An Bord Snip Nua

Blazer

If Fianna Fail have any brains whatsoever they'll implement the majority of these recommendations from the next budget on.
My reasoning for this is
1. They've nothing to lose now..FF know they're screwed in the next election in 2012.
2. If they do this now and the economy starts to recover they can claim "yes we made hard decisions..but the recession is over and things are getting better" etc. and you know they will be claiming this
If no 2 works out they'll definitely improve their chances of getting re-elected however small they are.

turgon

Sc@recrow wrote: »

If no 2 works out they'll definitely improve their chances of getting re-elected however small they are.

I disagree, the electorate are not that long sighted. If something good is happening they presume its because of the present administration, and similarly for bad situations. Doing whats really "good" for this country rarely wins you any favours.

ParkRunner

irish_bob wrote: »

the 17000 inlcudes what they call natural reduction , retirements etc and besides 17000 sacked surplus to requirement civil servants are a lot cheaper for the state on 11000 in dole a year than double that on a wage

i dont know about that taking into account all the allowances you get on social welfare compared with what's left of a public servants pay slip after the various taxes and levies have cut a large chunk of it away

Blazer

turgon wrote: »

I disagree, the electorate are not that long sighted. If something good is happening they presume its because of the present administration, and similarly for bad situations. Doing whats really "good" for this country rarely wins you any favours.

exactly..they're not long-sighted..
it gives FF 2 years to sort out the country..
If Joe Soap gets a new job over the next two years after being on the dole so long and he's listening to FF saying "they made the right decisions, the economy is up and dole queues are getting smaller" do you honestly think he's going to vote for another party that could come in and screw it all up again?
Very doubtfull.

solice

EF wrote: »

i dont know about that taking into account all the allowances you get on social welfare compared with what's left of a public servants pay slip after the various taxes and levies have cut a large chunk of it away

They cover that by reducing social welfare and the various allowances

luckat

Sc@recrow wrote: »

it gives FF 2 years to sort out the country..

Isn't that a bit like asking the guys who smashed up the sewers to clean up... well, never mind.

irish_bob

Sc@recrow wrote: »

exactly..they're not long-sighted..
it gives FF 2 years to sort out the country..
If Joe Soap gets a new job over the next two years after being on the dole so long and he's listening to FF saying "they made the right decisions, the economy is up and dole queues are getting smaller" do you honestly think he's going to vote for another party that could come in and screw it all up again?
Very doubtfull.

we are a particulary short sighted and petty people , us irish , which is why so many of us support over paid and under worked public servants when they go on strike , people have one criteria and one criteria only when it comes to lending support , is the person on strike related to me , it being a small country , everyone has a relative in the public sector and we like to keep money in the family in this country , its a paticulary irish trait

luckat

One criterion, surely?

Most of our public servants (and I'm not one) are not overpaid.

But if we want to look for savings in too-high salaries, fine! What about setting a top level to Dail and civil service salaries of €80,000 a year, and no perks? That should save a few quid.

whippet

luckat wrote: »

One criterion, surely?

Most of our public servants (and I'm not one) are not overpaid.

But if we want to look for savings in too-high salaries, fine! What about setting a top level to Dail and civil service salaries of €80,000 a year, and no perks? That should save a few quid.

it would be counter productive to cut them to rates like that, you want to encourage capable bright minds to our politics, by paying rates like that you would discourage many potentially excellent politicans from choosing that career.

Again, arguments like this are just deflecting the attention from the real problems and issues.

PullOutMethod

techdiver wrote: »

I agree with you that it should be spread evenly, but as we all know fairness is only an illusion and rarley will the wealthy ever fell the pinch, such it life.

Rarely will the wealthy feel the pinch ?!?!?!
80% of the income tax in this country is paid by 20% of the workers - the high earners.
Up until last year 40% of workers paid NOTHING at all.
In fact they were net beneficiaries of the state by virtue of the fact they received benefits.
Get your facts straight techdiver before you spout communist bullsh*t.
The problems are the spongers at the bottom not at the top.
It feels great that I am paying my taxes for other people to have children.
Thank you very much Fr Sean Healy

whippet

Darragh29 wrote: »

Because I know someone who was looking to speak with him during the funeral and was told by his secretary that he was "on offical business"...

that means nothing, isn't proof of anything apart from the fact that he didn't want to speak to the person in question.

