Judge closes loophole used to avoid speeding penalty points

Gregor Samsa

From the Indo:

MOTORISTS may no longer be able to use the excuse of failing to get a speeding notice in the post as a way to avoid extra penalty points or a higher fine in court

[...]

But a new ruling from Circuit Court Judge Michael White that proof of posting of the notice, as distinct from proof of receipt, is sufficient for the courts was described yesterday as "breaking new ground" and of having "ramifications all over the country".

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/judge-closes-loophole-used-to-avoid-speeding-penalty-points-1824424.html

mikewest

Is this a binding precedent or a judicial opinion subject to appeal?

peasant

But how can they prove that the notice was sent ...other than by registering it?

ronnie3585

peasant wrote: »

But how can they prove that the notice was sent ...other than by registering it?

Yeah, they'll just register the summons.

Robbo

peasant wrote: »

But how can they prove that the notice was sent ...other than by registering it?

Recorded post as opposed to registered post, I think. You get a receipt stamped by the post office that took the first took the letter in.

Tipsy Mac

In any non incompetent country they would simply increase the fines by €5 to pay for registered post and that would 100% resolve the delivery issue.

Paulw

mikewest wrote: »

Is this a binding precedent or a judicial opinion subject to appeal?

I believe it's a precedent, and is not subject to appeal.

Robbo

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

In any non incompetent country they would simply increase the fines by €5 to pay for registered post and that would 100% resolve the delivery issue.

You then have 2 options:

1. Another, say, half a dozen public sector workers whose sole responsibility is to fill out registered post forms. These of course will need maternity cover, annual leave cover, sabbaticals and proper training in how to lift an envelope safely and without injury.
2. Alternately, you can go the PD route. Announce it's going out to tender, make sure a former party hack gets the contract and attach a load of lenient conditions to it which will not be met. Give the service a snazzy name, rife with managementspeak like the Executive Agency for the Pushing of Envelopes Outside The Box. Await public outrage when it it reported that they failed to meet a target of delivering 75% of tickets to 50% of the correct addresses within a 12 month timeframe and then asked for more money for the privilege.

By god, I feel like Sir Humphrey today.

Busta Hyman

surely this is up for a challenge otherwise use the " i sent in the fine and here i have proof of postage" defence to counter the "we sent you the fine and we have proof of postage"

im not a legal eagle but surely this breaks some form of basic rights

the gardai can just say it was posted / it sets this in a place that affords you NO possibility of a reasonable defence

ronnie3585

Paulw wrote: »

I believe it's a precedent, and is not subject to appeal.

It can be appealed to the High Court on a point of law.

Paulw

Busta Hyman wrote: »

im not a legal eagle but surely this breaks some form of basic rights

the gardai can just say it was posted / it sets this in a place that affords you NO possibility of a reasonable defence

That's not correct. You will be given a fixed period to pay the Fixed Penalty Notice, once you are served with court summons.

cashmni1

Paulw wrote: »

That's not correct. You will be given a fixed period to pay the Fixed Penalty Notice, once you are served with court summons.

As Far as I know, as soon as you get a court date, you cannot pay the fine. It is too late at that stage. (It was for me)

Paulw

cashmni1 wrote: »

As Far as I know, as soon as you get a court date, you cannot pay the fine. It is too late at that stage. (It was for me)

According to that ruling, the judge would permit an adjournment, and a note to allow the FPN to be paid.

maidhc

A decision of the circuit court doesn't really carry any weight to be honest. The barristers claim the judge "was breaking new ground" also speaks for itself.

Judges can't make law. They interpret it. This is one judges interpretation. It may be right, or it may be wrong, but it most certainly isn't a closed loophole.

And what is wrong with requiring a FCN be sent be registered post? Seems reasonable to me.

maidhc

cashmni1 wrote: »

As Far as I know, as soon as you get a court date, you cannot pay the fine. It is too late at that stage. (It was for me)

That is correct. That is exactly the problem and why people "get off".

astrofool

It's not so much "judge closes loophole" as "Judge makes bigger mess of sending fines by unregistered post".

Seriously, there is a law that covers contracts called the postal law, I don't see why this shouldn't cover fines also.

TheNog

peasant wrote: »

But how can they prove that the notice was sent ...other than by registering it?

The problem is not with the letter being sent, it lies whether or not the letter was received.

cashmni1 wrote: »

As Far as I know, as soon as you get a court date, you cannot pay the fine. It is too late at that stage. (It was for me)

Paulw wrote: »

According to that ruling, the judge would permit an adjournment, and a note to allow the FPN to be paid.

Once the 56 day period has expired there is no chance to pay to the FPN. A court appearance is then on the cards but the judge may give you the benefit of the doubt and fine you the same amount ie €80 as on the FPN and apply the same amount of penalty points

cpoh1

maidhc wrote: »

A decision of the circuit court doesn't really carry any weight to be honest. The barristers claim the judge "was breaking new ground" also speaks for itself.

Judges can't make law. They interpret it. This is one judges interpretation. It may be right, or it may be wrong, but it most certainly isn't a closed loophole.

And what is wrong with requiring a FCN be sent be registered post? Seems reasonable to me.

Exactly the case maidhc, every judge has a different interpretation and until the registered post situation arrives this will keep going and going.

Anyone seen any precedance with people who have received the fine and posted the notice off with payment and then gotten a summons? Is this thrown out of court or is the initial judgement applied?

smash

cpoh1 wrote: »

Exactly the case maidhc, every judge has a different interpretation and until the registered post situation arrives this will keep going and going.

Anyone seen any precedance with people who have received the fine and posted the notice off with payment and then gotten a summons? Is this thrown out of court or is the initial judgement applied?

