Legal Highs

g5fd6ow0hseima

Asmodean wrote: »

Yeah it's fairly insulting to the country to be able to get away with selling this stuff by offering up an almost childlike excuse. As you said, if they are going to get away with it they will continue to sell as the buyers will always be there. The owness is on the Govt to step up to the plate. It's a terrible shame that the law is so muddy regarding these new compunds and substances. People tend to go with the notion that 'If it isn't illegal sure it has to be safe.'

Funny though,

The main aspect of this whole fiasco is that its the ineptness of the government which has shown up most!

Just when things couldnt have gotten any worse for the government.....

darkmaster2

Hauk wrote: »

I agree. The head shops are as much to blame for not even trying to work with Govt to seek approval for these substances. It was only a matter of time before the loop hole would come under critiscism.

Work with Govt? Governments don`t want people to get high unless its with alcohol or nicotine. Anyway if Cannabis,mdma,lsd are still illegal despite being proven relatively safe, then there is no chance in hell of anything new and not properly researched being made legal.

People are turning to these new and possibly dangerous chemicals such as mephedrone because of prohibition.

genericguy

i can see them now banning nutmeg, air freshener, deodorant... and banana skins just in case.

"we would urge the public to continue smoking harmless tobacco, and to use alcohol, which is not responsible for any A&E admissions at all, and because of which no families have ever been destroyed"

zig

Odysseus wrote: »

I work in the addiction area; I am surprised at the amount of new head shops I have seen in the past year, especially the amount of new ones outside Dublin. I have only looked at a few of them, I sure if I checked out all the stuff being sold and the ingredients they contain I might not be fully happy with them.

I also aware that some of my colleagues have treated people for various problems with some of the stuff they sell. However, I’m sure someone will correct me on this, I'm guessing that headshops have been open in Ireland for at least 4 years. During that time I have never treated anyone for addiction problems or associated psychological harm for any substance from a headshop.

I don't claim to have the answers, and I'm sure that some people have encountered either addiction problems or psychological problems associated to these substances. However, prohibition is not going to stop any of those problems.

I taught many students over the years, and I always recommend one book to start with called "Living with Drugs". The title says it all really, people have been using some form of substance since we moved out of caves and it will never stop.

I'm not saying that everybody should do drugs, but people will make choices. Making them a criminal because of it has never worked. Certain drugs can exacerbate certain psychological conditions, and other have quite a strong addictive potential. Banning them hasn't stopped people from using them. Instead of this constant "war" on drugs, why not put some of that time, money and energy into helping those for whom drugs become a problem, and leave those who appear to have the ability to use certain drugs with a negative impact on their life alone

excellent post.

Hauk

darkmaster2 wrote: »

Work with Govt? Governments don`t want people to get high unless its with alcohol or nicotine. Anyway if Cannabis,mdma,lsd are still illegal despite being proven relatively safe, then there is no chance in hell of anything new and not properly researched being made legal.

People are turning to these new and possibly dangerous chemicals such as mephedrone because of prohibition.

Yes, I agree with what you have said, and I admitted I was wrong.

strobe

Asmodean wrote: »

It's a terrible shame that the law is so muddy regarding these new compunds and substances. People tend to go with the notion that 'If it isn't illegal sure it has to be safe.'

There's nothing muddy about the law, there's no "loophole", these things are
legal because they've never been made illegal in the same way as everything legal that exists is legal.

Do people really think 'If it isn't illegal sure it has to be safe'? Do people believe alcohol and tobacco are safe? Do they believe that things like mephedrone are safe? Or are they just willing to take the risk?

poodles

Parents need to step up and make their kids to pledge at confirmation that they won't take mephedrone untill the age of 18

electrogrimey

poodles wrote: »

Parents need to step up and make their kids to pledge at confirmation that they won't take mephedrone untill the age of 18

Is that a joke? Or are you just a troll?

zig

electrogrimey wrote: »

Is that a joke? Or are you just a troll?

oh no

Sea Sharp

I suppose they'll rush out and ban alcohol & tobacco as well.

