An Bord Snip Nua

Spiritoftheseventies

bottom line is this. If we cant control our spending someone else will do it for us. Some very tough decisions have to be made but not by giving in to excessive pay demands. All that happens is companys will take their business else where people are laid off and our social welfare bill gets bigger.

jimmmy

The Townie wrote: »

The debate surrounding the Bord Snip report is sounding more and more like a bar stool rant. Let's remember that these are proposals and the cuts identified are a wish list that have no basis in the real world of Irish politics.
Lenihan and Cowen can now cook up some 5 year scheme to achieve some of McCarthy's targets and the saps in Cabinet will follow along like the good little boys and girls that they are.
We are feeding into the Government's mind games by failing to point out that McCarthy was given the job of coming up with a list of cuts that a politician, or any form of public servant, could never contemplate.
It's a hatchet job, so that when Lenihan announces that he's going to implement a hugely watered down version of only some of the big ticket items, then he'll proclaim once again that Fianna Fail knows best what's good for this country.
I agree that borrowing 400 million a week to run the country is a stark position for us to be in; but there's an even better reason to reform how we run the country.
It begins with getting rid of the public sector/civil service cutlure that has ruled this country since day one.
Until that changes, and the unions grip on the State is ended, there will be no change in how this country is administered.
The proposals in the Bord Snip report are just an effort to get people thinking that the 'unthinkable' could happen.
It's like showing a drug addict a coffin and suggesting they'll be inside it if they don't stop shooting-up.
Well the 'shooting-up' in this case is the culture of the public sector lifestyle and just like the addict it will be very hard to lure anyone away from the State sponsored gravy train.
It's now or never for this screwed up country of ours.
If our administration was being run with any form of professionalism dealing with this crisis would have started last August, when Brian Cowen was so busy playing golf and going on his caravan holiday.
I don't believe that this Cabinet has the slightest notion of taking the hard decisions and they're not strong enough to face down the bearded gentry in Liberty Hall.
Despite everything McCarthy has outlined this week, we can expect more of the same pathetic leadership from a washed out government in the months to come.

Very good first post

Spiritoftheseventies

yeah some good points there by poster #211 but think govt will come under a lot of pressure under next months. out of the comfort zone and into the pressure zone now.

Nolanger

KerranJast wrote: »

Foreign nationals can't claim the Dole unless they have worked here and payed PRSI.

Technically yes but people on the dole in other EU countries can move to Ireland and continue claiming their dole payment from their home country through an Irish dole office for up to two or three months.

solice

Nolanger wrote: »

Technically yes but people on the dole in other EU countries can move to Ireland and continue claiming their dole payment from their home country through an Irish dole office for up to two or three months.

Do they get the equivalent of their home country dole or do they get the irish dole?

KerranJast

Nolanger wrote: »

Technically yes but people on the dole in other EU countries can move to Ireland and continue claiming their dole payment from their home country through an Irish dole office for up to two or three months.

..which any Irish worker can do in the UK or France or anywhere in the EU if they feel like emmigrating.

Nolanger

solice wrote: »

Do they get the equivalent of their home country dole or do they get the irish dole?

They get their home rate - sometimes very low compared to us but some countries pay high rates. Also, unlike us they usually get paid by docket from the Irish dole office - they then cash this docket in the local post office. In other words - their dole claim and payments are not computerised unlike ours.

JP Liz

Irish society cannot afford An Bord Snip Nua report – Morgan

Sinn Féin Finance Spokesperson Arthur Morgan TD has said Irish society
cannot afford to implement the proposed cuts contained in the report
from An Bord Snip Nua. Deputy Morgan criticised Colm McCarthy for
proposing cuts to the lowest earners in society while earning €1,000 a
week for preparing the report.

Deputy Morgan said:

“For the government and An Bord Snip Nua to publish this report, with
such harmful and detrimental cuts for the most vulnerable sections of
society is an act of gross hypocrisy. Colm McCarthy himself was paid
€35,000 over 8 months to do this report. He has no qualms in taking
€1000 a week to do a report on public savings, while proposing cuts to
those on €204.30 a week. Where is the economic logic there? Where is the
rationale and cost-saving measures that is being espoused by An Bord
Snip in this regard?

