An Bord Snip Nua

irish_bob

turgon wrote: »

Ok.

The government spending bill went wild during the boom, with FF paying for things they didn't need simply because they had the money. Now that this tax base is all but gone, the natural thing to do it curtail the lavish spending. To those who grew up during the boom this may seem unreasonable, as they have become accustomed to such government, but it is not natural nor right. I believe spending cuts should be deep, but should be done in such a way as to prepare for the future out of the recession. With this in mind, I believe education should not be cut as we need to look ahead. I believe that all the gains in Public sector wages during the boom need now to go the exact other way. I believe minimum wages must go down disproportionately to deflation as they went up disproportionately to inflation. Welfare must be completely and utterly rationalized. It amounts for 1/3 of our spending bill.

I accept rises in taxation, but only small ones and where absolutely necessary. I define "absolutely necessary" as situations where deep spending cuts have been made and we need tax merely to rectify the budget deficit allowed to escalate during the boom.

We need to keep our eye on the future economy and we need to stay competitive. We need to encourage business and foreign investment by showing the Ireland is a place where hard work and risk is rewarded. I believe now that we have costed ourselves out of low level manufacturing jobs, the place where we must perform is in higher grade, entrepreneurial powered, business.

We need to get out of this recession without shooting ourselves in the foot. We must not give into to petty jealousies and grudgeries of the rich, but realize that by encouraging business we create jobs.

while education should not suffer , do you believe teachers pay should be cut so as to bring it closer into line with our nearest neighbour and other european neighbours

turgon

irish_bob wrote: »

while education should not suffer , do you believe teachers pay should be cut so as to bring it closer into line with our nearest neighbour and other european neighbours

If thats the way deflation goes, then yes. Once the student teacher ratio doesnt change, id be happy with pay cuts. I think that are way more important spending cuts to be made before changing that ratio. So Id prefer to see more teachers working for less pay than less teachers working for more pay.

Its my opinion that the teachers are suffering from political semantics. Its easier for Cowen to say "The student teacher ratio is being changed" than "2,000 jobs are being lost." They amount to the same thing but politically the latter sounds worse. Thats why teachers got the brunt imo, rather than the other public servants who arent half as critical as teachers.

irish_bob

turgon wrote: »

If thats the way deflation goes, then yes. Once the student teacher ratio doesnt change, id be happy with pay cuts. I think that are way more important spending cuts to be made before changing that ratio. So Id prefer to see more teachers working for less pay than less teachers working for more pay.

Its my opinion that the teachers are suffering from political semantics. Its easier for Cowen to say "The student teacher ratio is being changed" than "2,000 jobs are being lost." They amount to the same thing but politically the latter sounds worse. Thats why teachers got the brunt imo, rather than the other public servants who arent half as critical as teachers.

i agree but thier cries of WONT SOMONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN do come across as weasel words when you consider that no increase in class sizes would be nesscesery were thier wages to be cut

turgon

Indeed. My father is actually a teacher and he voted against the strike action against the pension levy. He said we all needed to help each other by making sacrifices, which was an honorable sentiment.

Teaching, you must remember, is usually an extremely safe job. In fact once your put on a permanent contract your pretty much guaranteed a job. Its primarily the younger teachers who suffer from ratio changes.

One of the things that peeves me when teachers demand pay rises etc is that they have good holidays and a secure way of life, but they refuse to acknowledge this.

luckat

When we're comparing pay, dole, tax, etc with our neighbours, we're not necessarily comparing like with like.

Other European countries tend to have a host of services available that just aren't available here; Peter McVerry, an expert on the subject, talked at length about this on Vincent Browne the other night.

eddiej

Could not agree more, when teachers (which is a pretty tough job for a lot, the dodgers are out there and should be gone) go on about the poor likkle children I just start shouting at the TV radio then take a pay cut and we will ring fence the money to save the children. Not a chance they are the same as all the rest of the Irish NIMBY's out and out. You can cut back but not me, well when will people start to realise we are all in this no matter how much we like it. I aint for a doomed IMF scenario but we will be paying back debt for years and it will cripple us as a nation. Do people not make the link to how thier personal mortgages, car loans, credit cards (banks must laugh giving these out) are crippling them this borrowing will cripple us all.

