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An Bord Snip Nua
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Arrgh I hate the dissecting method of debate. Anyways...
My point is taxation is a key part of the solution and it is much more important the country gets this right as opposed to the cuts right. Our tax base has been destroyed in one year because our system was inherently vulnerable to a recession. This does not happen in stable developed countries. The low corporation tax was helpful in attracting investment but not to the extent you pretend. Let's be honest, the Celtic Tiger happened to Ireland for many, many reasons. We need to shift our stream to income tax and wealth tax, the rates of which are still too low (even after the levies) - and which are vastly more resilient in a recession than the indirect consumption taxes.
Never said it was a good thing...don't think i don't see the deductions in my payslip as well as you!
It is unfortunately a wholly necessary thing, if we're to get our gaff in order. Obviously, if we'd has cooler heads at the turn of the millennium, this pain would be completely unnecessary. But the voices of reason were drowned out in the credit mania that was generally ubiquitous in the anglicized countries at the time led by the high priests of consumption, the arrogant and infallible dismal scientists, the Economists! Guess what, you got it wrong, you led the whole world to the precipice in pursuit of the new paradigm. We need a more stable system - more tax and regulation, not less. And it's going to happen. The rich have shown time and time again that they cannot be trusted to use their wealth wisely.
Are going to "rightly" leave the country? ...jeez the blood boils. :mad: Not going to debate with you regarding the tax exiles - but for the record, I think it's a ****ing scandal in the same league (morally at least)of Ansbacher et al. And if you think we and Poland are playing in the same league - you're wrong. Let them take the low value manufacturing jobs. It's an inevitable and not entirely unwelcome side effect of becoming weealthy. As long as we keep the tech and the pharma, we'll be alright. We must play continue to play to our strenghts - which have not changed - our young, dynamic and professional english speaking workforce, our excellent reputation abroad, our huge global footprint, and our (so far) stable society. Cutbacks threaten these advantages far more than a few measely percent to the taxman. I would reempahsise, we should bring our tax levels to the level of our peers - namely the small progresive european nations. Which brings me to another point; who exactly should Ireland be modeling themselves on, in your opinion?
Regarding your comment on child benefit, social welfare. Some cuts in line with deflation are logical but no more! To actually cut welfare to 1990 level is not only ludicrous and dangerous, it's also deeply immoral. Any cut in welfare at all is sickening when you consider the welfare is being cut to bailout the Quinns, Fitzpatricks and the other ex-millionaires of this wee banana republic of ours. :rolleyes:
Higher taxes didn't cause the recession but you can be damn sure higher taxes will fix it. One bailout at a time, eh? And your smart kids comment is smoke and mirrors...where else will these smart kids go? The UK have already upped their tax on the rich and the States won't be far behind. Those astronomical National debts (well played banking dudes!) will have to be tackled as a matter of urgency once the world economy recovers. So where will the smart kids go? Think about it. If you want to live in the most developed countries in the world which most "smart kids" do, you should ****ing cough up for it. You don't fancy paying your tax? Well then **** off to your tiny island/tin pot dictatorship/whatever and leave the rest of society to work in peace. And we'll take your passport when you're on the way out - cheers. :pac:
No it won't. Personal tax rate increases won't affect our competitiveness. But it may keep the country in the game for a bit longer.
We clearly have completely different worldviews so I see little point in continuing the debate in this respect.
Did you ever critically read one?? Economics isn't physics, it's more psychology than science depending on infinitely many variables and hazy concepts like confidence and mood - it's not some set in stone dogma and everything has a counter argument.All I'm arguing for is a little balance and a little sense. And I've yet to see an economic prediction that ever turned out right. You couldn't get an economist to agree on anything except their bonus. All you get is well past performance, hedge, hedge, hedge while continually pushing the (for lack of a better phrase) US corporate agenda in the most obvious fashion. They certainly haven't covered themselves in glory by essentially destroying the world economy in a few years.
