Bord Snip - who's for the Chop

bug

jos28 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, how much did Mr McCarthy get paid for compiling his report ?

God knows. They love to outsource consultancy, ironic and telling that the government themselves didn't have the know-how to come up with the fairly obvious overview by themselves.
I'd say it's because they can't use microsoft word, and needed to outsource because of the couldn't be bothered factor.

amacachi

Fred83 wrote: »

means testing child benefit seems kinda sensible one way,plenty of business people and well off where getting it no questions asked about their income,heard also about the tightening the egibilty of college grants aswell,but then the people that provide the funding for it all the working class dont get an college grant if they go to college...

Just read that they're recommending cutting the dole for under 25s and no grants for those on the BTEA, meaning I'll be on 150 a week max with about 9,500 to pay for the first year fees. Nice. As I've said before, if there's loans available I couldn't give a ****e about fees.

Means testing child benefit is tough, do it at a high level and it doesn't cut expenditure by much, do it at a slightly lower level and it'll be yet another push towards the income levels one could get on the dole. And with the Medical Card means test being reduced to the dole level and no more there's going to be even more people better off on the dole instead of working.

maninasia

hellboy99 wrote: »

The cost of living in this country is too high (it's not falling) and that's why wages and welfare payments are higher here than in other countries, cause they need to be.
Taxing your way out of a recession and making cuts in areas without looking ahead at future problems it could cause does not work and is ridiculous.

As I earlier said in this thread what we need is a change of government, decrease in TD wages and expenses, decrease in the cost of running businesses / retail ie. VAT, taxes, rents, energy & fuel costs etc... , decrease in the cost of living ie. electric, phone, gas, fuel costs, health, food, goods etc..

After this is done then maybe some of the recommendations from An Bord Snip Nua could be implemented, but to just go ahead with these changes without doing the above mentioned would be a huge disaster for the country.

I agree. Thinking should be integrated. For the next 5 years the costs in the economy for doing business should be brought down. That means ESB focusing on reducing electricity cost as a priority in short term rather than green policy. VAT should be reduced to 15%, most semi-states fully privatised and sold off when global markets improve in next 2 years. Drop minimum wage by a couple of euros at least, drop social welfare to encourage people to work or only give them full amount if they are in worthwhile education. Stop pumping so much money into government sponspored research and start attracting small innovative companies to set up in Ireland with grants instead, they will lead the way forward. Unfortunately the Euro does not allow us to devalue our currency so this is the only way. The country needs to reorient to an international export, finance and trading economy....sorry to say it but retail and property sectors are just a by-product of a good economy, not the other way around.

j1smithy

bug wrote: »

God knows. They love to outsource consultancy, ironic and telling that the government themselves didn't have the know-how to come up with the fairly obvious overview by themselves.
I'd say it's because they can't use microsoft word, and needed to outsource because of the couldn't be bothered factor.

The reason I think the government itself didn't undertake the report itself is due to the correct belief that only an outsider can be truely rational about cutting services. A government report would have been open to interference and in the end it could be accused of suggesting cuts in the wrong places because someone knew someone who had pull in the department that drafted it. An independent report also makes it harder for the opposition to criticise, especially if implemented.

None of the hard decisions will be made before Lisbon anyway, especially in relation to public sector cuts.

BroomBurner

McLovinit wrote: »

Yes Ioxy, i understand her point but my point is that we are rewarding average performers with pay increments. If i have someone that is not performing at all then that is a differnt matter and i would certainly not accept that. but its the people who have been in the system for such a long time that they are just going through the motions and they know that if they turn up and tick the boxes they'll get another pay rise.

Pay rises should be "awards" and not "systemic"

The big question is why the hell are we paying any increases even to good performers when we are supposed to be reducing payroll by 3%!!!!

I've posted many times on Boards agreeing with this same sentiment. I would prefer to see payrises be given to people who deserve them i.e. those who would normally receive a 4 or a 5 on the PMDS system. These would be on a yearly basis and if a worker's standards dropped, even enough to get a 3, then they would not get a payrise. There is no arguement from me on this.