“Starving the low and middle income families of the necessary supports
is not viable for economic recovery.

“There are savings to be made in the public sector, but not where he is
suggesting them. Social welfare cannot afford to be cut, Child Benefit
cannot afford be reduced, Household Benefits cannot afford be taxed and
Ireland cannot afford to adopt the recommendations of An Bord Snip Nua.

“The government need to question how, in advance of the European Year
for combating poverty and social exclusion in 2010, Ireland will be
dealing its harshest blow yet to those struggling families that have
lost their incomes as a result of job losses, those families who have to
wait weeks to get any sort of subsistence from the State, the families
that were encouraged to take out exponential mortgages and now have no
means to make payment. For the Irish government that are so keen to
redeem themselves in the eyes of foreign lenders, the European Year will
highlight how the Government has failed these margins of society,
especially if An Bord Snip’s recommendations are to be adopted.

“And, on top of these proposed cutbacks, Eurostat figures today revealed
that Ireland is the second dearest place in Europe to live making life
even more difficult for those on low incomes.

“I especially find the remarks on welfare payments being a disincentive
to labour participation repugnant. While members of the group may be
privileged enough to have a career and an extra job on the side,
ordinary Irish people are struggling to keep their jobs or indeed to
find a job. No-one takes pride in having to stand in a queue for Social
Welfare or having to scrape by on the crumbs afforded to them by
government.”

“Colm McCarthy surely is Doctor Evil in this respect for he has
prescribed more pain and misery for the poor as a form of recovery for
everyone else.”

is_that_so

If ever SF are looking for reasons as to why they don't get more votes or seats they should take out this very fine commentary from Arthur Morgan who really gives the impression he hasn't even read it properly. It is clichéd, completely misleading,populist, despite the fact that Arthur €2K a week and it offers absolutely no alternative solutions.

Spiritoftheseventies

Heard Fr McVerry on News at one talking about what having one's social welfare will mean to some. Eating bread and Jam for days until next social welfare payment, walking into town because they wont be able to afford the bus fare, not having enough to feed the ESB metre. these are just three examples he used. Food for thought i think

KerranJast

bayviewclose wrote: »

Heard Fr McVerry on News at one talking about what having one's social welfare will mean to some. Eating bread and Jam for days until next social welfare payment, walking into town because they wont be able to afford the bus fare, not having enough to feed the ESB metre. these are just three examples he used. Food for thought i think

I know people on the Dole and none of them are that poor. They effectively live like Students comfortably. I suppose if you have a huge mortage, two cars and go on foreign hols with the kids, and are then laid off you could find yourself in trouble but most of that stuff is luxury anyway and should be cut out (only interest should be paid on mortgage if you're on the Dole).

pmacdot

spank_inferno wrote: »

Your figures are pretty much on the nose.
The last figure I saw was from May and that anticipated a 2009 income of just 37 billion and that was after the tax hikes in the emergency budget.

Depending on social welfare costs and the costs of public sector pay raises (and they are getting raises) Spending could be between 58 - 62 billion for the year.

So 2009 defecit = 20 billion at least
2010 deficit = guessing less but in the same region, mabey 15 billion.

And thats excluding the 7billion paid to AIB & BOI
1.5 billion to Anglo-Irish
the Costs of NAMA
the costs of the Government banking garauntee


Save us IMF.... save us!

Where are the raises in the Public Sector? Who is putting out this kind of disinformation, it is very misleading as PS workers have taken an extra cut in take home pay since last March. There have been no increases and will not be any!
Some Private Sector workers have received increases and maybe some like Bord Gais etc but definitely not so for the average worker.
I remember the politicians deferring their "independently" awarded 10% and wonder was that actually their "voluntary 10% pay cut" . Very misleading. Unvouched expenses and legal fees should also be looked at,forget the judges, that,s comparatively chickenfeed compared to fees for Tribunals and Legal Aid etc.I think you will find the figures will add up.
As usual we our attention is directed to certain areas and conscensus thinking clicks in regardless of facts, that's part of the reason we are in this mess. Nobody was allowed think outside the box or spoil the party of easy credit. Too much waffle and no maths!

pmacdot

turgon wrote: »

And to think that I was the one being accused of generalizations. Do you honestly believe the vast majority of the "rich" (for the sake of this debate anyone on the higher tax band) is dodgy?