You are reading something in to the fact that a TD didn't want to speak with someone while he was at a funeral .... mmmmhhhhh .. sinister alright:cool:

luckat

PullOutMethod wrote: »

Rarely will the wealthy feel the pinch ?!?!?!
80% of the income tax in this country is paid by 20% of the workers - the high earners.
Up until last year 40% of workers paid NOTHING at all.

Really, PullOut? Citation, please, if you wouldn't mind?

whippet

PullOutMethod wrote: »

80% of the income tax in this country is paid by 20% of the workers - the high earners.

isn't it amazing how union leaders and tabloid media never refer to this fact when beating the mantra about taxing the rich !!!

Actually, apart from wage cuts etc .. the wealthy in the country have all lost a fortune due to the collapse, think about how many of the high earners have / had large property portfolios, investment portfolios with large stakes in banks, pension funds which have taken a nose dive and SME businesses which are struggling to keep their heads above water !!

But the populist opinion will always dictate that there is a divide and the risk taker is alway evil !!!

Socialism really is a dead duck and it's values will not bring this country back to prosperity

Darragh29

whippet wrote: »

that means nothing, isn't proof of anything apart from the fact that he didn't want to speak to the person in question.

You are reading something in to the fact that a TD didn't want to speak with someone while he was at a funeral .... mmmmhhhhh .. sinister alright:cool:

I know it isn't proof of anything, but this individual is smug enough and has the brass neck necessary to milk the system.

Do you in all seriousness genuinely believe that some of them aren't riding the system blind??? They can't be caught, they can claim for whatever they want, no paperwork, documentation or receipts necessary!!!! Do you really think they are all just claiming for what they are entitled to?!?!?!?!?

techdiver

PullOutMethod wrote: »

Rarely will the wealthy feel the pinch ?!?!?!
80% of the income tax in this country is paid by 20% of the workers - the high earners.
Up until last year 40% of workers paid NOTHING at all.
In fact they were net beneficiaries of the state by virtue of the fact they received benefits.
Get your facts straight techdiver before you spout communist bullsh*t.
The problems are the spongers at the bottom not at the top.
It feels great that I am paying my taxes for other people to have children.
Thank you very much Fr Sean Healy

Eh.. back up the truck for a moment there. Perhaps you should do your homework also and look at my previous posts. I am the complete opposite of a communist, I am anti-union, and believe in capitalism and I hate scummers too for that point.

My point was that the wealthy, and by that I mean hyper wealthy will not feel the pain and that is true. I was trying to point out that focusing on these people alone wouldn't solve anything and the structure of the system that we live by dictates that we must have wealthy people to generate wealth and jobs in the economy.

Do you think that everyone paying 40% tax is considered wealthy?? Because I definitely don't!

I have also in previous posts outlined my opposition to universal child benefit especially as it can be a cash cart for "career welfare recipients".

luckat

whippet wrote: »

Actually, apart from wage cuts etc .. the wealthy in the country have all lost a fortune due to the collapse, think about how many of the high earners have / had large property portfolios, investment portfolios with large stakes in banks, pension funds which have taken a nose dive and SME businesses which are struggling to keep their heads above water !!

But the populist opinion will always dictate that there is a divide and the risk taker is alway evil !!!

Mmnot really. But apart from losing the unwise investments which were the cause of the crash, perhaps people with huge salaries should pay their share?

ntlbell

Hellrazer wrote: »

For anyone who thinks the dole should be cut--You try and live on the dole money with a mortgage,kids ,bills to pay etc and then tell me it should be cut.

I guarantee that that attitude would change very very quickly.

This attitude really bugs me.

Social welfare/dole/unemployment assistance whatever it's called these days is not there to enable people to service mortgages, pay for their mobile phone, broadband connection, sky+ subs etc etc etc. the social welfare didn't make your friends get into massive debt to buy a house did they? they didn't cause your friend to loose his job did they? so why do you expect them and the people who are working to pay for such things?

kids or no kids the current payments are HUGE and more than enough to get by with the basics and that's what it's for.