On the PS again there has been no announcement that increments are to be stopped. I have a long way to go on my scale yet but really they have to be stopped. I know this hits a lot of new entrants at lower pay but at least we have jobs and if Govt was really brave they could make EVERYONE go back 1-3 steps on their scale (this could be a sliding effort depending how long you were at a certain point blah blah blah). Increments will just lash up the public secctor pay bill and probably undo a lot of the good from recruitment freeze and natural wastage.

Finally can we not ditch the 7.5% pension levy and just implement a pay cut of the same amount. The big advantage is that it will cut our pension bill. Remember people who were retired got bench marking increase in their pension, now I dont believe much productivity was achieved but how the hell could pensioners contibute a productivity increase.

Just for the record i believe that PS cannot be managed ah la the PD's it is service provision not a commercial entity and must be manged differently. But it is not managed it is run for political gain at all levels.:(

turgon

luckat wrote: »

Other European countries tend to have a host of services available that just aren't available here; Peter McVerry, an expert on the subject, talked at length about this on Vincent Browne the other night.

Any examples?

ei.sdraob

^^ pretty much sums it up

luckat

turgon wrote: »

Any examples?

No, unfortunately TV programmes are not yet podcast, so it's not possible to give you a link to Peter McVerry's examples, Turgon.

One personal one: someone I know works freelance in another European country, and during the summer holiday season has virtually no work. This person is paying tax and PRSI, and so during the summer is entitled to benefit of €900 per month.

Eire_prince

The Economist wrote: »

We can't touch judges' pay.

And we'd get about €100,000, or about 0.0% of the deficit by halving Ryan Tubridy's pay.

Deflation is running about about 4% so those on social welfare are essentially getting a 4% increase this year. It should of course be brought down by at least 4%, probably more because they should shoulder some of the pain as well.

considering that those on social welfare have already been hit, in the reduction of rent allowance by 10%, due to the apparent decrease in current rent, I have yet to see any reduction in rent by existing tenants, this may be apparrent for new tenants.

most of the deflation is caused by the reduction from lower mortgage interest payment and reduction in petrol and oil which will soon be going backup in time for winter as usual.

it was suprising that the bord snip didnt have a remit to really look at salary in the public sector.

one thing I dont understand is, wasnt the bank meant to repay the money once they got sorted out and pay for the government assistance, now look at what happened to banks in america some of them are already returning to profit and already paid back what they got from the american government.

going back to the social welfare situ, it is through no faults of their own that people who recently lost their job, are now expected to lose money due to bord snip.

remember this was done bout 6 or 7 years ago by the taniaste coughlan when she borught in 16 sweeping benefit cuts, til she was replaced by then minister Brennan.

it is always easy to hit those who are vulnerable, rather than those who made the mess.

I have a few suggestion, axe the artist excemption scheme, allow those who get free electricty from the household benefit scheme switch to another comnpany so the government get the saving back, claim back money for faulty purchase like PPARS, electronic voting, the garda communication equipment, end retention job for serving minister who are teachers, doctors

irish_bob

luckat wrote: »

When we're comparing pay, dole, tax, etc with our neighbours, we're not necessarily comparing like with like.

Other European countries tend to have a host of services available that just aren't available here; Peter McVerry, an expert on the subject, talked at length about this on Vincent Browne the other night.

peter mc verry,s area of expertise focuses on the very very poor , what relevance was there to teachers in what he said

irish_bob

Eire_prince wrote: »

considering that those on social welfare have already been hit, in the reduction of rent allowance by 10%, due to the apparent decrease in current rent, I have yet to see any reduction in rent by existing tenants, this may be apparrent for new tenants.

most of the deflation is caused by the reduction from lower mortgage interest payment and reduction in petrol and oil which will soon be going backup in time for winter as usual.

it was suprising that the bord snip didnt have a remit to really look at salary in the public sector.

one thing I dont understand is, wasnt the bank meant to repay the money once they got sorted out and pay for the government assistance, now look at what happened to banks in america some of them are already returning to profit and already paid back what they got from the american government.

going back to the social welfare situ, it is through no faults of their own that people who recently lost their job, are now expected to lose money due to bord snip.

remember this was done bout 6 or 7 years ago by the taniaste coughlan when she borught in 16 sweeping benefit cuts, til she was replaced by then minister Brennan.

it is always easy to hit those who are vulnerable, rather than those who made the mess.

