Massive plunge in tourist figures. licensing laws and €10 tourist tax did not help.

P. Breathnach

bangersandmash wrote: »

... You don't have to go to a Brittany hamlet to find reasonably-priced beer in France...

True, but finding a bar in a Brittany hamlet can be a very nice way to enjoy a beer.

Okay, folks, sorry for the interruption: back on topic now. The tax has had no impact on my travel. I do have a sense that air tickets are costing me a small amount more since it was brought in, but there are so many other variables involved in a trip that I don't dwell on the phenomenon.

djpbarry

bangersandmash wrote: »

And if they are, I wonder how they'll react to paying €6.50 for a poorly poured pint in one of our fine establishments in Temple Bar.

Why, in the name of all that is alcoholic, would anyone be prepared to pay that?

Terrontress wrote: »

Is it such a bad thing losing the booze focussed tourism?

I get your point and to be honest, I wouldn’t be sorry to see the back of the sort of “tourists” that are often seen around Dublin. However, whether we like to admit it or not, Ireland is a booze-centric nation and, as such, we are going to attract booze-centric people. This will result in anti-social behaviour in some cases, but in most it will not (and the same is obviously true of Irish people). The solution is to discourage the anti-social behaviour (with harsher penalties, for example) and not to discourage people from coming here to enjoy themselves (or Irish people from having a beer by closing off-licences at ridiculous times).

bangersandmash

Terrontress wrote: »

Is it such a bad thing losing the booze focussed tourism?

People staggering round Temple Bar being sick into their kebabs and fighting.

We're becoming like Amsterdam where we have so much to offer yet people just want to go for the lowest common denominator.

It may cause financial hardship in the first place but that kind of tourism is the sort we can do without.

I'd agree that Temple Bar-style tourism is very far from exactly ideal. But the "Irish pub scene" is an integral part of Irish tourism and has always been marketed as such. The county is practically synonymous with a pint of Guinness. And many visitors might argue that we don't have that much more to offer in many respects, although I'd personally not necessarily agree with that perception.

Appealing to the lowest common denominator is standard practice where tourism is concerned. I have Spanish and Greek colleagues who lament the crass nature of the tourist resorts in their respective countries. But that tourism is still a mainstay of their economies which they could not do without.

Unfortunately additional financial hardship for the country is not something we can currently afford. The service industries here will gladly take whatever tourism they can get right now (or cannot get as the case may be).

nuac

pub culture is part of the Irish scene.

I have always believed that all time related restrictions on the sale of drink should be relaxed. It would save the frantic rush to get in yet another round before the bar closes, to be drunk before they come around to collect the glasses - except that there are three earlier rounds on the table to be got rid of first.

Some such drinkers would be as well to pour the drink down the toilet to save the inconvenience of passing it through their system.

Opening hours would level out - there would be late houses, early houses etc.

It would save Garda time, and the farcical siight of some young Gardai calling into a pub to tell some drinkers old enough to be their parents to stop drinking and go home.

bangersandmash

djpbarry wrote: »

Why, in the name of all that is alcoholic, would anyone be prepared to pay that?.

Good question. Most Irish people probably wouldn't drink in the pubs in central Temple Bar at any price. But tourists are effectively corralled into an area where there's little competition and publicans seem to assume that there's no need to provide any value for money because there'll be another bus load of tourists along the next day.

topper75

Posters who think booze underpins the Irish tourist industry need to get out beyond Newlands Cross sometime. The majority of the tourists themselves manage to do so! Yes sampling Guinness is part of the Irish tourist product but getting blotto on the black stuff is a domestic or British pursuit largely. At current price levels, it isn't going to break the bank to have a pint of Guinness or two. I mean did you whinge in Brussels when paying handsomely for a Leffe or two?

Good riddance to the booze-centred weekendtrippers if they decide to fly elsewhere. For whatever little finanical contribution they make, it is simply not worth it in social costs for Dublin residents. We are never THAT much in need of foreign spending and we have enough of a domestic problem on that front.