The double standards are pure wreckin' my buzz lioke.

poodles

Odysseus wrote: »

I'm not saying that everybody should do drugs, but people will make choices. Making them a criminal because of it has never worked. Certain drugs can exacerbate certain psychological conditions, and other have quite a strong addictive potential. Banning them hasn't stopped people from using them. Instead of this constant "war" on drugs, why not put some of that time, money and energy into helping those for whom drugs become a problem, and leave those who appear to have the ability to use certain drugs with a negative impact on their life alone

Well said

Korvanica

anyone else see the news about the head shops? with people being concerned about them?

F**K off its all legal!
People dont have a problem wit alcohol, but they do have problems with other legal ways of getting f**ked up...

never heard such crap in my life

EDIT: the gf was sayin that she heard someone call into the radio earlier saying that her sons friend, took something he got in a head shop while he was out one night and ended up trying to eat glass bottles... his friends had to make him sick to get the glass out of him or something ( i didnt get the full story)...... Hmmmm I wonder what the chances are that he was drunk off his head.

kraggy

Korvanica wrote: »

anyone else see the news about the head shops? with people being concerned about them?

F**K off its all legal!
People dont have a problem wit alcohol, but they do have problems with other legal ways of getting f**ked up...

never heard such crap in my life

Lame, uninformed argument there.

It's only legal because it hasn't come under the scrutiny of the authorities. Once it has, it will be made illegal.

The tired, overused argument vis a vis alcohol/cigarettes may be applicable in the struggle to get weed legalised/decriminalised, but there are countless accounts on the internet about how bad mephodrone is. And these accounts are from people who have had bad experiences, not from anti-drug lobbyists or governments.

There is an an obscene amount of crap being sold in them head shops and nobody, not even the seller, knows exactly what they consist of.

Normal pills are much safer and cleaner from what I can see.

marko91

its all LEGAL, alchohol and tobacco is legal and we all know storys about them both with family and friends!...who whats the big deal about thes legal drugs? of course they will have effects on you if u take them everyday like alchohol and tobacco...if you make legal drugs illegal then make alchohol and tobacco illegal too!

marko91

Asmodean wrote: »

i don't understand why anyone would even want to consider shoving these things in their bodies.

i dont undertand why anyone would want to consider drinkin alot of alchohol on a night out either:rolleyes:

starbelgrade

Asmodean wrote: »

i don't understand why anyone would even want to consider shoving these things in their bodies.

I don't think they sell suppositories.

Vertigo100

kraggy wrote: »

Lame, uninformed argument there.

It's only legal because it hasn't come under the scrutiny of the authorities. Once it has, it will be made illegal.

The tired, overused argument vis a vis alcohol/cigarettes may be applicable in the struggle to get weed legalised/decriminalised, but there are countless accounts on the internet about how bad mephodrone is. And these accounts are from people who have had bad experiences, not from anti-drug lobbyists or governments.

There is an an obscene amount of crap being sold in them head shops and nobody, not even the seller, knows exactly what they consist of.

Normal pills are much safer and cleaner from what I can see.

That's all well and saying that normal pills are safer and cleaner but when was the last time that you had s pill that actuly had MDMA in it? All that's on the streets these days are pips and mcpp pills.

The odd time you might come across a 2-c pill but that's nothing like MDMA and not for everyone. For this reason people are turning to mephedrone and there are plenty of stories about vasoconstriction and other problems but these are very rare compared to the number of people that are now taking it. My friends and I have tried mephedrone bought online not from head shops because it's cheaper and I know it's mephedrone and not cut with everything else under the sun from caffine to creatine.

The more concerning thing about mephedrone is the fact we don't know the long term effects but if some highly intelligent people over on www.bluelight.ru say that it thickens your heart valves everytime you take it I tend to believe them. They have also said that it's only best guess chemistry they are going on so I guess we will have to wait a few years to see if people start dropping dead from heart attacks all over the uk and Ireland cos the drug is everywhere in the uk and it's getting big here.

I for one will continue to take it in small doses as I have had none of the blue limbs or other immediate side effects. Keep the doses small and space out the time between sessions and you might just be ok. Bluelight is a harm reduction site by the way and anyone who take drugs legal or otherwise should check it out there is a wealth of info on there.

Lia_lia

I'm so glad I grew out of my drug phase when I was 19.

