that a few Irish lads were on the booze the night before doesn't mean that every single Irish person's performance was booze hampered.

Returning to the issue of staking, it's worth noting that Akenhead is heavily staked. Any one wishing to investigate how they or any other Irish player might improve their approach to big events would do well to read his interview in Bluff. Some excerpts:

"The Hit Squad has been very successful....we're just a group of friends that travels together and supports each other. You always want someone on the rail cheering for you......we meet up once a week and talk about hands".

"I got to play twice as many events as I would have played because Neil staked me, so it was fair that he got half!"

"Do you have any tips on staying sane at the World Series?

Eat well, exercise, be healthy. That's the best advice I can give."

"In the Main Event we get 30,000 chips and the blind structure's really slow. People just don't know the difference between a one-hour and two-hour clock - you can be so much more patient. When they get A-J under the gun, they're not going to even consider folding when maybe really they should be thinking about folding. They're going to play hands they shouldn't, lose a few pots and then get frustrated; abusing the freedom of the tournament, basically, because that's what the structure gives you - freedom".

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

I think like any other nation we have our great, good and equally poor players. I think you should really be looking at a much bigger sample than one WSOP and we should be looking over a decade at what has been achieved by our poker players.

I do agree with points raised by Gary that we as a nation are probably not the best in terms of preparation in particular when in Vegas. We must also realise that a lot of our up and coming players are relatively young and may only be making their 1st/2nd trips to Vegas and with so many distractractions you can easily go off the rails. I personally will make adjustments the next time i go to Vegas and like everyone else who makes the venture over will know what to avoid and have themselves in the best shape possible to take down a large score.

smoothcall

Ye I'd agree with Doke in terms of selling %'s . I see no problem with selling %'s, sell halve and play it as a 5k tourney. I dont see a problem with that. I wouldnt have played anywhere near as much big tourneys if wasnt selling percentages, hopefully that experience will stand to me.

As for beeing rolled for it , probably less than 20% of the field are rolled for it. The point is whether you think it'll effect your play.

The other points are all valid enough.

Mellor

smoothcall wrote: »

Ye I'd agree with Doke in terms of selling %'s . I see no problem with selling %'s, sell halve and play it as a 5k tourney. I dont see a problem with that. I wouldnt have played anywhere near as much big tourneys if wasnt selling percentages, hopefully that experience will stand to me.

As for beeing rolled for it , probably less than 20% of the field are rolled for it. The point is whether you think it'll effect your play.

The other points are all valid enough.

I think it's fine to sell percentages, as long as you know it won't effect your play. Even people who are rolled for the event, or at least much closer than most of the field do it.
If I had the 10k buy-in for the ME, I'd rather play it twice selling 50% both times.

valor

way less than 20%

nicnicnic

the Scottish are really ****

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/ranking/202

digiman

nicnicnic wrote: »

the Scottish are really ****

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/ranking/202

You inspired me too look for myself, I'm so damn good they gave me 2 profiles, obviously forward thinking as all my results in future years won't fit on the one page!!

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=136702

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=112690

I'll put the irish back on the map with my 2 pages!!

nicnicnic

digiman wrote: »

You inspired me too look for myself, I'm so damn good they gave me 2 profiles, obviously forward thinking as all my results in future years won't fit on the one page!!

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=136702

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=112690

I'll put the irish back on the map with my 2 pages!!

drop them a fast email pokerdb@thehendonmob.com including both links and they'll sort that P

Jesus Wept

Why have I not been informed about 'fast' emails?!!
I've been sending regular speed emails like a fúcking chump.