I have a few suggestion, axe the artist excemption scheme, allow those who get free electricty from the household benefit scheme switch to another comnpany so the government get the saving back, claim back money for faulty purchase like PPARS, electronic voting, the garda communication equipment, end retention job for serving minister who are teachers, doctors

i dont really get the link between wellfare being reduced and those on it being unemployed through no fault of thier own line , besides , many of the new to the dole are tradesmen who have had ten golden years , cant for the life of me understand how they are overnight completley reliant on state support , did not a single person in this country save a few shillings for a rainy day

turgon

irish_bob wrote: »

i dont really get the link between wellfare being reduced and those on it being unemployed through no fault of thier own line , besides , many of the new to the dole are tradesmen who have had ten golden years , cant for the life of me understand how they are overnight completley reliant on state support , did not a single person in this country save a few shillings for a rainy day

I think the general goal of most people here is to get the state to assume as much responsibility as it possibly can. Also, the rich cant do any good and the non-rich cant do any bad.

luckat

Eire_prince wrote: »

I have a few suggestion, axe the artist excemption scheme, allow those who get free electricty from the household benefit scheme switch to another comnpany so the government get the saving back, claim back money for faulty purchase like PPARS, electronic voting, the garda communication equipment, end retention job for serving minister who are teachers, doctors

The artist exemption scheme does two things: allow dirt-poor artists, writers and musicians to eat, and bring money into the country.

But Eire, you're absolutely right about the free electricity - crazy that they can't switch, didn't realise that.

Ending the retention job - good plan, though perhaps they should get a few years of grace, so if they're voted in once and never again they won't be out of a job.

Claiming back money for faulty purchases; from whom?

Eire_prince

a lot more than just trades men who were put on the dole, labourers, shop assistants, factory workers, can you imagine what would happen if someone pays for employment protection in insurance were to find out that the insurance company decided to give you lest than what you were paying into, just cause there deflation.

at the end of the day it was managers, CEO's who made money not the workers, even then most workers might just be on minimum wage

Elmo

CLOSED FOR RECESSION. COME BACK WHEN IT IS OVER, THANKS.

Any child could have produced this reported not insightful, lacking creditability and ultimately a huge waste of money on another unworkable report.

Mario007

Eire_prince wrote: »

a lot more than just trades men who were put on the dole, labourers, shop assistants, factory workers, can you imagine what would happen if someone pays for employment protection in insurance were to find out that the insurance company decided to give you lest than what you were paying into, just cause there deflation.

at the end of the day it was managers, CEO's who made money not the workers, even then most workers might just be on minimum wage

but you see you would be all for getting more money than you were paying for due to inflation, right? you can't simply go one way. besides the dole is something that you dont pay for, the jobseekers benefit is the one that you 'pay for' through PRSI, the jobseekers allowence, or the dole, is something that goes to everyone regardless whether they worked in their life.

the point about the managers and CEO making all the money you should also know that lots of workers also made money thanks to the rising minimum wage, strong unions and in public sector the benchmarking process and vote buying by FF. once again you need to look at the issue from both perspectives

Mario007

Elmo wrote: »

CLOSED FOR RECESSION. COME BACK WHEN IT IS OVER, THANKS.

Any child could have produced this reported not insightful, lacking creditability and ultimately a huge waste of money on another unworkable report.

would you like to elaborate?

Eire_prince

from companies who sold it, another thing if it doesnt work or never used why pay millions to store it

Spiritoftheseventies

Eire_prince wrote: »

from companies who sold it, another thing if it doesnt work or never used why pay millions to store it

backs to the wall time. time for tough decisions but lets hope they are thought out properly.

Eire_prince

the artist excemption scheme can be modified so once the artist has established themself then they should have it removed after say a period of 7 years, like mortgage interest relief

ending of job retention should be done asap, at the end of the day they are in the dail for a minimum of 5 years, while the job is retained, they have an increase to their pension, also due to their training they will be able to get a job easily

luckat wrote: »

The artist exemption scheme does two things: allow dirt-poor artists, writers and musicians to eat, and bring money into the country.

But Eire, you're absolutely right about the free electricity - crazy that they can't switch, didn't realise that.