I'd also like to point out that at no stage did I say that the PMDS system was perfect and the way to go.

BroomBurner

jos28 wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, how much did Mr McCarthy get paid for compiling his report ?

The cost of the report was €38,400.

CatacombKittens

irish_bob wrote: »

gosh , you make it sound like being on the dole is a sweet gig , oh wait , it is

No it isn't. Rent Allowance is still not universally accepted and there's only so many of those additional payments you can qualify for if any.

€200 a week seriously sound like a lot for you? Some people just don't know the value of money. You could piss most of that away in a weekend. If you drink or smoke or do anything, it's not very sustainable. Sure if you sit around doing nothing and are excellent at budgeting and can live off cheap unhealthy food, you could stockpile €100 a week. Which again, you still won't be able to spend on very much.

Ironically when you have worse welfare, you probably just reinforce the "Lazy" welfare person stereotype since they don't have money to do anything else.

Sweden is more of a welfare state than us and they don't have that problem. That's one of the reasons the Open Source movement is so popular over there. Unemployed people are actually productive since they're not treated like ****.

when social wellfare or wages fall , so too will the cost of goods and services , theese things happen organically in the market

But it hasn't happened. Because people need essentials like food, the price can remain static. As long as people can afford €80 a week or so. The thing is, they won't be able to afford anything else. For example, toys for the kids, gear for sports, whatever. The private sector outside of the supermarkets will take a huge hit because they can't compete with bare essentials.
.
What'll happen is that the cost of living doesn't come down, but those areas take a huge hit because people can't afford them. Not terribly good for the economy.

jos28

BroomBurner wrote: »

The cost of the report was €38,400.

Thanks for that, I have to admit that I expected it to be a much higher figure.

gurramok

CatacombKittens wrote: »

€200 a week seriously sound like a lot for you? Some people just don't know the value of money. You could piss most of that away in a weekend. If you drink or smoke or do anything, it's not very sustainable. Sure if you sit around doing nothing and are excellent at budgeting and can live off cheap unhealthy food, you could stockpile €100 a week. Which again, you still won't be able to spend on very much.

Ironically when you have worse welfare, you probably just reinforce the "Lazy" welfare person stereotype since they don't have money to do anything else.

Sweden is more of a welfare state than us and they don't have that problem. That's one of the reasons the Open Source movement is so popular over there. Unemployed people are actually productive since they're not treated like ****.

But it hasn't happened. Because people need essentials like food, the price can remain static. As long as people can afford €80 a week or so. The thing is, they won't be able to afford anything else. For example, toys for the kids, gear for sports, whatever. The private sector outside of the supermarkets will take a huge hit because they can't compete with bare essentials.
.
What'll happen is that the cost of living doesn't come down, but those areas take a huge hit because people can't afford them. Not terribly good for the economy.

Not sure what you are getting at here.

200quid is more to suit anyone's needs. My healthy food bill would be lucky to hit 50quid a week.

If i'm on the dole, i do not need to drink or smoke, the dole is there for essentials to live on, not for toys and sportsgear.

givyjoe81

Kristopherus wrote: »

Here yous go Public Service bashing again. OP if its such a load on you , why don't you get the hell out and try the private service for a while.

Assuming this guy is genuine, and i see no reason why he isnt, just wtf are you on about?? Perhaps he doesnt leave because despite being 'forced' to give cretins pay rises they dont deserve he realises that he does have an extraordinary well paid secure job. Christ, it beggars belief, stupid response. God forbid someone workign in the PS should actually tell it like it is. Guess we dont have to even ask which kind of PS worker (that the OP described) you are.:rolleyes:

hellboy99

Another pile of our money wasted on another stupid report. Should of gave me that €38,400 so I could pack up and leave this joke of a country and head off to Canada.