Offie hours restrictions? :pac: - are you seriously picturing tourists trying to go to offies in Dublin at say 11.30 and going back to get blotto in the hotel bedroom. It's a red herring - it just doesn't feature. Again I suggest you are getting confused with you own holidaying agenda. No effect on tourism figures up or down.

djpbarry

topper75 wrote: »

I mean did you whinge in Brussels when paying handsomely for a Leffe or two?

Nope, because it's cheaper than it is in Dublin.

topper75 wrote: »

Good riddance to the booze-centred weekendtrippers if they decide to fly elsewhere. For whatever little finanical contribution they make, it is simply not worth it in social costs for Dublin residents.

Little financial contribution? You sure about that? I can think of quite a few pubs and bars around Dublin City Centre that are very heavily dependent on tourism. I think you're seriously underestimating the number of people who come to Dublin in particular, purely to socialise and, as I said earlier, that doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing.

bangersandmash

topper75 wrote: »

Posters who think booze underpins the Irish tourist industry need to get out beyond Newlands Cross sometime.

Really? According to Bord Failte the most popular tourist attraction in Ireland is the Guinness Storehouse. I don't think anyone is arguing that booze is or should be our sole attraction, but it's equally unrealistic to completely dismiss the fact that from abroad the quintessential Irish pub is seen as a defining feature of Irish culture, perhaps together with (and often associated with) our literary tradition. It's not about getting blotto, it's about providing a pleasant and value-for-money experience for tourists even if they only ever spend 30 minutes in one pub drinking a half of Guinness.

topper75 wrote: »

I mean did you whinge in Brussels when paying handsomely for a Leffe or two?

Sure you may pay more in a tourist pub off the Grand Place than you would in a suburb of Brussels, but at €3-4 it's still far cheaper (and of higher quality) than the equivalent in Dublin. Go to suburbs or smaller towns and the comparisons for food and accommodation becomes more stark.

topper75 wrote: »

Good riddance to the booze-centred weekendtrippers if they decide to fly elsewhere. For whatever little finanical contribution they make, it is simply not worth it in social costs for Dublin residents. We are never THAT much in need of foreign spending and we have enough of a domestic problem on that front.

Little contribution? Not that much in need? What country are you living in? Maybe you could explain to Colm McCarthy that things aren't THAT bad.

As for the social costs of alcohol for Dublin, I think the native residents can take far more responsibility on that front. The contribution of tourists pales in comparison.

Wertz

JMcCR wrote: »

That tourist tax of €10 really makes my blood boil. What about those of us who have had to leave the country to work...

I work in Holland during the week and fly home each weekend. Spend my earnings at home as much as possible and therefor bring money to the country, yet I get hit with this stupid tax on every flight which adds about €80 a month to my travel costs. :mad::mad::mad:

IIRC the Dutch goverment impose a much higher set of taxes for travel through their airports than Ireland does either before or after this tourist tax.
I have a lot of time for O Leary but he's a barking up the wrong tree on this issue...his comapny's policys on charging for anythign and everything would stop me from flying here (using that airline) quicker than any air travel levy.

I don't necessarily agree with the tax, I definitely don't agree with how it's been implemented but like it or not, we need to raise some revenue and this was seen as an avenue....what doesn't seem to have been foreseen is a fall in travellers due to recession and hence a fall in possible tax take from the scheme...these taxes were dreamt up by those still living in the land of NYC xmas shopping trip, weekly jaunts to UK football fixtures or regular trips to foreign property/holiday homes.

sceptre

Wertz wrote: »

IIRC the Dutch goverment impose a much higher set of taxes for travel through their airports than Ireland does either before or after this tourist tax.

That's been scrapped since July 1 as it reportedly caused a sharp decline in passenger traffic.

aquascrotum

My tuppence worth.

I'd agree that the E10 flight tax is going to put some people off. Maybe not the US folks who are booking a months holiday here 6 months in advance. But the last minute city-break bookers who decide the weekend before "sod it lets go away for the weekend" then definitely yes.