Thats their fault for acting impulsively, not mine.



Thats their fault for listening to that drivel, not mine.



Perhaps they werent eligible because they could afford it then? Unless you want to argue that social welfare rates are too low.

Have you ever heard of the term "personal responsibility"? I know its not heard that much these days...

It might surprise you that I agree with many of your comments about personal responsibility etc. Do not pigeon -hole people based on where you think they are coming from. I do not subscribe to any particular ideology. I just think it is unfair to blame working people who actually tried to buy their own home. Some made the wrong move at the wrong time-hindsight is a great thing. People have to live somewhere and renting was also expensive remember.
How about the responsibility of financial institutions? Ten time salary responsible lending? Some of the biggest bashers now of the Public Sector are economists of these financial institutions. The "soft-landing" brigade from theses institutions have been sidelined, for the moment anyway, no public appearances.
There has been huge irresponsibility at the top,government included,Bertie got rid of Mc Creevey at the worst time. At least he could maths and he knew true wealth created jobs and he might have also prevented the bubble built on false wealth-a balancing act of growth and control.He had the foresightto set up the Pension Reserve Fund. Some would have it spent on welfare and immigration.
A job-seekers allowance of 200 euro for 18-19 year olds during a boom was a big surprise to me! Now we have genuine unemployment and have to pay for it but many have turned welfare a lifestyle choice too. Social welfare is a blanket term covering many different situations. Genuine situations need help.
My problem it is always the average worker in the middle private or public sector pays the price and the same bloody cycle is repeated again.
I think it is a shame that we are all now pitted against each other.
The real culprits must be laughing at their clever diversionary tactics.
Lets pull together.

pmacdot

turgon wrote: »

And to think that I was the one being accused of generalizations. Do you honestly believe the vast majority of the "rich" (for the sake of this debate anyone on the higher tax band) is dodgy?



Thats their fault for acting impulsively, not mine.



Thats their fault for listening to that drivel, not mine.



Perhaps they werent eligible because they could afford it then? Unless you want to argue that social welfare rates are too low.

Have you ever heard of the term "personal responsibility"? I know its not heard that much these days...

It might surprise you that I agree with many of your comments about personal responsibility etc. Do not pigeon -hole people based on where you think they are coming from. I do not subscribe to any particular ideology. I just think it is unfair to blame working people who actually tried to buy their own home. Some made the wrong move at the wrong time-hindsight is a great thing. People have to live somewhere and renting was also expensive remember.
How about the responsibility of financial institutions? Ten time salary responsible lending? Some of the biggest bashers now of the Public Sector are economists of these financial institutions. The "soft-landing" brigade from theses institutions have been sidelined, for the moment anyway, no public appearances.
There has been huge irresponsibility at the top,government included,Bertie got rid of Mc Creevey at the worst time. At least he could maths and he knew true wealth created jobs and he might have also prevented the bubble built on false wealth-a balancing act of growth and control.He had the foresightto set up the Pension Reserve Fund. Some would have it spent on welfare and immigration.
A job-seekers allowance of 200 euro for 18-19 year olds during a boom was a big surprise to me! Now we have genuine unemployment and have to pay for it but many have turned welfare a lifestyle choice too. Social welfare is a blanket term covering many different situations. Genuine situations need help.
My problem it is always the average worker in the middle private or public sector pays the price and the same bloody cycle is repeated again.
I think it is a shame that we are all now pitted against each other.
The real culprits must be laughing at their clever diversionary tactics.
Lets pull together.

ressem

pmacdot wrote: »

Where are the raises in the Public Sector? Who is putting out this kind of disinformation, it is very misleading as PS workers have taken an extra cut in take home pay since last March. There have been no increases and will not be any!

