Bord Snip - who's for the Chop

stereo_steve

old boy wrote: »

so you claim that any one who cannot, or wishes not to, adapt to city life, shell out extra, to support the people that wishes to, why not have it the other way around.

The fact is, infrastructure and service wise , it is far more expensive to service people living outside of built up areas. Its a simple fact, not my opinion.

It costs more to bring a water pipe / electricity cable / telephone cable / health care to remote areas. Less tax is generated in those areas and they cost more to operate. Simple fact based purely on population sizes.

You seemed to think that the west was getting hit hard as if you were being targeted. The reality is its a lower populated area and that's why it might suffer.

alan4cult

This may seem like a stupid question but:

Are the cuts recommended in the Bord Snip Nua Report just recommendations or must the government adopt them right away i.e. can there be any negotiations?

McLovinit

I've just seen the 2 reports. On face value it would appear that most of what is in the report was substantially leaked so very little real surprises.

Will this change the way the public sector works?, ....I doubt it.
It basically means the public sector will continue to run in a largely inefficient manner but with fewer resources. Putting more strain on workers that already carry most of the deadwood and likely just bringing critical service areas to halt.

Real cost and permanent cost savings could have been acheived if McCarthy had of addressed the way public institutions actual function and perform. He has instead suggested to merge the some of the worst performing bodies with bodies that are larger but not by any means more efficient or providing better services. Its just adding bad work practices to largely worse work practices.

Very little for the Min for Finance to kop out on as McCarthy has largely done it for him

Carlow52

alan4cult wrote: »

This may seem like a stupid question but:

Are the cuts recommended in the Bord Snip Nua Report just recommendations or must the government adopt them right away i.e. can there be any negotiations?

Its just a list of suggestions: its up to Gov to implement or not as the case may be

hellboy99

Can someone explain to me how An Bord Snip Nua recommendations of €5.31 billion euro in cuts are going to save us money and help the economy

1. 17,350 state job loses - increase unemployment
2. 5% cuts to all social welfare payments
3. 20% cut in child benefit payments
4. medical card cuts
5. €1.2 billion cuts in the health budget - 6000 job losses
6. 6000 - 7000 job cuts in primary, secondary and third level education
7. some rural school closures
8. Gardai station numbers to be closed

So job loses, making the poor even poorer, make an absolute shame of our schools and the health system, increase crime rates, keep the rich, rich is the answer to the countries problems, what the hell is this crowd thinking :mad:

What we need is a change of government, decrease in the cost of running businesses / retail ie. VAT, taxes, rents, engery & fuel costs etc... , decrease in the cost of living ie. electric, phone, gas, fuel costs, health, food, goods etc..

The above mentioned recommendations from An Bord Snip Nua if implemented would be a disaster for the country.

BroomBurner

First off, OP, I am a bit disgusted with your attitude. I would never, ever sign off on a PMDS and issue an increment if I didn't believe that it was deserved. Perhaps you need to re-evaluate your ability to manage.

Secondly, the report today was interesting. I'd like to know how they plan to remove the staff numbers that they're talking about. Nothing is going ot happen for the next few months anyway, seeing as the government is on their holidays from the Dail and can't enact anything. That'll give them the entire summer to gather the feeling from the public about it and decide what to do.

Some of the suggestions were immensely poor though.

halkar

Snip Snip. Sounds like IMF to me

oncevotedff

solice wrote: »

17,000 state job losses...is this by natural waste (not replacing people who leave) or mandatory redundancy?

It's by natural wastage unfortunately. 17,000 redundancies won't come near doing the job. The Depts of Health and Education alone had an increase of 38,000 staff in the last 8 years. You have to wonder why?

An I notice that while the Snippers recommended the abolition of two Departments they also recommended the formation of two new ones so there still be jobs for the boys in the Dail.

zod

RTE special

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1052292

BornToKill

Sniipe wrote: »

6000 for the chop in the Health section; Thats a big number, how many are currently are working there?

About half.

ixoy

Haven't studied it in detail but it looks like the area I'm in is one of the few where they're recommending more investment!

