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who voted for this?! "All email, text and phone records to be kept for 2 years"

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    #32
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    http://www.digitalrights.ie/2009/07/13/if-youve-nothing-to-hide-youve-nothing-to-fear/

    Speaking on the Last Word with Matt Cooper earlier today FF TD Niall Collins trotted out that old canard - “if you’ve nothing to hide, you’ve nothing to fear” - in relation to the new data retention bill. Curiously, when asked if he’d be happy to provide us with his mobile phone bills for the last two years and details of his emails for the last year he claimed not to understand the question and refused to do so.

    http://audio.todayfm.com/lwpodcasting.xml

    no supervision of this, no oversight.

    http://audio.todayfm.com/audio/20090713180010.mp3


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    #33
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #34
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    This is old news, mobile companies have been doing this ages it has just become regulatory so to speak.

    So becareful if your in the tallaghtband!


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    #35
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Joey the lips wrote: »
    This is old news, mobile companies have been doing this ages it has just become regulatory so to speak.

    So becareful if your in the tallaghtband!

    it is amazing what the mobile companies can get on you, if needed.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawful_interception

    I have seen the device that carries out lawful intercepts in a UK mobile operators network and IIRC, not only is it in a secure area, but also the people who have access to that area have to have certain security clearances before being authorised to work on that equiopment.

    The reason why i believe it will be well regulated is that the data will be retained by private companies who will ensure they are compliant. If it was left to government agencies i would be a lot less optimistic.

    However, I concur fully with OB's point, this is an absolute nightmare for mobile networks, so for ISPs it will be even bigger.


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    #36
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    The unfortunate thing in society believes that "Well if you have nothing to hide what have you to fear - Bar a couple of steamy calls with the boyfriend/girlfriend they can keep my records" But the americans say this from the outset for what it truly is....

    Its an erosion of your civil liberaties. One american worded it quite well I thought even though extreame. " You put a rabbit into boiling water and it will jump out.... But put a rabbit into cold water and slowly turn on the heat and you will have a stew in no time"

    You see we are slowly been tracked and traced to a point that it will be known what you intend doing before you have done it.

    No granted, they can track me all they want but its an interesting thought


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    #37
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    yep, it is an interesting topic. How much of our civil liberties do we give up in the fight against drug dealing, terrorism and peados? how much do we trust our government to use this information in a responsible manner? how much do we care?


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    #38
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    OB you seem to know whats happening what Bill is this and where can I read it, thanks (edit: just seen Scofflaw's response before mine)
    http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=12468&&CatID=59
    What other EU countries are implementing or having to implement anything like this?
    It's transposing an EU directive, so all member states have to do it. I believe the minimum retention period is six months.
    If its to deal with peados, then why do Revenue get access to data?
    It's for dealing with "serious crime".
    Wertz wrote: »
    If I draw that to another conclusion does this potentially mean the cost of net access goes up across the board to cover ISP costs imposed by this?
    I don't know yet. If the costs are truly onerous, then yes: we'll have to pass them on. It's not like the banks will lend us the price of the new equipment we'll need...
    ...and sorry to be selfish but this can't be good for d/l speeds at peak times without ISPs spending a ton of cash on new equipment can it?
    It should be possible to engineer it in a way that it doesn't hurt traffic speeds, but it's not going to be easy.
    Imagine trying to keep a record of every single packet sent and received of any and all random torrent files going in and out of the country...that can't possibly be workable...
    It's not clear to me what we're supposed to be keeping. That's one of my biggest issues with the proposal at the moment.


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    #39
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    To all you that that say "It should not concern me if I have nothing to hide". Think again, What if such records ends up unencrypted on a stolen laptop or pendrive?

    Don't say it doesn't happen, it has happened once too often now. The last thing someone wants to know is confidential data ending up in the wrong hands.


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    #40
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    What about data in secure transactions?

    Such as credit card details etc...

    Or personal identifiable info?

    This is disgraceful TBH. Next thing you know, you slam FF online, it will be deemed a serious crime.


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    #41
    Wertz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,909 ✭✭✭✭Wertz


    thebman wrote: »
    This is disgraceful TBH. Next thing you know, you slam FF online, it will be deemed a serious crime.

    In all seriousness with the raft of legislation pushed through in the last week or so, that's really the only conclussion you can draw...this surveillance bill, the criminal justice amendment, ban on legally held handguns (yes I know that was a wee while back) and the blasphemy bill....anyone would think FF are shoring up for a coup d'état or something...


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    #42
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    thebman wrote: »
    What about data in secure transactions?