Nonsense, it's about striking a balance. Profits are taxed at 12.5% on businesses here - one of the lowest rates in the OECD. How much more incentive do you need? In reality the wealthy invest abroad, gamble on the stock markets or stash it in tax havens. What serious investor is the least bit interested in the tiny Irish domestic market - which suggested income tax raises will mainly affect. Ireland has the same imperative as we've always had. We must export or die. The tax rate increases are required to repair the damage done to the public finances by the credit and property bubble - made infinitely worse by our inadequate tax regime. What part of this don't you get??
Ridiculous post. If you honestly believe that... :eek:
Actually, it's my field of expertise.
Yes...bring back the 80's I say. :cool:
a post nearly half a page long all about increasing tax and not a line about cutting spending0 -
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It may seem like jaded rhetoric, but you cannot tax your way out of a recession. Firstly you cannot alienate the rich, the business class would be inhibited greatly by increased taxes. The business class provide employment. Less employment, more people on the dole and back to square one! Its very basic economics! I for one would like to see a lower "high" tax rate recommended in the September report, l'espoir fait vivre...!
The only sector of the population that emerged relatively unscathed from both the December Budget and the April supplementary budget was the people on social welfare. This report dealt with welfare cuts quite fairly.
I'm no Fianna Fail supporter by any means, but it is unfair to suggest that this report "preys on the most vulnerable people in society" "moral outrage" etc etc! I read both volumes of An Bord Snip Nua's report (I don't have a job this summer, plenty of time on my hands
) and apart from a few aspects of it, I found it to be quite reasonable! Review of Fás, abolition of many pointless departments, the ending of certain "double" welfare payments, standard rate of €136 per child per month child benefit, can anyone really complain about this?
The only problem now is that we must wait the guts of two months before the Dail resumes and the government backs down on every single cut that has been suggested by an Bord Snip, and before the union protest marches recommence...!0 -
Already the farmers are out protesting. will be the first of many. Now coming to the point where what govt promised to all these various groups they wont be able to deliver. put simply the money isn't there.It may seem like jaded rhetoric, but you cannot tax your way out of a recession. Firstly you cannot alienate the rich, the business class would be inhibited greatly by increased taxes. The business class provide employment. Less employment, more people on the dole and back to square one! Its very basic economics! I for one would like to see a lower "high" tax rate recommended in the September report, l'espoir fait vivre...!
The only sector of the population that emerged relatively unscathed from both the December Budget and the April supplementary budget was the people on social welfare. This report dealt with welfare cuts quite fairly.
I'm no Fianna Fail supporter by any means, but it is unfair to suggest that this report "preys on the most vulnerable people in society" "moral outrage" etc etc! I read both volumes of An Bord Snip Nua's report (I don't have a job this summer, plenty of time on my hands) and apart from a few aspects of it, I found it to be quite reasonable! Review of Fás, abolition of many pointless departments, the ending of certain "double" welfare payments, standard rate of €136 per child per month child benefit, can anyone really complain about this?
The only problem now is that we must wait the guts of two months before the Dail resumes and the government backs down on every single cut that has been suggested by an Bord Snip, and before the union protest marches recommence...!0 -
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It may seem like jaded rhetoric, but you cannot tax your way out of a recession. Firstly you cannot alienate the rich, the business class would be inhibited greatly by increased taxes. The business class provide employment. Less employment, more people on the dole and back to square one! Its very basic economics! I for one would like to see a lower "high" tax rate recommended in the September report, l'espoir fait vivre...!
The only sector of the population that emerged relatively unscathed from both the December Budget and the April supplementary budget was the people on social welfare. This report dealt with welfare cuts quite fairly.
I'm no Fianna Fail supporter by any means, but it is unfair to suggest that this report "preys on the most vulnerable people in society" "moral outrage" etc etc! I read both volumes of An Bord Snip Nua's report (I don't have a job this summer, plenty of time on my hands) and apart from a few aspects of it, I found it to be quite reasonable! Review of Fás, abolition of many pointless departments, the ending of certain "double" welfare payments, standard rate of €136 per child per month child benefit, can anyone really complain about this?