Apart from the the cost of just trying to live "out" in IE is incredible. Last month I had to go to Scotland for work. The boss agreed to let me move the ferry home to the Sunday evening so I managed to take the gf over and make it a weekend break. I booked 3 nights B&B (Thu-Sun) in a lovely wee inn outside Glasgow, probably Irish 3* equivalent. We ate there every night and put all drinks and food on the bar - that being 3 full courses each per night (great steaks) and at least 3-4 drinks each per night. My bill on check out was £390 and I left thinking it was worth every penny. We lunched most days for under a tenner for both of us.

We had a "sod-it" moment last weekend and booked a last minute long weekend in Sligo, Saturday - Tuesday. Booked into the Riverside Suites, (top-rated on Tripadvisor, pity about the headbusting music shaking the walls to 3am). Room-only cost me E280 for 3 nights. Dinner on 2 nights in 2 local pubs (pub grub), with one starter shared, 2 mains, no desserts and one drink each per night came to E140. This is Sligo ffs. We gave up and went and bought some pasta and sauces to try and survive out the rest of the weekend fearing bankruptcy. We looked hard for a "budget alternative" and there were simply none to be found. Even 2 filled white bread rolls, a cup of tea and a bottle of 7-up for lunch in an equivalent of O'Briens the afternoon we first arrived in the town cost E17.

I'm no stranger to living costs in RoI so wasnt surprised at the cost of the trip to Sligo - but having had the comparable trip to Scotland a matter of weeks beforehand really slapped it home just how much more expensive it is, and thats before the cost of getting here for tourists from the UK etc.

The word is growing too, a lot of northerners like myself went south last weekend to escape the twelfth and any I've spoken to are in shock how little they got for their money. There was about 20mins of Radio Ulster dedicated to the newsreader pissing and moaning to the FG tourism spokeswoman about having to pay E6 for a side salad and over 20 quid to park in Dublin for a few hours.

Wertz

sceptre wrote: »

That's been scrapped since July 1 as it reportedly caused a sharp decline in passenger traffic.

I was searching flights to Holland the other night looking for a bargain...the same €35-40 in taxes and charges were being applied by both Ryanair and Aer Lingus, as far as I could see, on the return leg...charges out of Dublin were about €25
I'm not saying you're wrong and in fact I hope you're not.
Perhaps there was a further tax imposed by the Dutch and later withdrawn ?

*wanders off to look again*

[edit]

Okay looked on ryanair again but they seem to be paying taxes and charges themselves on certain days/routes so the figures are all over the place.
Aer lingus seems consistent though, I've included an attachment.

Taxes & charges ex Dublin are €33.71, but ex Schipol are €44.51...what this breaks down to re tax or airport fees I don't know, but it doesn't matter...the net result is that it's more expensive to fly from Holland than it is from here. Not criticising the Dutch, just saying it's a bit silly screaming about our charges when other countries are higher.

topper75

bangersandmash wrote: »

Really? According to Bord Failte the most popular tourist attraction in Ireland is the Guinness Storehouse. I don't think anyone is arguing that booze is or should be our sole attraction, but it's equally unrealistic to completely dismiss the fact that from abroad the quintessential Irish pub is seen as a defining feature of Irish culture, perhaps together with (and often associated with) our literary tradition. It's not about getting blotto, it's about providing a pleasant and value-for-money experience for tourists even if they only ever spend 30 minutes in one pub drinking a half of Guinness.


Sure you may pay more in a tourist pub off the Grand Place than you would in a suburb of Brussels, but at €3-4 it's still far cheaper (and of higher quality) than the equivalent in Dublin. Go to suburbs or smaller towns and the comparisons for food and accommodation becomes more stark.


Little contribution? Not that much in need? What country are you living in? Maybe you could explain to Colm McCarthy that things aren't THAT bad.

As for the social costs of alcohol for Dublin, I think the native residents can take far more responsibility on that front. The contribution of tourists pales in comparison.