Ending the retention job - good plan, though perhaps they should get a few years of grace, so if they're voted in once and never again they won't be out of a job.

Claiming back money for faulty purchases; from whom?

Elmo

Mario007 wrote: »

would you like to elaborate?

Read it and then you will understand that it is just asking us to shut up shop. Anyone without any degree could have told us these steps that have been outlined, the man on the street would have been able to write it, not only does it go after social welfare and health (which most will focus on) but it asks for cuts in many infrastructural and developmental areas which could bring us out of the recession. If the government didn't know that these were their options then they really should be stepping down as this programme would eventually close many industries which may very well take us out of this recession. But that is just my reading of this document. and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Taxipete29

Just to clarify it is incorrect to say that those on the Household Benefit Scheme cannot change electricity providers. Dont know where you got the idea you cant.

Mario007

Elmo wrote: »

Read it and then you will understand that it is just asking us to shut up shop. Anyone without any degree could have told us these steps that have been outlined, the man on the street would have been able to write it, not only does it go after social welfare and health (which most will focus on) but it asks for cuts in many infrastructural and developmental areas which could bring us out of the recession. If the government didn't know that these were their options then they really should be stepping down as this programme would eventually close many industries which may very well take us out of this recession. But that is just my reading of this document. and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

yes true everyone is entitled to their opinion. i've only read the summarized version of it and i think it is a very good report. it identifies the ares on which money are being mostly spent on and then actually shows what can be done to save this money without damaging the system too much. also you much take into consideration they could not suggest wage decreases in public sector and so they obviously had to touch on capital investment, school, health and social welfare. You can't think there is a chance of taking 5.3bn out of the economy without touching these areas.

irish_bob

interesting article from todays business post


http://m.thepost.ie/quickPage.html?page=16729&content=15985205&pageNum=-1

Mario007

irish_bob wrote: »

interesting article from todays business post


http://m.thepost.ie/quickPage.html?page=16729&content=15985205&pageNum=-1

very good article, pretty much sums it uo

cyclopath2001

irish_bob wrote: »

interesting article from todays business post
http://m.thepost.ie/quickPage.html?page=16729&content=15985205&pageNum=-1

That's not an article, that's an opinion piece by Dr Ed Walsh of UL. There seems to be no new information, just a predictable (for him) endorsement of the parts of Bord Snip that he likes, with no actual constructive suggestions. For example, what happens to sacked PS workers? Do we export them to Brazil for disposal?

You don't say why you find it interesting?

irish_bob

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

That's not an article, that's an opinion piece by Dr Ed Walsh of UL. There seems to be no new information, just a predictable (for him) endorsement of the parts of Bord Snip that he likes, with no actual constructive suggestions. For example, what happens to sacked PS workers? Do we export them to Brazil for disposal?

You don't say why you find it interesting?

the same thing as happens to sacked private sector workers , they go on the dole untill they regain employment in the private sector , did you think they were entitled to special treatment , oh wait

whats interesting about the article is that shows how irish levels of wellfare are so generous , they exceed wages for many proffessions in eastern europe thus providing no incentive for out of work foreigners to return home , along with that , we are shown that irish public sector wages and staff numbers have increased at a phenonenol level in the past 8 years and now greatly exceed ( wages ) those of other european nations

cyclopath2001

irish_bob wrote: »

the same thing as happens to sacked private sector workers , they go on the dole untill they regain employment in the private sector , did you think they were entitled to special treatment , oh wait

Nope, just wondering what your vision was.

irish_bob wrote: »

whats interesting about the article is that shows how irish levels of wellfare are so generous , they exceed wages for many proffessions in eastern europe thus providing no incentive for out of work foreigners to return home , along with that , we are shown that irish public sector wages and staff numbers have increased at a phenonenol level in the past 8 years and now greatly exceed ( wages ) those of other european nations

Hasn't this all been said before?

I'd be interested to know what Dr Walsh hopes to gain by going to all this trouble to publicise his views?

irish_bob

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Nope, just wondering what your vision was.

Hasn't this all been said before?

I'd be interested to know what Dr Walsh hopes to gain by going to all this trouble to publicise his views?

perhaps he has an interest in seeing his country survive , you know , most of us do