For all those against cutting spending, I'd like to hear alternative suggestions...

oncevotedff

hellboy99 wrote: »

Can someone explain to me how An Bord Snip Nua recommendations of €5.31 billion euro in cuts are going to save us money and help the economy

1. 17,350 state job loses - increase unemployment
2. 5% cuts to all social welfare payments
3. 20% cut in child benefit payments
4. medical card cuts
5. €1.2 billion cuts in the health budget - 6000 job losses
6. 6000 - 7000 job cuts in primary, secondary and third level education
7. some rural school closures
8. Gardai station numbers to be closed

So job loses, making the poor even poorer, make an absolute shame of our schools and the health system, increase crime rates, keep the rich, rich is the answer to the countries problems, what the hell is this crowd thinking :mad:

What we need is a change of government, decrease in the cost of running businesses / retail ie. VAT, taxes, rents, engery & fuel costs etc... , decrease in the cost of living ie. electric, phone, gas, fuel costs, health, food, goods etc..

The above mentioned recommendations from An Bord Snip Nua if implemented would be a disaster for the country.

If the government takes a public servant earning €500 a week and puts him on the dole at a cost of €200 a week that's a saving of €300 a week per person.

The current Social Welfare bill is unsustainable.

So is the cost of health care. The taxpayer is being ripped off in being forced to pay hugely inflated prices for medicine.

In addition the depts of health and education are hugely overstaffed. They in particular, and the whole public service in general, should be reduced to 2001 levels at least by mandatory redundancies which would clear out the dead wood.

Small rural schools and Garda stations that are occupied for a few hours a day are a waste of money.

BornToKill

ixoy wrote: »

For all those against cutting spending, I'd like to hear alternative suggestions...

It may be a little toooooo alternative for some but I've been thinking:

http://www.vegas.com/gaming/gaming_tips/roulette.html

One spin. Black. €30bn. Double or quits.

It's risky but it worked for Nick Leeson. Okay it didn't but it could have.

BornToKill

oncevotedff wrote: »

If the government takes a public servant earning €500 a week and puts him on the dole at a cost of €200 a week that's a saving of €300 a week per person.

But it isn't. Once on the dole they will qualify for rent allowance, medical card, back to school clothing and footwear allowance and all the rest of it. It's not the €500 a weekers you should be looking at.

Arathorn

BornToKill wrote: »

But it isn't. Once on the dole they will qualify for rent allowance, medical card, back to school clothing and footwear allowance and all the rest of it. It's not the €500 a weekers you should be looking at.

The proposed cuts are voluntary or through natural wastage. You should read the report, Irish times has it available in full.

irish_bob

oncevotedff wrote: »

If the government takes a public servant earning €500 a week and puts him on the dole at a cost of €200 a week that's a saving of €300 a week per person.

The current Social Welfare bill is unsustainable.

So is the cost of health care. The taxpayer is being ripped off in being forced to pay hugely inflated prices for medicine.

In addition the depts of health and education are hugely overstaffed. They in particular, and the whole public service in general, should be reduced to 2001 levels at least by mandatory redundancies which would clear out the dead wood.

Small rural schools and Garda stations that are occupied for a few hours a day are a waste of money.

i fully agree , especially about the rural schools , i live in a parish with a population of 1500 yet thier are three schools , one with under 40 students , one with under 30 ( both schools have two teachers ) and the other which has over a hundred , if the two smaller schools were to be closed down , the furthest any pupil would have to travel to school is four miles , now what is wrong with that

irish_bob

BornToKill wrote: »

But it isn't. Once on the dole they will qualify for rent allowance, medical card, back to school clothing and footwear allowance and all the rest of it. It's not the €500 a weekers you should be looking at.

gosh , you make it sound like being on the dole is a sweet gig , oh wait , it is

McLovinit

BroomBurner wrote: »

First off, OP, I am a bit disgusted with your attitude. I would never, ever sign off on a PMDS and issue an increment if I didn't believe that it was deserved. Perhaps you need to re-evaluate your ability to manage.