Anything for a few quid...

partyguinness

What was happening in the District Court was that drivers were saying that they never got the Fixed Notice Charge Sheet(some are genuine and some are not so genuine....;)).

The guard cldnt prove it was sent and the Judge usually struck it out and the driver avoided the penalty points and fine.

Now some Judges accepted that it was posted even without evidence and convicted the driver regardless. Of course, they are then free to appeal to the Circuit Court.

maidhc

cpoh1 wrote: »

Anyone seen any precedance with people who have received the fine and posted the notice off with payment and then gotten a summons? Is this thrown out of court or is the initial judgement applied?

The attitude of one Judge in Cork is that he is very sympathetic to people who have made an effort to pay a fine and have been frustrated by bureaucracy. He tends to strike them out, but other judges do different things.

As regards Penalty points. If a person is convicted or pleads guilty of speeding in court they get 4 points. They cannot get two in court, the judge has no discretion because the penalty points system has nothing to do with him, it is administered seperately.

FGR

It's a loophole that's needed looking into for quite some time now. In fairness.

Only in Ireland could you get away with it.

cashmni1

maidhc wrote: »

The attitude of one Judge in Cork is that he is very sympathetic to people who have made an effort to pay a fine and have been frustrated by bureaucracy. He tends to strike them out, but other judges do different things.

As regards Penalty points. If a person is convicted or pleads guilty of speeding in court they get 4 points. They cannot get two in court, the judge has no discretion because the penalty points system has nothing to do with him, it is administered seperately.

I had to re-read that.
Its just rediculus. To me that is a breach of my rights. - If you contest the decision, you will get double the penalty. FFS.
And yes, yes, I know, "Its the Law".

jmck87

First of all, penalty points for speeding is not law, its legislation from an act.

The Fixed Penalty Notice is not a fine, its a notice that you are requested to pay with your consent.

Without proof of receipt, no judge can "interpret" the legislation within the rights of the court and lawfully issue a subsequent fine. You can always appeal if proof of sending is all that is given.

Every man is a law unto himself. You can get away with any speeding fine if you know the game. A lawyer will not play the game for you because they swore their oath and recognise the court's jurisdiction. But thats all a bit off topic...

maidhc

cashmni1 wrote: »

I had to re-read that.
Its just rediculus. To me that is a breach of my rights. - If you contest the decision, you will get double the penalty. FFS.
And yes, yes, I know, "Its the Law".

no it is very smart actually.

You get 4 points for speeding. Full stop. BUT if you pay the FCN you get a "discount" of 2!

Gregor Samsa

cashmni1 wrote: »

I had to re-read that.
Its just rediculus. To me that is a breach of my rights. - If you contest the decision, you will get double the penalty. FFS.
And yes, yes, I know, "Its the Law".

It's actually the other way around. 4 points for speeding, but if you choose not to contest it, you get a discount and only get two applied.

Edit: beaten to it by maidhc

cashmni1

phutyle wrote: »

It's actually the other way around. 4 points for speeding, but if you choose not to contest it, you get a discount and only get two applied.

Edit: beaten to it by maidhc

Stop stop stop.
Whoop de whoop. 50% Discount for admitting the crime. Brilliant.









OK, I'll stop now.

maidhc

cashmni1 wrote: »

Stop stop stop.
Whoop de whoop. 50% Discount for admitting the crime. Brilliant.

That is a pretty normal feature of all criminal justice systems. The idea is if people have an incentive to admit their wrongdoing they won't clog up the system. I'm sure you have heard of "plea bargaining" in the context of Us crime dramas and all that... same idea.

partyguinness

phutyle wrote: »

It's actually the other way around. 4 points for speeding, but if you choose not to contest it, you get a discount and only get two applied.

Edit: beaten to it by maidhc

That should be clarified...if you pay the fine on the fixed notice charge..you get 2 points and the €80 or €120 fine..

If the Summons issues and it goes to Court then you will get 4 points on conviction...no discount from the Judge unless he strikes it out entirely.

Busta Hyman

just clarify this for me . where i live the post is SHI*E.

so if i get done for speeding i have to wait for the FPN in the post b4 i can pay it ?


if i get a summons the gard just has to turn up with proof of postage and im fooked?

daRobot

Christ, what clowns are in charge of this system?

Just send the FPN by registered post, and that's it.

It's the exact same procedure that an insurance company use, if you are late sending in documents (Licence/Proof of Bonus), to tell you that your insurance will be cancelled unless they receive them in 10 days etc. It keeps it all Kosher from a legal standpoint.

People are right to take the piss and chance it in the courts, when there's such a retarded system in place.

amacachi

Trouble is that registered post isn't 100% reliable either. My parents were waiting for a letter and when they enquired about it they were told that they had signed for it 4 days beforehand when they were about 12 miles away from the house, so there'll always be people claiming they didn't get the fine.

Jo King

What is not obvious from the newspaper report is what proof of posting was offered and was the evidence of posting challenged.

Arathorn

I think most people who say they never received the notice are just chancers but there will be genuine people too which is why its unfair. For example I am renting, I recently moved house, between moving it took a few weeks to get my registered address changed. If a gatso caught me the notice could be sent to my last address and I would never know.

astrofool

amacachi wrote: »

Trouble is that registered post isn't 100% reliable either. My parents were waiting for a letter and when they enquired about it they were told that they had signed for it 4 days beforehand when they were about 12 miles away from the house, so there'll always be people claiming they didn't get the fine.

The signature not matching would make the case easy to dismiss if it went to court.

i think if this system is brought in, there has to be a system where we can check if we have penalty points pending.

it's ridiculous.. i went past a tripod at 80 a while back on the way to oranmore. now i'm thinking of moving house. if i got caught, i won't get my post and fine and i end up in court.

if i could check if there were points pending, i would. stupid country.