Has that been decided yet? Last I read was talk of temporary deferrals maybe being acceptable.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0115/1231974456219.html

Union sources suggested that there could be scope for a deal under which regular increments would be deferred for this year and next year on the understanding that when the economy improved, the final long-service increment would be paid immediately on reaching the top of the scale rather than after three years.

The non-payment of increments this year would save the Government €250 million.

...

Two trade unions, the Civil Public and Services Union and the Teachers Union of Ireland, have insisted that pay increases in the public sector due next September must be paid by the Government. However, few union leaders believe privately that this deadline will be met.

The Townie wrote:

We are feeding into the Government's mind games by failing to point out that McCarthy was given the job of coming up with a list of cuts that a politician, or any form of public servant, could never contemplate.

It can't be allowed to be just mindgames.
Change in the Public Sector is restricted by a sense of self-preservation, loyalty to colleagues and knowing that the union/management will hammer anyone that puts their hand up.

Same frequently happens in the private sectors, and all sorts of reward schemes have been invented to try and 'turn workers against each other'/'create shareholder value'/your phrase here.

For example the city and county enterprise boards who according to this report will be merged with enterprise ireland.
Last time I checked, to give a startup grant of 7K max to a one person business, requires the business plan to be approved by the CEB staff, then an approvals board, then the dept of enterprise, then the department of finance.

But without the CEBS facility to give grants with a huge administrative overhead, they provide little more than low cost training, and putting people in touch with advisors.

So the staff will typically over coffee discuss the need for change, but in no way be in a hurry to provoke it. I think the first thing to be cut back in the departmental budgets last year were the sections trying to find internal savings.

pmacdot

The Townie wrote: »

The debate surrounding the Bord Snip report is sounding more and more like a bar stool rant. Let's remember that these are proposals and the cuts identified are a wish list that have no basis in the real world of Irish politics.
Lenihan and Cowen can now cook up some 5 year scheme to achieve some of McCarthy's targets and the saps in Cabinet will follow along like the good little boys and girls that they are.
We are feeding into the Government's mind games by failing to point out that McCarthy was given the job of coming up with a list of cuts that a politician, or any form of public servant, could never contemplate.
It's a hatchet job, so that when Lenihan announces that he's going to implement a hugely watered down version of only some of the big ticket items, then he'll proclaim once again that Fianna Fail knows best what's good for this country.
I agree that borrowing 400 million a week to run the country is a stark position for us to be in; but there's an even better reason to reform how we run the country.
It begins with getting rid of the public sector/civil service cutlure that has ruled this country since day one.
Until that changes, and the unions grip on the State is ended, there will be no change in how this country is administered.
The proposals in the Bord Snip report are just an effort to get people thinking that the 'unthinkable' could happen.
It's like showing a drug addict a coffin and suggesting they'll be inside it if they don't stop shooting-up.
Well the 'shooting-up' in this case is the culture of the public sector lifestyle and just like the addict it will be very hard to lure anyone away from the State sponsored gravy train.
It's now or never for this screwed up country of ours.
If our administration was being run with any form of professionalism dealing with this crisis would have started last August, when Brian Cowen was so busy playing golf and going on his caravan holiday.
I don't believe that this Cabinet has the slightest notion of taking the hard decisions and they're not strong enough to face down the bearded gentry in Liberty Hall.
Despite everything McCarthy has outlined this week, we can expect more of the same pathetic leadership from a washed out government in the months to come.

I thought it was the anti-union brigade who got us into this fine mess? Am I missing something here?
Who encouraged the government to believe that Stamp duty would roll and roll into the coffers...........the Unions??
Who bleated on and on about a "soft landing"...................the Unions????
Who lied about the stability of the Banks........................the Unions????
The only Union grip I saw was to keep their members in line -surely just what the anti-union crowd wanted?
Also Cowen should have made preparations the day he became Finance Minister not just last August,when he ignored us all ,but believed the anti-union brigade that all was well with property, the banks and the economy!!!!
Sure money has been wasted but do not blame ordinary unionised public servants.
These guys need to be honest and admit they built a house of cards, they lied to us all and now they conspire to scapegoat one sector to deflect the blame and excuse themselves from the solution.
It suits the likes of Cowen to pass the solution downwards.
Now the Union leaders will have to work for their money because the peasants are revolting...............ironic is it not union members stirred to action because their own leaders have lost the grip on them.

jimmmy

pmacdot wrote: »

Sure money has been wasted but do not blame ordinary unionised public servants.