Elevator

last nights show was the greatest waste of our television licence monies since celebrity farm and other such shows put out on our national broadcaster, had to endure more air time given to people who don't have a clue and who are obviously letting their own personal feelings run away with themselves (some due to grief and that is fair enough but others slating things they don't know the first thing about is madness)

for someone to claim "i just want to see them banned" is a knee jerk reaction from someone who is just toeing the party political line and couldn't care less about the damage they are doing to people by making the decisions they make

crack head goes mad on "party pills" (DUM DUM DUM!!)

we also learned that cocaine injecting fiends who are now supposedly injecting legal alternatives are now acting strange!?! wtf is going on here, were these people as normal as the rest of us b4 they started to stay within the bounderies of the law??

I think if the government is stupid enough to think that anything will change with an all out ban because

1. they have not been tested, or
2. they're available 24 hours a day in a small number of places limited areas in the capital only afaik, or
3. one guy lost his life 3/4 years ago while drunk and on illegal substances but also consumed a small amount of mushrooms,

well then there are many many many many documented cases from as far back as you want to look of people dying directly from smoking and drinking , destroying families and lives due to long term suffering or sudden death, accidents caused due to negligence while drunk, violent behaviour, drunken suicides, etc etc etc (in ireland 6,500 people die each year from smoking alone ffs)

put that in your pipe and smoke it mr minister and now go away and stop being the nanny that you so clearly like to portray and leave us to make our own (for the most part) well informed decisions on what we do and when we wanna do it. ye rape us with your stealth taxes, we have little enough free time from one month to the next and ya wanna try push us once more. i wanna go f-ing mad at this government!!

also all the talk about the wonderful decisions our neighbouring britannia have been making lately made me lol so much, three words for ya ; Prof David Nutt

that was a serious mistake right there and they wouldn't even back down when they knew they were wrong!! of course we will follow them over the cliff just cos they jumped

skelliser

anyone who snorts baths salts deserves to live with the conseqeunces.
My tax dollars shouldnt have to go to treat this idiots.
I wouldnt mind if my taxes went on presenting said idiots with darwin awards.
why stop there, sure why not start drinking domestos ffs!

TheGod

skelliser wrote: »

anyone who snorts baths salts deserves to live with the conseqeunces.
My tax dollars shouldnt have to go to treat this idiots.
I wouldnt mind if my taxes went on presenting said idiots with darwin awards.
why stop there, sure why not start drinking domestos ffs!

Seeing as the doctor on liveline said he has seen a dozen or so cases of people being brought into A&E in the last 5 years these things have been around I doubt much of your tax money is being wasted.

How about the billions being wasted to treat idiots who drink too much week in week out? Do you reckon your tax dollars should go towards that?

skelliser

So you want to add to that bill by allowing people to snort bath salts?!

alcohol is for human consumption, yes it leads to injury, death treatment etc. when abused in high doses. And no, I dont think i should have to pay for people who cant handle there drink either. But this is the real world!

Now, bath salts on the other hand are not fit for human consumption, its clearly marked on the package ffs!

And that A&E Doctor feared for that one persons future mental health, how much will that cost to treat over the curse of that persons life?

RobbieTheRobber

skelliser wrote: »

So you want to add to that bill by allowing people to snort bath salts?!

alcohol is for human consumption, yes it leads to injury, death treatment etc. when abused in high doses. And no, I dont think i should have to pay for people who cant handle there drink either. But this is the real world!

Now, bath salts on the other hand are not fit for human consumption, its clearly marked on the package ffs!

But if i make a packet of bath salts and put on the packet fit for human consumption is that ok?

Alcohol is toxic to humans hence the reaction we have to it (being drunk) so just because its marketed as fit for human consumption does not make it so!

skelliser

alcohol is toxic to humans when it is abused

But if i make a packet of bath salts and put on the packet fit for human consumption is that ok?

When you show me scientific data/medical trials that bath salts are fit for human consumption then i will have no problem, until then you may aswell drink domestos, mr sheen or whatever you want with your bath salts

RobbieTheRobber

skelliser wrote: »

alcohol is toxic to humans when it is abused

So if I paraphrase you, your sentence = Alcohol is toxic to irish people and should be banned in Ireland

skelliser wrote: »

When you show me scientific data/medical trials that bath salts are fit for human consumption then i will have no problem, until then you may aswell drink domestos, mr sheen or whatever you want with your bath salts

Cigarettes are sold legally and are known to be bad what is your excuse for them?