The only problem now is that we must wait the guts of two months before the Dail resumes and the government backs down on every single cut that has been suggested by an Bord Snip, and before the union protest marches recommence...!
those on social wellfare are not the ones who will get this economy out of the ditch0 -
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Indeed. But in fairness, the present Revenue authorities have a lot more resources available to them. They operate at a considerably higher level than the 80's and if they want to squeeze the rich, they will. The question is, will the political will be there? Reading the media reaction to the Bord Snip report, I fear not. In reality, we'll have to wait for The Commission on Taxation report to properly judge the Bord Snip Nua one. Now that will be an interesting read...The problem for the government is to figure out how much more it can extract without causing the well-padded to squirrel too much of their money away elsewhere, defraud the Revenue etc ala the 80s.
I expect to be bitterly disappointed considering 1) the make up of the panel ( a veritable who's who of the business class) 2) it's relatively limited terms of reference (their remit does not extend to the CT rate for example)
The great unknown is income tax, tax credit and thresholds and the possible consolidation of the levies. I expect more stable although still inequitable indirect tax increases in the areas of property, water and carbon. I hardly need to say that these taxes have a greater negative impact on the general society and the working poor than the wealthy - just like cuts in services. 0 -
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By the way, those villains on the dole, how are they going to pay the fuel bills next winter? Some of my gas bills were €400 and €500 last winter, and when I rang Bord Gáis they told me that I wasn't using any more units than in previous years.
In the current virtual panic situation many forget that we have already been softened up over a recent period.
The Gas bill which raised Luckat`s eyebrows jumped 18% in one fell swoop last year,as did the Electricity tariff.
Interestingly,we are supposed to disregard any suspected hi-jinks 12 months later when the shiny new semi-kinda-sorta-half privatized Bord Gáis generated electricity begins to fizz and spark at a "Whopping" 15% "saving" on bad ol ESB rates...
Let me see.....a 15% discount on a unit of consumption which has recently increased by 20% appears to my feeble mind to represent a 5% INCREASE if taken over what should be the comparator rate.....
However since I most certainly am not an economist I am fully ready to be corrected and replaced in my box.
There is also a quite worrying aspect to how those "Villans" on The Dole will have to rein in their expectations.
There is little doubt but that the MAJORITY of DSFA benefit recipients ARE legitimately recieving their due from what is a Pay Related Social INSURANCE scheme.
Most people I interact with appear to have completely lost sight of that defining aspect of the "Social Welfare" timebomb.
"The Premiums of the Many go to Pay the Claims of the Few"
Modern Ireland,and to an extent the UK are possibly the prime examples of how this simple base ethic was thrown over a wall and we launched off on a wild experimental Social Fling that now sees us all threshing about in the ****.
Perhaps it`s no bad thing that somebody on-the-dole will now have to watch that immersion or castigate a shower-hungry teenager ?
Equally we may actively have to start looking at the somewhat les extravagant daily lifestyles of those frugal,boring ol Germans,Belgians and Dutch who go to bed early yet have fewer feral groups of wild verbally incontinent youthful progeny wandering abroad in the wee small hours searching for stuff to destroy or steal ?
My Irish born,long time German resident friends can tell me to the nearest 500cc their weekly water usage...both potable and waste....largely because they PAY for it.
They are acutely aware of every "Green" incentive provided by their Local Regional and City Administration because it enables them to REDUCE the cost of running their Apartment.
They are actively engaged in the Management Committee of their complex because thay want to ensure that they collectively don`t miss out on any such incentives which may arrive along.
They are currently child-less by choice having decided to forgo the pleasure in typical frigid teutonic manner in order to get a firm sustainable family base in place FIRST before bringing another being into the world.
Having largely established that solid base,they now appear to have an entitlement to a substantial system of Child and Family centred benefits designed to raise the German birth rate.
However it is their attitude to my Car that perhaps illustrates best where our cultures differ.....They express no surprise or concern that I drive a 1992 Audi with 164,000 Miles up and fully expect it to serve me for many more years.
This is in stark contrast to many of my native pals for whom the 92 plate is a source of great mirth and even speculation as to whether it indicates my miserable-sod status or whether I really am on hard times.
It appears to me that part of the Post-McCarthyite era in Ireland will involve an entire Social Class having to re-evaluate just what aspects of their life and lifestyles will HAVE to go.