Who / what group of over 300,000 people gets the average € 966 per week wage ? Who gets still massively subsidised pensions ? Who works shorter working weeks etc etc etc Why is the govt borrowing over 30 million per DAY. The public service .

pmacdot

jimmmy wrote: »

Who / what group of over 300,000 people gets the average € 966 per week wage ? Who gets still massively subsidised pensions ? Who works shorter working weeks etc etc etc Why is the govt borrowing over 30 million per DAY. The public service .

Where exactly are you getting that ridiculous info....the Indo?
Who borrowed 87 million euro and passed it around banks to hide it?
Who cannot pay it back?
Who is now paying for it?
All money is not spent on Public Service but Services subtle difference!
Who has to be bailed out due to mismanagement of the highest order?
Who gets enormous pensions after all this mismanagement?
Who gets enormous bonuses after all this mismanagement?
Why did you not become a public servant as you think so highly of its perks?
I did speak about the average worker not your multiple pension allowance committeed politicians! Lies damned lies and statistics again and again.

Taxipete29

pmacdot wrote: »

Where exactly are you getting that ridiculous info....the Indo?
Who borrowed 87 million euro and passed it around banks to hide it?
Who cannot pay it back?
Who is now paying for it?
All money is not spent on Public Service but Services subtle difference!
Who has to be bailed out due to mismanagement of the highest order?
Who gets enormous pensions after all this mismanagement?
Who gets enormous bonuses after all this mismanagement?
Why did you not become a public servant as you think so highly of its perks?
I did speak about the average worker not your multiple pension allowance committeed politicians! Lies damned lies and statistics again and again.

The Government is to blame for over inflating the public service wage bill.
Its not the public servants fault they earn what they earn or have those benefits. Again its the Governments. The problem is the Government.

Benchmarking was a disgraceful exercise. The public got not benefit for the increases despite assurances they would be linked to productitvity. We need to benchmark again and if a cut in PS wages is the outcome then they will have to live with it. They wont be arguing from a position of strength if they oppose such a finding considering they accepted it so willingly the first time around.

Hasschu

Unions are only as strong as management and government allow them to be. The rate of unemployment is also an important factor, low unemployment means more strength for the unions. Remember Margaret Thatcher vs the coal miners a sad and sorry tale if ever there was one.
A general strike in Ireland is not likely to last very long in the present circumstances. Family indebtedness, depleted reserves and a large army of unemployed. Also important the public mood which is not likely to be supportive of behaviour which weakens the economy.

pmacdot

Taxipete29 wrote: »

The Government is to blame for over inflating the public service wage bill.
Its not the public servants fault they earn what they earn or have those benefits. Again its the Governments. The problem is the Government.

Benchmarking was a disgraceful exercise. The public got not benefit for the increases despite assurances they would be linked to productitvity. We need to benchmark again and if a cut in PS wages is the outcome then they will have to live with it. They wont be arguing from a position of strength if they oppose such a finding considering they accepted it so willingly the first time around.