    Such as credit card details etc...
    The actual content of a "communication" is not required to be stored, and in fact may not be stored. Basically it seems we'll need to store email headers, but not the body.

    Similarly, even if someone was daft enough to type credit card details into a non-secure web page, we won't be storing the content of the pages, just the fact that the user accessed the page - I think.


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    #43
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Oh right, will the URI stem be stored such as the as everything after the ? in address of this page?

    That can be quite revealing on certain sites about what activity people were up to.


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    #44
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    thebman wrote: »
    Oh right, will the URI stem be stored such as the as everything after the ? in address of this page?
    Honestly, I don't know, and - again - that's one of my biggest concerns about this whole thing.


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    #45
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    To all you that that say "It should not concern me if I have nothing to hide". Think again, What if such records ends up unencrypted on a stolen laptop or pendrive?

    Don't say it doesn't happen, it has happened once too often now. The last thing someone wants to know is confidential data ending up in the wrong hands.

    You could say the same thing about your bank or credit card company, they have all that info. You could also say the same about NTL/Bord Gais/ESB/Sky?Vodafone in fact anyone who has enough info to bill you.

    If your ISP is, for example, eircom, then they already have your banking details and know enough about what you are doing each month to bill you. As I say, most companies have and store this info already, it is just a case of how long they retain it for.

    Incidentally, one of the pieces of evidence that was used against Joe O'Reilly when he was charged with murdering his wife was the fact that he used his phone in a location which proved he wasn't where he claimed he was at the time. If the phone company had binned those records, he may have got away with it.


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    #46
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    If your ISP is, for example, eircom, then they already have your banking details and know enough about what you are doing each month to bill you. As I say, most companies have and store this info already, it is just a case of how long they retain it for.
    It's true that this legislation is less onerous on phone companies, as they use pretty much the data that's to be retained to determine how much to charge.

    It's a different story for ISPs. Even those ISPs that bill based on how much you use only need to aggregate either the total amount of time online, or the total amount of data that went to and from the customer's connection, in order to bill for it. The difference between storing a customer's total usage per month and storing information about every "communication" is several orders of magnitude.
    Incidentally, one of the pieces of evidence that was used against Joe O'Reilly when he was charged with murdering his wife was the fact that he used his phone in a location which proved he wasn't where he claimed he was at the time. If the phone company had binned those records, he may have got away with it.
    This is true, and is an argument in favour of this legislation.

    On the flipside, if everyone had continuous CCTV recording of everything they ever do in their house, that could come in useful in criminal investigations also. Does that make it a good idea?


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    #47
    Joey the lips
    Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    http://www.slate.com/id/2156397/

    above is the top 10 violations of civil liberties in the US. Just because we have nothing to hide it does not make it right that we accept it.

    I am not gay or homosexual but i should not have to defend myself if i am. This is one of the core aspects of civil liberties violation just becuase you dont do somethin does not mean you must accept it,


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    #48
    MackDeToaster
    Registered Users Posts: 330 ✭✭MackDeToaster


    Ridiculous legislation because of a) the civil rights/freedom/privacy violations, and b) it's easily bypassed by any 'serious' criminal/terrorist, eg. tor, jap/jondo, xerobank, not carrying a mobile, etc etc.

    The politicians who come up with this crap are so technically ignorant and behind the times that it's just not funny. Notwithstanding the privacy/rights concerns, this will prevent little of any importance and instead lead to a huge financial burden on isps and thus end-users.

    A previous government fell because of phone-tapping, and people wouldn't stand for having all their post tracked, so I fail to see how people can just accept this now other than out of sheer simple ignorance of the scope and implications of it.

    It's full encryption all the way for me now, simply as a matter of principle, and not paranoia or criminal intent.


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    #49
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Exactly the only reason they feel safe doing this is because most people are ignorant of the consequenes.

    Strange how the politicians can be so proactive on tracking online use but not the roll out of broadband or proper regulation of the service.


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    #50
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Incidentally, one of the pieces of evidence that was used against Joe O'Reilly when he was charged with murdering his wife was the fact that he used his phone in a location which proved he wasn't where he claimed he was at the time. If the phone company had binned those records, he may have got away with it.

    well the digitial rights guy said that wasn't applicable, that was case of investigating a specific person, who was a genuine suspect of a serious crime.

    anyway keeping the data 6 months would have dealt with that why 2 yrs?


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    #51
    Wertz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,909 ✭✭✭✭Wertz


    lostexpectation wrote: »

    anyway keeping the data 6 months would have dealt with that why 2 yrs?

    In case something takes longer to come out or to end up in court I imagine...


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