For those in employment,income cuts have already begun that process and herein lies the nub of the problem.
Those in current employment have always been more amenable to management of their financial affairs whether it be mistaken or not.
The State`s major problem now lies in convincing a significant number of people who are totally divorced from the reality of income vs expenditure budgeting that they will have to drop back a notch.
It is a moot point as to whether a largely bankrupt State can even consider funding such items as Mobile Telephone Allowances,Baby Buggies and Equipment,Free Travel Passes,Various Substance Abuse Councilling programmes to a lage group who have NEVER contributed whilst coincidentally denying urgent medical care to people who may have full Social Welfare contributions paid up over a long productive working life...THAT situation,more than anything is what could eventually break the Irish Camel`s back in a very spectacular manner indeed.
Sadly,thumbing through the Expenditure Review Committee`s recommendations I cannot find much evidence of the Committee`s understanding of the entire business of how skewed our Society has become after decades of the Social Support culture and that lack of evidence IS worrying when one considers the supposed infallibility of the McCarthy Committee`s findings..... Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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pearcider wrote:What Poland don't have - they don't speak English
Wrong. I work with Polish people on a daily basis and their English is excellent. English is taught to the kids on the curriculum from a young age. A bit like the Dutch.
Have you ever met a Polish person who does not speak English? They are rare.An effective higher rate of 45-47%? Oooooh the pain.:rolleyes: Give the people earning 100k+ 60%. Suggestion to offset the pain; 1) give up running the S Class 2) sell some of your overseas property. 3) stop spoiling your children. Hardly swinging cutbacks are they?
No, I want direct tax to go up to stabilize our public finances - end of. I'm not against a reverse benchmarking system perse but the reality is the consistent media attacks on the PS are obviously co ordinated and agenda driven by our arrogant (not to mention completely barmy) kleptocracy. Of whom people are rightly suspicious. These are the very same people who screwed the thing up in the first place! I consistently hear about the so called public sector premium and think so what? The PS are significantly older, far more highly educated, do more difficult and essential jobs and are fully unionzied. Of course they get a good deal! They can demand it. If you think it's so fabulous, by all means, sign up. Last time i checked, it was a noble thing to serve ones country. So don't pretend the PS don't do a valuable job - the last OECD report was basically extremely positive and praiseworthy of the sector. Of course they're pushing integration, integration, integration which is all very well until we wake up in a stalinist state! But i digress...Can a modern country work without regulation, law and order, social services, hospitals, schools and other public services as a pre requiste? Of course it can't. Should we be aspiring toward creating an outstanding public sector? Of course we should.
Reduce their pay? Like the Private sector?? Except wait a second...apparently only 9% of private sector folk have cut pay? Don't we still have 15% or so in construction and maybe another 10% in banking and insurance which means the two sectors most directly culpable for the bust have actually done alright out of it! I'd remind you that the PS has already had a 7.5% paycut across the board. Is that justice? And considering I and a number of my colleagues have gotten raises this year, I would suggest they have a ****ing case! :cool:
And I could just as easily say, you don't cut social services at a time when our vulnerable citizens most need them. What we do with our tax system is irrelevant to the global economy which is in a depression. We are so open we're basically at the mercy of the rest of the world anyway. But our trade is holding up well. Whats really killed us is the property pop and the subsequent collapse of our banks. We don't have a choice. They are the reason for the increased taxes, not the gardas salary nor indeed our admittedly generous social allowances. Let's not lose sight of the facts here.
To sum up, you do want the entire workforce to pay for the overpaid public service. That 7.5% 'paycut' is a pension levy, you get it back.
Fyi, it was found in the last ESRI report that the lower echelons of the PS was overpaid by 30% when compared to equivalent positions and qualifications/experience in the private sector.
I know where you want this country to go, that is the 80s. In case you are too young to remember, taxes went sky high to pay for an overpaid public service back then.
What happened was that economic activity was stifled and the country nearly went bankrupt servicing a high national debt. A certain McCarthy report came out then and the slashing began aka Tallaght Strategy.
It took about 10 years for them to make the proper public service cuts to save the country, will we be waiting 10 years again?0 -
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