Is it any wonder this country is in a mess when all we have running it is a bunch of idiots and crooks. The rest of the world must be having a great laugh at us.

Scofflaw

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Assuming this guy is genuine, and i see no reason why he isnt, just wtf are you on about?? Perhaps he doesnt leave because despite being 'forced' to give cretins pay rises they dont deserve he realises that he does have an extraordinary well paid secure job. Christ, it beggars belief, stupid response. God forbid someone workign in the PS should actually tell it like it is. Guess we dont have to even ask which kind of PS worker (that the OP described) you are.:rolleyes:

Don't make the debate personal.

moderately,
Scofflaw

francish

hellboy99 wrote: »

Can someone explain to me how An Bord Snip Nua recommendations of €5.31 billion euro in cuts are going to save us money and help the economy

1. 17,350 state job loses - increase unemployment
2. 5% cuts to all social welfare payments
3. 20% cut in child benefit payments
4. medical card cuts
5. €1.2 billion cuts in the health budget - 6000 job losses
6. 6000 - 7000 job cuts in primary, secondary and third level education
7. some rural school closures
8. Gardai station numbers to be closed

So job loses, making the poor even poorer, make an absolute shame of our schools and the health system, increase crime rates, keep the rich, rich is the answer to the countries problems, what the hell is this crowd thinking :mad:

What we need is a change of government, decrease in the cost of running businesses / retail ie. VAT, taxes, rents, engery & fuel costs etc... , decrease in the cost of living ie. electric, phone, gas, fuel costs, health, food, goods etc..

The above mentioned recommendations from An Bord Snip Nua if implemented would be a disaster for the country.

Points 1-8 above have been recommended becasue we have to cut public sector expenditure. What most people dont seem to realise is that there is no choice between cut or dont cut. We can talk about the different ways of cutting expenditure but what ever measure is taken it is going to reduce demand in the wider economy.

hellboy99

francish wrote: »

Points 1-8 above have been recommended becasue we have to cut public sector expenditure. What most people dont seem to realise is that there is no choice between cut or dont cut. We can talk about the different ways of cutting expenditure but what ever measure is taken it is going to reduce demand in the wider economy.

But you can't cut peoples incomes and then just leave the cost of living the way it is, that would just be stupid, that's just adding to the problem not solving it.

Increasing class sizes don't work either, my son is going from a class size of 17 last year to near 40 this year, a class full of 9 - 11 years old. Last term was one of the best in years for the school with regards to learing performance results. I can only imagine how teacing 40 pupils will turn out and how much he and others will learn this term.

Health cuts in an already under funded and shame of a system, now that's really helping.

Gardai number cuts and stations to be closed at a time when crime is on the way up.

If you bring the Bord Snip plans in without fully looking at the future implications, problems and not lowering the cost of living here, you are just going backwards and adding more fuel to a fire which is already out of control.

francish

hellboy99 wrote: »

But you can't cut peoples incomes and then just leave the cost of living the way it is, that would just be stupid, that's just adding to the problem not solving it.

Increasing class sizes don't work either, my son is going from a class size of 17 last year to near 40 this year, a class full of 9 - 11 years old. Last term was one of the best in years for the school with regards to learing performance results. I can only imagine how teacing 40 pupils will turn out and how much he and others will learn this term.

Health cuts in an already under funded and shame of a system, now that's really helping.

Gardai number cuts and stations to be closed at a time when crime is on the way up.

If you bring the Bord Snip plans in without fully looking at the future implications, problems and not lowering the cost of living here, you are just going backwards and adding more fuel to a fire which is already out of control.

The Irish government are expected to spend c.€54b and have income of c.€35b for 2009, leaving an deficit of €19b which must be borrowed (Note - there are different projections out there, but most would broadly agree with above figures). This is not sustainable, how do you propose we address deficit?

Increasing class sizes will work, it will reduce expenditure. I am not being smart here, just stating facts. It would be lovely if we could all afford to have class sizes of 10 but we cant afford it.