Correct on the storehouse popularity. However - nothing whatsoever to do with the price of a pint. It is an attraction in itself for which you pay something like 13/14 euro. You get one drink at the end. Most likely then they'll bus onto Killarney or wherever.

Literary tradition? Again a red herring. Very much a limited and Dublin-orientated thing, apart from the McCourt tours in Limerick and Nora Barnacle's place in Galway. Much as I like books myself, that is not what fills B&Bs around the country.

You won't get a pint equivalent in touristy thoroughfares of Brussels for 3/4 euro, unless you have a special wink for the barman:pac:! It's more like 6/7 in fact.

Yeah you read it right. Things are never THAT bad that our key marketing position in attracting foreign visitors is that you can come here and stay in the pub all day and we don't mind how abusive you get and sure puke where you like. We are not Albania yet!

I totally agree with your last paragraph.

djpbarry

topper75 wrote: »

You won't get a pint equivalent in touristy thoroughfares of Brussels for 3/4 euro, unless you have a special wink for the barman:pac:! It's more like 6/7 in fact.

That's nonsense, unless you're drinking pints of Leffe or some other high alcohol-content beverage. A pint of lager (Stella, Jupiler) will be around the €5 - 5.50 mark on Grand Place.

bangersandmash

topper75 wrote: »

Correct on the storehouse popularity. However - nothing whatsoever to do with the price of a pint. It is an attraction in itself for which you pay something like 13/14 euro. You get one drink at the end. Most likely then they'll bus onto Killarney or wherever.

My point about the Storehouse was that the most popular tourist attraction is intrinsically linked with Guinness, the Irish pub scene, and all that goes with it. We can't just dispense with that aspect of our tourist trade, even if it is simply a weak ruse to get tourists to visit.

The original issue here wasn't just about the price of alcohol, but the cost of living here in general. So most tourists will, as you say, have one pint in the Storehouse and then leave the capital for somewhere like Killarney... where they'll continue to get fleeced. Killarney itself is a particularly unfortunate example as it's even more unreasonable than Dublin and seems to revel in the gombeen alcoholic stereotype.

topper75 wrote: »

You won't get a pint equivalent in touristy thoroughfares of Brussels for 3/4 euro, unless you have a special wink for the barman:pac:! It's more like 6/7 in fact..

Was there two years ago and got glasses of Chimay for €4 in one bar on the Grand Place. No winking involved! There were only two places that seemed to be close to the €6 mark and they were easy to avoid. Plenty of cheaper spots off the Grand Place too. Though it is far more expensive than the likes of Antwerp. And we won't even start comparing Belgian beer to the slop served in most Irish pubs - that's another matter entirely

sceptre

Wertz wrote: »

Taxes & charges ex Dublin are €33.71, but ex Schipol are €44.51...what this breaks down to re tax or airport fees I don't know, but it doesn't matter...the net result is that it's more expensive to fly from Holland than it is from here. Not criticising the Dutch, just saying it's a bit silly screaming about our charges when other countries are higher.

Eindhoven charge less. I'm not actually arguing the case either way as I don't particularly care:) (I'm so often just a fact introducer), I'm just here to let you know that the Dutch government charge you're citing has gone and the stated reason for its abolition. Talk about Heathrow departure charges and other airports as they're as relevant to the case you're making as whatever the Dutch are getting up to but it's worth noting that the Dutch apparently did X because of Y, where Y is the same thing being brought up at the start of this thread. Correlation of course isn't causation so perhaps the Dutch are wrong in any case.

Wertz

sceptre wrote: »

Eindhoven charge less. I'm not actually arguing the case either way as I don't particularly care:) (I'm so often just a fact introducer), I'm just here to let you know that the Dutch government charge you're citing has gone and the stated reason for its abolition. Talk about Heathrow departure charges and other airports as they're as relevant to the case you're making as whatever the Dutch are getting up to but it's worth noting that the Dutch apparently did X because of Y, where Y is the same thing being brought up at the start of this thread. Correlation of course isn't causation so perhaps the Dutch are wrong in any case.