It is a payment to assist you get by with the basics until your secure work.

nothing else.

whippet

Darragh29 wrote: »

Now I know that he put travel expenses and overnight expenses through his TD's expenses for this. Probably around 500 Euro in expenses to attend a funeral that had more to do with his business undertakings with the deceased than anything to do with his constituency work.

Darragh29 wrote:

I know it isn't proof of anything, but this individual is smug enough and has the brass neck necessary to milk the system.

So based on your own dislike of an individual you have decided to make up a story about him and fradulent expsense claims.

Says it all really! :rolleyes:

Dabko

Hillel wrote: »

I've been reading some of the report, and no, I'm not skiving at work.

In my view there's two ways this can go:

1. Everyone, public and private sector, recognizes the scale of the problem and everyone rows in as best they can. While the wage cuts are greater in the private sector, this is offset by substantial increases in output and flexibility in the public sector. There is substantial pain all round, but the country gets back on its feet over 3-5 years.

2. The public sector unions fight to protect their constituents at all costs. A craven government refuses to implement the necessary changes and the situation continues to deteriorate. The debt level becomes unsustainable, we cannot borrow more on the markets and external intervention is required (IMF, whatever). Here, Ireland's credibility is destroyed and it's back to net immigration.

I would appeal to everyone to bring whatever influence they have to bear to ensure that path one is the way we go. I am not concerned for myself, my needs are modest, both in boom and bust. I have taken a (substantial) voluntary pay cut and will do whatever else I can to support my country. I am now looking to the government, and Brian Cowan in particular, to quickly make the changes outlined in the report. (If he hasn't the bottle to do this he should resign, forthwith.)

This is the best post ive read so far by ways of seeing 'the bigger picture'. It really makes so much sense for everyone - public or private, rich or poor, townie or culchie, young or old - to shut up, see the sh1t we are ALL in and deal with it.
A lot of heads need to come out of a lot of holes if we are going to move forward without the IMF nipple feeding us for the next 20 years!

is_that_so

Sc@recrow wrote: »

exactly..they're not long-sighted..
it gives FF 2 years to sort out the country..
If Joe Soap gets a new job over the next two years after being on the dole so long and he's listening to FF saying "they made the right decisions, the economy is up and dole queues are getting smaller" do you honestly think he's going to vote for another party that could come in and screw it all up again?
Very doubtfull.

I think irish_bob's description of us as petty is apt. No more than any other nation we are not long-sighted, however we do have very long memories for slights. FF will not be the next government as we feel slighted by both them adb the Greens. This is pretty much a given at this stage and the recent savaging of the Greens in the locals is a reminder voters do bite back. They will be sent into opposition. It happened in 81 after that shameful 77 bribery, in 82 due to John Bruton's attempt at political suicide and in 97 to Labour on the back of Spring's arrogance.

whippet

luckat wrote: »

Mmnot really. But apart from losing the unwise investments which were the cause of the crash, perhaps people with huge salaries should pay their share?

how was someone putting some of their retirment investments in to the likes of Anglo and Bank of Ireland shares a cause of the crash!!

It really is baffling to hear some of the rubbish that is talked and mentioned, at this stage anyone who was in anyway sucessful over the last decade is portrayed as evil, the cause of the crisis etc ........

Bar stool economics is the lowest of the low !!!

murfie

Dabko wrote: »

A lot of heads need to come out of a lot of holes if we are going to move forward without the IMF nipple feeding us for the next 20 years!

The unions have already said they would strike if the recommendations were put in place. There is no other option but IMF its looking like, thanks to the unions!

whippet

murfie wrote: »

The unions have already said they would strike if the recommendations were put in place. There is no other option but IMF its looking like, thanks to the unions!

there will be little public support for any strikes, with a bit of determination from government and the public they should end pretty quick.

Sparks

turgon wrote: »

It about time everyone dropped their ideals and started being pragmatic.

Actually, they are being pragmatic. The unions are refusing to cooperate because it means they get it in the neck if they do. FF are refusing to target the real culprits in all of this because that would mean targeting their main supporters. The public sector are refusing to take cuts because they know it means they're stuffed. And anyone with a transportable skill has been evaluating emigration destinations for the last few months (or, in my case, since they announced they'd just guarantee the banks instead of nationalising them).