Yes the government are responsible for overheating the economy by allowing unregulated lending and happily living off the inflated revenue bonanza.Prices soared so wages rose but near full employment kept most happy.
There was no tomorrow but many people were unhappy with Benchmarking, the lack of transparency, the loss of relativity,the widening gap between lower and higher grades and the productivity aspects for drip fed increases over a period of time always fudged with the next pay agreement
. The most irritating aspect of Benchmarking was that the politicians and other groups got the Buckley Review,then got Benchmarking and then pay agreements as well. They lied about this and said Buckley was their Benchmarking and the plebs were to wait but they got more pay awards for themselves also.
Richard Bruton was a great man to denounce Benchmarking but I never heard him protest about this little anomaly nor did he on point of principle refuse his takings.These higher awards distorted the pay bill and now average paid workers are listening to how overpaid and under worked they are.
If I am not mistaken a TD's salary used to be linked to mid-range civil servant salary but it suited them to break the links for their own enrichment.
Benchmarking 2 did not give average PS workers any great bonanza but remember the 10% pay increase the TDs had to defer last year! There were certain grades given the same privilages as politicians but please do not presume there was a bonanza and in truth increases were linked to productivity and were spread out over many years.
When prices were soaring wages were obviously going to rise to meet inflation.
Too many government agencies doing in some cases "busy work" were set up to keep lackeys happy and this did not start with Fianna Fail, the Rainbow coalition were also responsible for this too. Remember many of these people by-passed all the usual recruitment procedures and earned big salaries over the heads of public sector workers.
It,s all smoke and mirrors with governments and everytime there is a downturn the private sector are encouraged to turn on the public sector. It was the same carry-on in the eighties.
The irony is that there are many former private sector now working in the public sector. Many moved country , or were suddenly unemployed and due to ageism in the business world were not even granted an interview. They did the required entrance exams and were overskilled and less paid in government jobs. Now they at least have some job security, thats the trade off. At least they tried to get work!!!
The soundbite rarely gives the full truth ans stats can be used for any purpose. Its sad that people can be so easily manipulated.
Some public servant out there probably tried to warn of the rainy day and was sidelined for his concern.

pmacdot

Hasschu wrote: »

Unions are only as strong as management and government allow them to be. The rate of unemployment is also an important factor, low unemployment means more strength for the unions. Remember Margaret Thatcher vs the coal miners a sad and sorry tale if ever there was one.
A general strike in Ireland is not likely to last very long in the present circumstances. Family indebtedness, depleted reserves and a large army of unemployed. Also important the public mood which is not likely to be supportive of behaviour which weakens the economy.

Who allowed the recklessness of the banks? Why can nobody even mention the banks now? I never mentioned a general strike but some equity in paying for the problem is perhaps possible. The Unions have not caused this problem.

luckat

I hate to see public and private sector workers turning on each other. We're all working people doing the best we can.

But I can't see why the government's advisors are suggesting this slash-and-slash policy while the government is still doling out billions in corporate welfare to the banks that got us into this mess.

Please! Give the banks to their creditors. Wash our hands of them! Save our money for making jobs and minding the country.

old boy

pmacdot wrote: »

Who allowed the recklessness of the banks? Why can nobody even mention the banks now? I never mentioned a general strike but some equity in paying for the problem is perhaps possible. The Unions have not caused this problem.

agreed but they have to get their heads out of the sand to lead the country to valhalla.

P. Breathnach

luckat wrote: »

... Please! Give the banks to their creditors. Wash our hands of them! Save our money for making jobs and minding the country.

We're in enough trouble as it is. It's not a good idea to make it worse.

oncevotedff

luckat wrote: »

Please! Give the banks to their creditors. Wash our hands of them! Save our money for making jobs and minding the country.

Unfortunately business, i.e. employers, depends on banks for the credit that keeps business afloat and thus people in employment.

This is why the government has been blackmailed into keeping failed banks afloat. If it doesn't the whole economy will implode.

gurramok

pmacdot wrote: »

Who allowed the recklessness of the banks?

A public servant, The Financial Regulator.

Rabble

oncevotedff wrote: »

Unfortunately business, i.e. employers, depends on banks for the credit that keeps business afloat and thus people in employment.

This is why the government has been blackmailed into keeping failed banks afloat. If it doesn't the whole economy will implode.

Banks are like any other private business and should not have been balied out. The 'Market' would have prevailed, people seem to be ignoring the fact that not all banks have failed, successful banks would buy up the failures. OK in Ireland's case that would have meant all the banks ending up in foreign hands but would that be such a bad thing seeing the damage our own people did!

pearcider

Arrgh I hate the dissecting method of debate. Anyways...

Either way it being low relative to other countries is no excuse for a tax raise. And secondly, the low tax rates obviously helped attract FDI's and entrepreneurship during the boom. There were reasons we were the fastest growing economy in the EU you know.