I've 22 years experience working in management over which 2/3rds of it is in the private sector, i came with a fresh ideas thinking i could apply private sector logic to public ethics, after a very short period of time that appeared to be almost impossible. If your trying to tell me that the PMDS system is the best way to manage, motivate and incentivise staff then you've obviously never been in the "real world". The first basic premise is that pay rises should never be an automatic right and they should be based on exceptional performance not just by virtue of the fact that you've done your job for the previous 12 months as it appears in your contract. On this basis the above average performers are treated in the exact same way as the average joe or jane. I think you need to re-evaluate your logic to redundant management mechanisms and perhaps take some time out in the real worl.

ixoy

McLovinit wrote: »

I've 22 years experience working in management over which 2/3rds of it is in the private sector, i came with a fresh ideas thinking i could apply private sector logic to public ethics, after a very short period of time that appeared to be almost impossible. If your trying to tell me that the PMDS system is the best way to manage, motivate and incentivise staff then you've obviously never been in the "real world".

Umm I'm pretty sure BroomBurner agrees with you - in fact if anything she's even more hardline than you because she won't sign off on increases unless she thinks they're deserved!

I've never managed it, but I've had a look at it and it's pretty meaningless. Given the tiny minority who don't get an automatic pay increase from it, it should be over-hauled and there's many public and civil servants here who'd agree with that. It'd save money too and give a better name to the service as well as reward those who try - it's win win.

BornToKill

Arathorn wrote: »

The proposed cuts are voluntary or through natural wastage. You should read the report, Irish times has it available in full.

What I wrote, Arathorn, was in response to a previous poster who suggested saving €300 a week per person by putting them on the dole. I've seen the report - though I haven't read it all. It's very long and only came out this afternoon.

McLovinit

Yes Ioxy, i understand her point but my point is that we are rewarding average performers with pay increments. If i have someone that is not performing at all then that is a differnt matter and i would certainly not accept that. but its the people who have been in the system for such a long time that they are just going through the motions and they know that if they turn up and tick the boxes they'll get another pay rise.

Pay rises should be "awards" and not "systemic"

The big question is why the hell are we paying any increases even to good performers when we are supposed to be reducing payroll by 3%!!!!

dan_d

Some suggestions aren't bad, others are...pretty crap.
Increase the pupil-teacher ratio. Well, they spent the last 10years talking about how they were going to reduce it - which they never really did - so now we're going straight back to square one again. Anybody else see the article in a paper today about 1200 teachers applying for 1 temporary position in a primary school this week? Says everything.
Increase hospital charges. Okay....how come there are jobs advertised on publicjobs.ie for consultants for various depts in various hopitals around the country and the wage bills are 195,000 - 205,000 PER JOB????Where's that money coming from? Why aren't their wages being halved?They'd still get more money than most people (100,000 a yr) with a 50% pay cut. That would save the Dept of Health millions alone, I'm guessing. And correct me if I'm wrong but I believe most of these consultants can have private patients, therefore earning further amounts of money that can only be guessed at. Often on public time and in public facilities.Again - correct me if I'm wrong.
The solcial welfare bill is unsustainable. Child benefit - I don't necessarily agree with it, but it can't remain at the level it's at.
The problem with the school cuts is it won't be done in a sensible way....in true Dept of Ed style it will be done in the most awkward, difficult illogical way you can imagine.They're a bit out of touch.
They definitely need to take a long hard look at how they rearrange the public service. Wage cuts are a necessity, and probably phased redundancies. It's a tough balancing act though. Not sure I've much faith in them to get it right.
Anyway, FF have shown again that they are out to protect vested interests, and have little or no interest in the ordinary people of Ireland.

hellboy99

ixoy wrote: »

For all those against cutting spending, I'd like to hear alternative suggestions...

The cost of living in this country is too high (it's not falling) and that's why wages and welfare payments are higher here than in other countries, cause they need to be.
Taxing your way out of a recession and making cuts in areas without looking ahead at future problems it could cause does not work and is ridiculous.

As I earlier said in this thread what we need is a change of government, decrease in TD wages and expenses, decrease in the cost of running businesses / retail ie. VAT, taxes, rents, energy & fuel costs etc... , decrease in the cost of living ie. electric, phone, gas, fuel costs, health, food, goods etc..