Yeah I noticed Eindhoven dropped back to nothing when I checked a few minutes ago. I'd pay the extra to schipol tbh...trains and messing about gets in the way of a short break.
The Dutch airports are about the only ones in europe I have recent knowledge of re: charges and I used the example to make a point.
Your link saying they dropped it due to counterproductivity is an interesting turn of events and in fact probably does a lot to help RTDH's case.
[edit] and O'Leary's

topper75

djpbarry wrote: »

That's nonsense, unless you're drinking pints of Leffe or some other high alcohol-content beverage. A pint of lager (Stella, Jupiler) will be around the €5 - 5.50 mark on Grand Place.

OK - I'll see your Stella and raise you a can of Dutch Gold in an Irish tesco!

You are not comparing like with like with your statement above djpbarry. A temple bar Guinness is the cheesy tourist experience of sampling the local brew in an Irish pub. The equivalent 'do Belgium' experience in Brussels would most certainly be Leffe or any other premium beer for which Belgium is famous on the Grand Place (and definitely not a Stella in some suburb off the tourist trail).

We are skipping off topic with this argument though. I contend that tourist will sample X amount beer whilst here (it is part of 'do Ireland' I have to conceed), however it does not constitute the bulk of their spend, unlike a lot of Irish tourists going abroad. Therefore it is wrong to look at price of a pint or closing hours as the reason why tourist numbers are down. Why are they down? Plenty of poster have pointed out the real reasons, among them:

Poor value on food and accommodation
Tighter global economic conditions
Less than enthusiastic service
Strong euro
etc. etc.

The airport tax is also a red herring and O'Leary, though I admire him, is talking out his rear end as he sometimes does.

topper75

bangersandmash wrote: »

My point about the Storehouse was that the most popular tourist attraction is intrinsically linked with Guinness, the Irish pub scene, and all that goes with it. We can't just dispense with that aspect of our tourist trade, even if it is simply a weak ruse to get tourists to visit.

The original issue here wasn't just about the price of alcohol, but the cost of living here in general. So most tourists will, as you say, have one pint in the Storehouse and then leave the capital for somewhere like Killarney... where they'll continue to get fleeced. Killarney itself is a particularly unfortunate example as it's even more unreasonable than Dublin and seems to revel in the gombeen alcoholic stereotype.


Was there two years ago and got glasses of Chimay for €4 in one bar on the Grand Place. No winking involved! There were only two places that seemed to be close to the €6 mark and they were easy to avoid. Plenty of cheaper spots off the Grand Place too. Though it is far more expensive than the likes of Antwerp. And we won't even start comparing Belgian beer to the slop served in most Irish pubs - that's another matter entirely

I agree with your first two paragraphs largely and conceed that 99% will want to visit the pub at some stage in their trip - it is defo part of the Irish holiday experience. We are overpriced generally and a pint is expensive. My point though is that the dear pint is not responsible for the tourist dropoff. It upsets locals yes (myself included) but it doesn't sway the tourist who thinking of going to see Ireland this year. Few tourists would make their decision on this basis (although sadly I know quite a few fellow Irish who would).

With the Chimay - you'll get a 4E glass but not a pint. I would say many Euro tourist venues are matching or topping Dublin for per volume beer prices in tourist areas.

Hasschu

There is a general distaste for surcharges that are itemized on tickets. The O'Learys like to stick it to gov't, airports and so on by itemizing surcharges on the ticket statement. If they took the approach of including all charges on the quoted ticket price then the backlash would be much less. I have taken flights where the surcharges exceeded the basic transportation cost. For example $99 return Toronto to Ottawa and $127 in airport cost, security cost, fuel surcharge. It irritated me no end, another thing that irritates me was some countries in South America impose a roughly 10 Euro charge for arrivals from countries that have imposed visa restrictions on their nationals (not Ireland). Even though they are perfectly justified in retaliating, it is not the cost it is the principle of the thing.