My point is taxation is a key part of the solution and it is much more important the country gets this right as opposed to the cuts right. Our tax base has been destroyed in one year because our system was inherently vulnerable to a recession. This does not happen in stable developed countries. The low corporation tax was helpful in attracting investment but not to the extent you pretend. Let's be honest, the Celtic Tiger happened to Ireland for many, many reasons. We need to shift our stream to income tax and wealth tax, the rates of which are still too low (even after the levies) - and which are vastly more resilient in a recession than the indirect consumption taxes.

However you think this is a 100% good thing, I think it is a predominantly bad thing.

Never said it was a good thing...don't think i don't see the deductions in my payslip as well as you! It is unfortunately a wholly necessary thing, if we're to get our gaff in order. Obviously, if we'd has cooler heads at the turn of the millennium, this pain would be completely unnecessary. But the voices of reason were drowned out in the credit mania that was generally ubiquitous in the anglicized countries at the time led by the high priests of consumption, the arrogant and infallible dismal scientists, the Economists! Guess what, you got it wrong, you led the whole world to the precipice in pursuit of the new paradigm. We need a more stable system - more tax and regulation, not less. And it's going to happen. The rich have shown time and time again that they cannot be trusted to use their wealth wisely.

If you raise taxes more how many more Bonos etc are going to rightly leave the country? How many people will close their businesses (and bearing in mind small businesses are already suffering)? How many more companies will move to Poland?

Are going to "rightly" leave the country? ...jeez the blood boils. :mad: Not going to debate with you regarding the tax exiles - but for the record, I think it's a ****ing scandal in the same league (morally at least)of Ansbacher et al. And if you think we and Poland are playing in the same league - you're wrong. Let them take the low value manufacturing jobs. It's an inevitable and not entirely unwelcome side effect of becoming weealthy. As long as we keep the tech and the pharma, we'll be alright. We must play continue to play to our strenghts - which have not changed - our young, dynamic and professional english speaking workforce, our excellent reputation abroad, our huge global footprint, and our (so far) stable society. Cutbacks threaten these advantages far more than a few measely percent to the taxman. I would reempahsise, we should bring our tax levels to the level of our peers - namely the small progresive european nations. Which brings me to another point; who exactly should Ireland be modeling themselves on, in your opinion?

Regarding your comment on child benefit, social welfare. Some cuts in line with deflation are logical but no more! To actually cut welfare to 1990 level is not only ludicrous and dangerous, it's also deeply immoral. Any cut in welfare at all is sickening when you consider the welfare is being cut to bailout the Quinns, Fitzpatricks and the other ex-millionaires of this wee banana republic of ours. :rolleyes:

A better society? So raise taxes and prolong the recession? Your better society is where the smart kids end up paying 3/5 of what they earn to the state.

Higher taxes didn't cause the recession but you can be damn sure higher taxes will fix it. One bailout at a time, eh? And your smart kids comment is smoke and mirrors...where else will these smart kids go? The UK have already upped their tax on the rich and the States won't be far behind. Those astronomical National debts (well played banking dudes!) will have to be tackled as a matter of urgency once the world economy recovers. So where will the smart kids go? Think about it. If you want to live in the most developed countries in the world which most "smart kids" do, you should ****ing cough up for it. You don't fancy paying your tax? Well then **** off to your tiny island/tin pot dictatorship/whatever and leave the rest of society to work in peace. And we'll take your passport when you're on the way out - cheers. :pac:

The challenge is to regain our good economy by becoming more competitive in terms of labour etc. Raising tax will have the opposite effect.

No it won't. Personal tax rate increases won't affect our competitiveness. But it may keep the country in the game for a bit longer.

Fair is completely subjective. One could argue fair is where people pay the same rate of tax. I think the current setup is unfair, where the higher tax rate is nearly double the lower one.

We clearly have completely different worldviews so I see little point in continuing the debate in this respect.

Did you ever read an economics book?