That is pragmatism. What you're calling for in asking folks to not cut off their nose to spite their face is idealism.

is_that_so

What is more important about this document and the impending Commission on Taxation report is what we want to do about it. Once the dust has settled some proper debate needs to happen. Unfortunately that is likely to take place in the public v private slagging match. Even the headline ideas make sense as someone already commented. Job reductions can happen in many different ways. Reviews of welfare levels, especially wrt child benefit are essential. There are too many state agencies, there may even be too many departments.

And maybe we will learn that we are not going to get out of this without some serious surgery and a lot of that will come in public services. Even though we can argue that the PS is productive it comes out of a limited and currently shrinking pot . Once we got used to spending it was very hard to turn off the tap, especially in good times. In my view An Bord Snip is the first step in addressing what should have been done in the good times.

Schmerbatov

murfie wrote: »

The unions have already said they would strike if the recommendations were put in place. There is no other option but IMF its looking like, thanks to the unions!

The IMF.

Terms and conditions apply, apparently.

Who'd have guessed?

jmayo

Akrasia wrote: »

Without trying to be provocative, how many of your hard working friends were gouging during the boom, charging extortionate rates per hour as tradespeople, and taking that money and wasting it on overpriced ego trip houses and 'investments' (money for nothing) How many of those people woild have been sitting around a bar stool moaning about the scroungers on welfare and saying the dole should be cut. The people who demanded everything during the bubble they helped create are now demanding help when their fantasy comes back to reality.

There an awful lot of people playing the victim card here, and all fighting amongst themselves while our fearless leader, Cowen makes statements like "I will sign any cheques required to ensure confidence returns to the banking industry"

We are all being trained on each other, turned against one another while the Bastards in government are pissing away untold billions on bailing out the true criminals in all of this. As long as NAMA and the bank bail outs continue, nobody should be prepared to accept 1 cent in cutbacks. As long as FF refuse to leave and insist on taking their craven salaries and their extended vacations, there should be fierce resistance by everybody to every measure they try to introduce.

Quietly accepting these 'cutbacks' of 5 billion with the disasterous consequences they are going to have for ordinary people, will be the biggest mistake we as a nation can make, because every penny we scrimp to save is just another penny the criminals can steal for themselves before the state is declared bankrupt.

So you would cut off your nose to spite your face.
No cuts and lets continue as it is ?

We are in deep trouble without ever considering how much has and is going into the banks.
Our current spending is much higher than our tax revenues.
This is due to huge inbcreaes in expenditure over years 1997 to 2007 and it was propped up first by real Celtic tiger revenues and then by proeprty bubble related taxes.

Our expenditure is something like 60billion, and rising, whilst on the other side our exchequer returns are something like 37billion and decreasing.

Correct me if I am wrong but did you say pre euro/local election that you would not vote since it acheived nothing ?
If you did not vote, then you have no right to complain about ff leaving since by not voting against them you have given them your implicit approval.
Maybe it wsa other poster that took that stance, mind going through having to listen to union reps spout drivel every day :rolleyes:

luckat

I'm all for everyone sharing the pain, etc - but in reality this plan is almost certainly going to lose me my livelihood, and this will be so for many, many people posting here, quite apart from public servants.

What can we do? Emigrate? To where? At what age?

Het-Field

I think this report is testament to the fact that Biffo, Lenihan, and the deluded wing of the Fianna Fail Party, have been wrong when they have called the measures taken in the last 12 months as "tough". Some of those things in the report are absolutly savage. However, through wanton waste, expenditure and greed, they are absolutly necessary.

The sad thing is, I really dont believe that Cowen etc have the guts to implement the measures. I wouldnt be suprised if they folded to opposition to the report, and just go back to taxing the most socially mobile. The central bank have made it clear that taxation is no longer the answer, and it is enough. FF must cut expendiute in a large way. As is articulated by the report, spending will increase in 2009, and this is to keep the voters "happy".

Budget day could be a slaughterhouse if they choose to implement a variety of the proposed cuts. In the words of Terrell Owens "getcha popcorn ready" !

Dabko

murfie wrote: »

The unions have already said they would strike if the recommendations were put in place. There is no other option but IMF its looking like, thanks to the unions!

The unions are a bunch of trouble making ***** who are only justifiying the fee's their members pay them. They are, as another posters said, lining up to cause hassel so it looks like their jobs are necessary.

O'leary has the right attitude towards unions after all!!