Anything better for Ireland

Somethingmore

I am writing this post as I have spent so much of my time reading other posts who either complain about the government its policies and the people in charge or the inability of the Irish people to stand up and be counted as their civil liberties are being eroded away it's people robbed. I offer this post as an invite for anyone who can channel their anger (and theres' lots of that going around) and actually make something of it.

There are many challenges which face this country today, this current recession is not the root of the problem it is merely a by-product of the much larger issues we must tackle together as a people. Our country needs change and not just the man at the top, and not the blanket cost cuts from "an board snip".

There are much deeper issues which have led us to this point. I do not have any answers, I only have questions. The only thing I know for sure it there has to be something better than this.

• If we remove FF from its position who/what do we put in its place ?

I believe being angry at the current government is not enough we need a plan.

• How do we create policies which are both productive and also have the interests of the irish people at their forefront ?

Curent corporate policy which controls this government is not in the interests of its PEOPLE.

• How do we work together today to ensure protection of those most vulnerable?

Todays cuts are only the start there will be more, if you were not directly or indirectly affected by today's cuts, I guarantee in 12 months time they will affect you.

Again I invite everyone/anyone to contribute here. I am starting to feel like I am on my own. Prove me wrong.

Sand

I think we need to found a new political party. Whose with me?

Permabear

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Sand

Sand wrote: »

I think we need to found a new political party. Whose with me?

If the name and logo is catchy, count me in!

Permabear

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mickoneill30

donegalfella wrote: »

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Excellently put. I'm fed up of hearing of the "vulnerable". No matter what the government wants to cut it's affecting the vulnerable. Everyones "vulnerable" if you look at it from the right perspective. With the size of cuts the goverment needs to make it's going to affect every single person in the country.
Yesterdays 6PM RTE news changed that mantra a bit now. Now everything is an "attack on insert the group that's most likely to cause emotion here"

Regarding the OPs post I think that the main problem with FF is that they seem to twist in the wind with their policies. They announce something, the opposition or unions pop their heads up, the media reports on the "vulnerable" and FF change their policy. Who exactly are the vulnerable? OAPs, single parents, mortgage holders, the unemployed, single income familys, people who need health care, couple in jobs that are just about earning enough to live etc. etc. That's a pretty huge percentage of the population. I've no idea what the numbers of those people are but I'd say we'd be approaching the majority of people in the country there. What's the solution?

Tax the rich? Sure. What counts as rich? And people who say this normally forget (or don't know) that if you taxed every single rich person at 100% (above €100,000) you'd still need to make huge cuts in the economy and, suprise, suprise, affect the vulnerable. Of course then the super rich would leave and end up paying less tax. 47% of the states income tax already comes from 6% of the people (the rich). It's easy and populist for oppostion and unions to say lets squeeze them some more.

I'd have a lot more respect if FF had a goal and went for it properly. No matter what they do there's going to be a lot of pain for most people in the country. FF seem to try to please everyone and end up pleasing nobody.
With that said I don't think if FG or Labour were in power they'd be any different.

But all of that is no use to the OP. I don't know what we could do to fix what we have now either.

Edit:
Disclaimer: I don't fall into the rich category. I'm in one of those vulnerable categories, like most other people in the country.

Permabear

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Dob74

donegalfella wrote: »

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The Social Welfare Budget isnt just Jobseekers allowance but also includes OAP, Childrens Allowance and other smaller things.
So I think means testing CA would be the first cut in that budget. Then its work away from there.

Permabear

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turgon

Do people think there is a high probability of a reemergence of an Irish liberal(/libertarian) party?

jeckel

i'm as sick of hearing about how the wealthy should be protected because they "create employment and stimulate the economy" as i am about the vulnerable needing protection.

ban both points of view outright. then we might get somewhere.

otherwise, we're screwed, get used to it. all that's left is to bend over and take it or be held down.

there's no point in lying to ourselves and saying changing the government will do much good, fianna fail and fianna gael are like a siamese twin that once shared a brain and lost most of it in the sepperation.

Permabear

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turgon

Its a depressing thought, tbh.

What frustrates me most is that, in the absence of a liberal government, everyone is forced to take the burden of the lavish socialist-esque policies of other governments, whether or not they agree with them or not. I'm fine now, but when I start earning proper I would consider emigrating to somewhere "freer" to escape this.

mickoneill30

jeckel wrote: »

i'm as sick of hearing about how the wealthy should be protected because they "create employment and stimulate the economy" as i am about the vulnerable needing protection.

I haven't really heard people calling for the wealthy to be protected. Who does that?

They're not and they shouldn't be but hearing "tax the rich" is as annoying to hear as "protect the vulnerable" or "attack on X".