After this is done then maybe some of the recommendations from An Bord Snip Nua could be implemented, but to just go ahead with these changes without doing the above mentioned would be a huge disaster for the country.

Beau

dan_d wrote: »

Increase hospital charges. Okay....how come there are jobs advertised on publicjobs.ie for consultants for various depts in various hopitals around the country and the wage bills are 195,000 - 205,000 PER JOB????Where's that money coming from? Why aren't their wages being halved?

You are right, but this particular report unfortunately was restricted by the government in that it couldn't recommend any pay cuts.

irish_bob

hellboy99 wrote: »

The cost of living in this country is too high (it's not falling) and that's why wages and welfare payments are higher here than in other countries, cause they need to be.
Taxing your way out of a recession and making cuts in areas without looking ahead at future problems it could cause does not work and is ridiculous.

As I earlier said in this thread what we need is a change of government, decrease in TD wages and expenses, decrease in the cost of running businesses / retail ie. VAT, taxes, rents, energy & fuel costs etc... , decrease in the cost of living ie. electric, phone, gas, fuel costs, health, food, goods etc..

After this is done then maybe some of the recommendations from An Bord Snip Nua could be implemented, but to just go ahead with these changes without doing the above mentioned would be a huge disaster for the country.

when social wellfare or wages fall , so too will the cost of goods and services , theese things happen organically in the market , its not like the state which takes six months to react to change , if someone on the dole has thier dole reduced from 204 a week to 120 , the place where they shop has no choice but to drop thier prices , they have to keep thier prices in tandem with the purchasing power of their customers , otherwise they will go out of business , as the cost of living went up in tandem with wage and social wellfare hikes , so too it will on the way down , it is the way of things , always has been , your cut wages and cost of goods and services go down , not the other way around like you are suggesting

mickos

hellboy99 wrote: »

As I earlier said in this thread what we need is a change of government, decrease in TD wages and expenses, decrease in the cost of running businesses / retail ie. VAT, taxes, rents, energy & fuel costs etc... , decrease in the cost of living ie. electric, phone, gas, fuel costs, health, food, goods etc..

After this is done then maybe some of the recommendations from An Bord Snip Nua could be implemented, but to just go ahead with these changes without doing the above mentioned would be a huge disaster for the country.

I can't see how the government could think about making any meaningful reductions in taxes. We are borrowing €400Million every week thats collosall. First things first is going to have to be reducing that deficit.

I'm afraid the private sector is just going to have to do the best it can on its own for the time being. And thats going to mean plenty more companies failing I'm sorry to say. its going to be a tough road ahead for everyone. There will be uproar and stikes within the public sector, meanwhile, private businesses will be quietly failing due to falling demand.

The country will pull through this and I believe will be stronger for it. We as a people are strong, resiliant and intelligent. Now is the time for these qualities to come to the fore.

jos28

Just out of curiosity, how much did Mr McCarthy get paid for compiling his report ?

granite man

That would be fine if everyones wages dropped to 120 a week but as you can see from the many posts above that is obviously not going to happen although I wouldn't be surprised that quite a few self employed folk like myself have been attempting to live off similar for quite a while now without the added benifits of being on the dole. The point being that retailers would pack up and either leave these shores or just go bust as it just isn't possible to sell stuff so cheaply while the huge overheads of trading here exist. I've had to drop my prices to compete but the raw materials are still as pricey, so all I can do is drop my margins and hope my partner can keep her job and keep us alive. We're also keeping chickens and growing veg just to manage.
To me the best solution would be some sort of debt forgiveness programme. Bail out the country instead of the banks, form an independent bank to keep the country going and hey presto, people would have money to spend, taxes would start to come in, customer confidence would improve and slowly but surely the economy would expand again. Just a thought.

hellboy99

irish_bob wrote: »

your cut wages and cost of goods and services go down , not the other way around like you are suggesting

Tell that to my last employer :rolleyes:

97i9y3941

means testing child benefit seems kinda sensible one way,plenty of business people and well off where getting it no questions asked about their income,heard also about the tightening the egibilty of college grants aswell,but then the people that provide the funding for it all the working class dont get an college grant if they go to college...