AnonoBoy

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Cigarettes are sold legally and are known to be bad what is your excuse for them?

They make you look cool?

RobbieTheRobber

AnonoBoy wrote: »

They make you look cool?

And smokers get the wimmins!

skelliser

skelliser wrote: »

So you want to add to that bill by allowing people to snort bath salts?!

Look, they're not actually bath salts or plant food. They just say that on the packet so that they don't have to go through the normal rigourous testing that all medications do.

Your comparison to Mr. Sheen etc. proves how litlle you know.

g5fd6ow0hseima

rubadub wrote: »

I have seen his brothers facebook page which as a petition to close down "headshops". I just had a glance and again could find no actual idea on how to do this, i.e. how do you legally describe a "head shop", if it has drug paraphernalia then most supermarkets fall under that definition. I did not want to read much as they hypocrisy of stuff like this really bugs me a lot, he certainly did not consider alcohol to be a legal high along with the others -utter hypocritical madness. A few people on his page did question how irrational the whole thing was, with pathetic responses. People are tiptoeing around the elephant in the room of how illogical & stupid the campaign is for fear of offending -it really disgusts me since if some grieving mother had asked for alcohol to be banned due son dying due to it they would not be given the time of day.

I contributed quite a bit to the group for a good hour or so, just counter-acting the totally naive opinions of posters such as 'ban them all', 'they're no good, we need to protect our kids' etc.... The mod banned me and a few others who were actually debating the whole thing in a proper manner.... Its a joke really, but its self righteous idiots like him who are listened to in this country....

g5fd6ow0hseima

Deleted User wrote: »

Look, they're not actually bath salts or plant food. They just say that on the packet so that they don't have to go through the normal rigourous testing that all medications do.

Your comparison to Mr. Sheen etc. proves how litlle you know.

But its people like that, totally uninformed and clueless, who we are dealing with.

Its a tough task....

skelliser

hang on now, your putting words in my mouth, when alcohol is abused, like any drug, it is toxic to the human body, in small doses its fine.

On the other hand bath salts are an unknown entity.

I agree re: fags and a start is being made, Cigarrettes are banned in public places. Plus they make my look cool.

The only argrument you have made and the jest of the defense of head shops is "because the A&E'S are full of drunkards, who have abused alcohol, at the weekend i therefore should be allowed to snort bath salts and anything else i see fit and the rest of society be damned"
In other words "if others can do this i should be allowed do want i want"

mloc

Deleted User wrote: »

Look, they're not actually bath salts or plant food. They just say that on the packet so that they don't have to go through the normal rigourous testing that all medications do.

A very good point. The name of the product (bath salts etc.) is totally arbitrary. They have no function as bath salts, its just a random name put on them to get around legislation.

skelliser

Deleted User wrote: »

Look, they're not actually bath salts or plant food.

What are they then? if there not used as bath salts

RobbieTheRobber

skelliser wrote: »

hang on now, your putting words in my mouth, when alcohol is abused, like any drug, it is toxic to the human body, in small doses its fine.

On the other hand bath salts are an unknown entity.

I agree re: fags and a start is being made, Cigarrettes are banned in public places. Plus they make my look cool.

The only argrument you have made and the jest of the defense of head shops is "because the A&E'S are full of drunkards, who have abused alcohol, at the weekend i therefore should be allowed to snort bath salts and anything else i see fit and the rest of society be damned"
In other words "if others can do this i should be allowed do want i want"

Yes Im an adult I should be allowed decide what i do to my body, just like the government allows me to consume alcohol and smoke cigarettes. Despite knowing for the past 30 years how bad it is.

Anyway its not just large does of alcohol, the chemical that makes alochol is toxic to humans, not just in large doses not just in small doses but in all doses.