Did you ever critically read one?? Economics isn't physics, it's more psychology than science depending on infinitely many variables and hazy concepts like confidence and mood - it's not some set in stone dogma and everything has a counter argument.All I'm arguing for is a little balance and a little sense. And I've yet to see an economic prediction that ever turned out right. You couldn't get an economist to agree on anything except their bonus. All you get is well past performance, hedge, hedge, hedge while continually pushing the (for lack of a better phrase) US corporate agenda in the most obvious fashion. They certainly haven't covered themselves in glory by essentially destroying the world economy in a few years.

No but your going to be a helluva lot less likely to start new business ventures and create new employment.

Nonsense, it's about striking a balance. Profits are taxed at 12.5% on businesses here - one of the lowest rates in the OECD. How much more incentive do you need? In reality the wealthy invest abroad, gamble on the stock markets or stash it in tax havens. What serious investor is the least bit interested in the tiny Irish domestic market - which suggested income tax raises will mainly affect. Ireland has the same imperative as we've always had. We must export or die. The tax rate increases are required to repair the damage done to the public finances by the credit and property bubble - made infinitely worse by our inadequate tax regime. What part of this don't you get??

That is pure and utter tripe. How did society allow anyone create anything? Was society there backing O'Leary when he started flying planes? You might enjoy this post btw.

Ridiculous post. If you honestly believe that... :eek:

You dont really grasp the side effects of taxation one bit. Call it a lack of lateral thinking.

Actually, it's my field of expertise.

And as a final note, the last time tax rates were at your target it was the 80's. Is this where you want to be?

Yes...bring back the 80's I say. :cool:

pearcider

Sorry, didn't see gurramoks post,

Your link quotes personal tax rates from 2007. Throw on the levies(10% in some cases) since then and recalculate.

An effective higher rate of 45-47%? Oooooh the pain.:rolleyes: Give the people earning 100k+ 60%. Suggestion to offset the pain; 1) give up running the S Class 2) sell some of your overseas property. 3) stop spoiling your children. Hardly swinging cutbacks are they?

So you want direct taxes to go up to pay for the overpaid(source ESRI) public sector?

No, I want direct tax to go up to stabilize our public finances - end of. I'm not against a reverse benchmarking system perse but the reality is the consistent media attacks on the PS are obviously co ordinated and agenda driven by our arrogant (not to mention completely barmy) kleptocracy. Of whom people are rightly suspicious. These are the very same people who screwed the thing up in the first place! I consistently hear about the so called public sector premium and think so what? The PS are significantly older, far more highly educated, do more difficult and essential jobs and are fully unionzied. Of course they get a good deal! They can demand it. If you think it's so fabulous, by all means, sign up. Last time i checked, it was a noble thing to serve ones country. So don't pretend the PS don't do a valuable job - the last OECD report was basically extremely positive and praiseworthy of the sector. Of course they're pushing integration, integration, integration which is all very well until we wake up in a stalinist state! But i digress...Can a modern country work without regulation, law and order, social services, hospitals, schools and other public services as a pre requiste? Of course it can't. Should we be aspiring toward creating an outstanding public sector? Of course we should.

Pull the other one. Reduce their pay to comparitive levels in the private sector, then put the taxes up to get a good public service Nordic style.

Reduce their pay? Like the Private sector?? Except wait a second...apparently only 9% of private sector folk have cut pay? Don't we still have 15% or so in construction and maybe another 10% in banking and insurance which means the two sectors most directly culpable for the bust have actually done alright out of it! I'd remind you that the PS has already had a 7.5% paycut across the board. Is that justice? And considering I and a number of my colleagues have gotten raises this year, I would suggest they have a ****ing case! :cool:

Oh and while the tax burden goes up, it will depress the economy further. You don't tax your way out of a depression.

And I could just as easily say, you don't cut social services at a time when our vulnerable citizens most need them. What we do with our tax system is irrelevant to the global economy which is in a depression. We are so open we're basically at the mercy of the rest of the world anyway. But our trade is holding up well. Whats really killed us is the property pop and the subsequent collapse of our banks. We don't have a choice. They are the reason for the increased taxes, not the gardas salary nor indeed our admittedly generous social allowances. Let's not lose sight of the facts here.