Darsad

As a nation / people we are subordinate and lazy when it comes to our politicians we accept and accomodate far too much in the way of inept individuals whose only interest is in feathering their own nests . McCarthy has pointed the finger of blame for our current crisis at our current government and Mr Cowen and yet we sit back and allow them to continue in power. Were we any other country we as a people would have ensured these clowns were removed from power or they as individuals would have resigned but not in good old Ireland ( we banned swords so nobody could fall on them ).

turgon

jeckel wrote: »

i'm as sick of hearing about how the wealthy should be protected because they "create employment and stimulate the economy" as i am about the vulnerable needing protection.

Few suggest they be protected. I suggest they simply be not abused.

jeckel

mickoneill30 wrote: »

I haven't really heard people calling for the wealthy to be protected. Who does that?

donegalfella did above.

They're not and they shouldn't be but hearing "tax the rich" is as annoying to hear as "protect the vulnerable" or "attack on X".

the reason you hear "tax the rich" is because we don't. it's more annoying that we don't tax them than it is that people have to keep pointing out that we don't tax them.

turgon wrote: »

Few suggest they be protected. I suggest they simply be not abused.

protected from abuse then? screw 'em, they've abused the rest of us for long enough and if they get sick of it a f**k off i'll lose no sleep.

mickoneill30

jeckel wrote: »

donegalfella did above.

the reason you hear "tax the rich" is because we don't. it's more annoying that we don't tax them than it is that people have to keep pointing out that we don't tax them.

Are you reading the posts on this thread???

Donegalfella didn't say that. If he did, can you quote him.

In my post it said that 47% of the states income comes from 6% of the population. How is that not taxing the rich? What kind of percentage would you prefer? Actually what kind of percentage would you think would work better? Informed answers only please.

Edit:

jeckel wrote: »

protected from abuse then? screw 'em, they've abused the rest of us for long enough and if they get sick of it a f**k off i'll lose no sleep.

Ah fine. Now I see where you're coming from. Won't bother replying to you in future.

jeckel

donegalfella wrote: »

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to me this suggests that the wealthy should be protected from those redistrobutionists.

and where i'm coming from is that this fallacy that the rising tide will float all boats and that the rich and the wealthy will create some sort of functioning economy that equalises us all if they're left to their own devices is just sickening to me. the wealthy should pay their way and if they're not willing to, we don't need them.

Permabear

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Permabear

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jeckel

donegalfella wrote: »

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why? why shouldn't the rich assume a higher level of responsibility for the sustainance of the society which sustains them?

Permabear

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jeckel

donegalfella wrote: »

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given that they create their wealth based entirely on the stability of the society in which they exist they, are the greatest beneficiaries of it. if they benefit most, they should pay most.

the old saying, "he who pays the piper calls the tune" can as easily be reversed to say he who's calling the tune needs to stop asking everyone else to pay the piper.

Permabear

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turgon

donegalfella wrote: »

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Cheers for the article!!

Another problem with talking to people about liberalism is getting over their everyone equal no matter what prejudices. If you suggest they deserve the money because they worked hard you will almost certainly hear allegations they abused the system, or they somehow owe it to "society" or some other wooly argument. I think breaking the "status quo," ie large welfare & nanny state, is always hard.

What would you consider the most liberal country in the world?

jeckel

donegalfella wrote: »

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the cyclical element of consumer economics. the employees are the consumers and so, while they rely on employment to consume, the consumption creates employment. employers don't create jobs, demand creates job and the employers facilitate it.

If they benefit from their own entrepreneurship and hard work, why do they owe anybody anything?

see above, they benefit from the facilitation of consumerism that is impossible in the absence of a stable society. in essence they owe it to themselves, it is in their own best interests.

Who is this "piper" and why does he need to be paid?

a free market economic society. he needs to be paid because it is nigh on impossible to create wealth in an unstable society except through brute force. this wouldn't really suit the present rich, to be fair.

Permabear

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jeckel

donegalfella wrote: »

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being at number 4 to date doesn't seem to have been an altogether successful strategy. how would being more liberal than we have been to date help, exactly?

and on that number 4 ranking, just to point out, the regulation that was supposed to be there wasn't actually carried out in a lot of cases, which realistically probably made us higher in the ranking.

what exactly do you guys think should be liberalised?

regi

"Protect the most vulnerable" by ensuring we balance the budget as quickly as possible, thus ensuring that we can continue to support them at an economically sustainable lower level.

Since when did "protect the most vulnerable" mean continue to payout money blindly and risk one day soon having nothing left to give them? How will the "vulnerable" feel if we had to stop paying civil service, social welfare, doctors and nurses?

turgon

jeckel wrote: »

being at number 4 to date doesn't seem to have been an altogether successful strategy

No? Celtic Tiger?

jeckel wrote: »

what exactly do you guys think should be liberalised?

Perhaps a better question is what we think shouldn't be liberalized