My every mesure the cost of living is falling in Ireland.

Idbatterim

i pray to god the IMF have to come in, the steps outlined in the Report are the absolute minimum that have to be done and if this is getting people up in arms, I wait in hope for the IMF to come in and put things right!

finishedart

astrofool wrote: »

Whatever else said about her, Harney's problem has been that she wasn't allowed to instigate the cuts needed in the public health service when they could have been (formation of the HSE) because of FF hand wringing. This has lead to the costs of the HSE spiralling out of control, with most of the wages being spent on administration rather than doctors and nurses.

My wife is a Carer for our 16 yr old boy who is very disabled. She has had her Carers Allowance 'suspended' for re-assessment. This is because I received a family inheritance 10 years ago. They're looking in every corner to save the lolly. :mad:

P. Breathnach

Idbatterim wrote: »

i pray to god the IMF have to come in, the steps outlined in the Report are the absolute minimum that have to be done and if this is getting people up in arms, I wait in hope for the IMF to come in and put things right!

The IMF should not be burdened with our problems.

givyjoe81

Fred83 wrote: »

means testing child benefit seems kinda sensible one way,plenty of business people and well off where getting it no questions asked about their income,heard also about the tightening the egibilty of college grants aswell,but then the people that provide the funding for it all the working class dont get an college grant if they go to college...

What are you on about working class dont get a college grant?! Iv been funded with grants for 7 years of college in total up to masters level, and yes I am what would be classed 'working class'.

hellboy99

francish wrote: »

My every mesure the cost of living is falling in Ireland.

Yeah, since I started shopping up the north my cost of living has come down :rolleyes:

CatacombKittens

gurramok wrote: »

Not sure what you are getting at here.

200quid is more to suit anyone's needs. My healthy food bill would be lucky to hit 50quid a week.

If i'm on the dole, i do not need to drink or smoke, the dole is there for essentials to live on, not for toys and sportsgear.

Where do you shop that you can afford healthy food for 50 quid a week exactly, and what do you get? You probably spend more than you realise or are eating considerably less healthy than you realise. Maybe you eat a lot less than other people. Even my old housemate who was amazing at budgeting couldn't manage quite that much and he was buying all value stuff for the most part.

Benefits doesn't just mean people too "Lazy" to work. It's people out of a job and also disabled people who find it even harder to get a job in this weather. I get disability. I have far too many stress, social and emotional related issues to work a 9 to 5 job for some time to come. Not only does our ****ty system make it hard for me to get any kind of reasonable help for my condition, I can't really manage to get a job even if the climate was a bit better. I'm the first kind of person not to get a job.

Why, exactly, should someone have to sit around doing absolutely nothing because they're unemployed? How is that productive? Other countries have managed stable welfare systems like the Scandanavian countries. With so many people on welfare them being unable to spend any spare money is not going to help the economy anyway. Why don't you realise or even attempt to address this.

I think it's just a ridiculous right wing viewpoint that should have been left behind in the 80s. People should be entitled to some decent quality of life and a UK level of welfare is not that decent quality of life. People's mental and physical health suffer at that level of income.

#The Irish government are expected to spend c.€54b and have income of c.€35b for 2009, leaving an deficit of €19b which must be borrowed (Note - there are different projections out there, but most would broadly agree with above figures). This is not sustainable, how do you propose we address deficit?

I thougth it was pointed out that these numbers were severely exagerrated to begin with? If the numbers jumped up to these values all of a sudden, how could they not have seen it coming?

The thing is that the government can only push these things so far. Because Irish people are let's face it, apathetic and lazy of thought, this is the real obstacle. If people are supportive of this ****, it'll be even worse than before because there's no hope.

Again, whoever said it earlier was right, there needs to be serious restructuring to help bring the cost of living and reduce expenditure. This Bord Snip is like the equivalent of Shock Therapy to solve a complex mental problem.