Here comes the science

We can find alcohols throughout our daily lives. An alcohol is an organic chemical compound containing the -OH group and there are thousands of alcohols in this series of related chemical compounds. Alcohols are all toxic to humans and they are used in industry and home for the manufacture of other compounds (MTBE gasoline additives, paints, food additives, thickeners), as automotive antifreeze (methyl alcohol and ethylene glycol), as a component of cleaners (isopropanol), cosmetics (glycerol), and other household items, as fuels (ethanol) and as a component of beverages: beer, wine, spirits, and champagne.

http://www.chemcases.com/alcohol/alc-01.htm

RobbieTheRobber

skelliser wrote: »

What are they then? if there not used as bath salts

A mood enhancer which can be snorted!

skelliser

mloc wrote: »

A very good point. The name of the product (bath salts etc.) is totally arbitrary. They have no function as bath salts, its just a random name put on them to get around legislation.

But one of the users on primetime, some young lad said they were bath salts, as in you put them in the bath to have a relaxing bath

lisar201

der just as bad as illegal stuff and hav the same side effects if not worse

RobbieTheRobber

skelliser wrote: »

But one of the users on primetime, some young lad said they were bath salts, as in you put them in the bath to have a relaxing bath

And if i put the word rubbing in front of alcohol would it be ok to sell it to a minor?

Pace2008

skelliser wrote: »

What are they then? if there not used as bath salts

They're designer drugs specifically engineered to mimic the pharmacological action of popular illegal psychoactives while neatly sidestepping existing laws against controlled substances.

Can we stop debating semantics now or are you going to continue trolling?

RobbieTheRobber

lisar201 wrote: »

der just as bad as illegal stuff and hav the same side effects if not worse

Indeed!

very insightful.

skelliser

I dunno lads, im pretty open and liberal when it comes to drugs, most of my friends take various drugs etc. and iv no problem, everything in moderation and all that, its the personal responsibility that irkes me.

To use the excuse that because we spend billions on treating drink related stuff as an excuse to take whatever you want is nonsense imo, your not gonna win the debate with that one.
Gotta look for another angle

Pye

In the same way poppers (amyl nitrate) are called 'room odourisers' or some BS.

mloc

skelliser wrote: »

To use the excuse that because we spend billions on treating drink related stuff as an excuse to take whatever you want is nonsense imo, your not gonna win the debate with that one.
Gotta look for another angle

Here's another angle;

Alcohol and these substances, they are both legal. Alcohol has an exponentially higher cost to the taxpayer than the "legal highs" do, or nearly any other intoxicant.

Would the logical thing not be to ban alcohol then?

skelliser

mloc wrote: »

Alcohol and these substances, they are both legal. Alcohol has an exponentially higher cost to the taxpayer than the "legal highs" do, or nearly any other intoxicant.

your missing, when abused alcohol...

So lets say they make bath salts proper legal like, what happens when people in great numbers start abusing them.
Are we supposed to pick up the tab because we already spend loads on drink.

Your missing my point about personal responsibility.

RobbieTheRobber

skelliser wrote: »

your missing, when abused alcohol...

So lets say they make bath salts proper legal like, what happens when people in great numbers start abusing them.

Your missing my point about personal responsibility.

I dont have personal responsibility if the government ban it I have a nanny telling me what bad things i can take and what bad things i cant.

Surely as an adult i can decide what i put in my body!

skelliser

yes but as an adult you also have responsibility to your fellow man.

ScumLord

skelliser wrote: »

your missing, when abused alcohol...

So lets say they make bath salts proper legal like, what happens when people in great numbers start abusing them.

Your missing my point about personal responsibility.

Alcohol is much more open to abuse though. It's side effects could also be seen as also being much worse than most other drug. You need to ingest more of it to get any effects which puts your system under more strain than with small dose drugs.

Pye

skelliser wrote: »

yes but as an adult you also have responsibility to your fellow man.

This is opinion and not necessarily shared.

RobbieTheRobber

skelliser wrote: »

yes but as an adult you also have responsibility to your fellow man.

So again ban the booze if we are all responsible.

These substances are new and alcohol is part of an old industry that is the only difference I can see between the two.

Both are toxic, both when taken in large doses can lead to individuals not being of sound mind.

Im really struggling to see any difference between them.

If I take enough of these bath salts that I dont get "high" then i preume they are as dangerous to me as drinking in moderation ie one pint a day.

So please help me see the difference between one mood altering substance and the other.

skelliser

Pye wrote: »

This is opinion and not necessarily shared.

So you dont want to participate in society!