17,000 job cuts proposed... Does this sound like insanity to anyone else?

hatrickpatrick

Seriously... I accept we need to save public money, but more unemployment? Nice way to prolong the vicious cycle of falling profits for companies = more redundancies to break even... Those 17,000 people will take more money out of circulation and add a further strain to the social welfare bill. Whatever we do to fix our economy, this cannot possibly be the right way forward...

Opinions?

ardmacha

So what had you in mind to save the money? As the guy on the RTE news said if all of these cuts were made it would only reduce borrowing by one quarter.

irish_bob

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Seriously... I accept we need to save public money, but more unemployment? Nice way to prolong the vicious cycle of falling profits for companies = more redundancies to break even... Those 17,000 people will take more money out of circulation and add a further strain to the social welfare bill. Whatever we do to fix our economy, this cannot possibly be the right way forward...

Opinions?

lets say theese public servants earn an average of 25k per year , paying them dole costs 11 k and you could add in a further 3 k for medical card and other unemployed benefits , that is a saving of 11 k times 17 thousand

its a significant saving for the exchequer

hatrickpatrick

Now when you factor in the fact that those 17,000 people will obviously slash their personal spending leading to lower profits from the businesses they shop with. Not much of an impact on its own but when you look at the already rising unemployment figures, any more seems like madness...

gurramok

It could be offset if we actually had progressive policies in creating jobs in the private sector for these 17,000 and the existing 415,000 out of work.

We just can't continue to borrow at high interest rates, servicing that will strangle the country economically for a generation aka 80's style.

Tipsy Mac

The country costs about 54billion a year to run, in taxes we are taking in 34billion. 17,000 people going at 45k a head which is their average pay will save 765million. We need 4 times the cuts of Bord Snip to break even.

The country is finished, nothing can save us.

astrofool

Why don't we just hire the 415,000 who are out of work, into the public service. That way, their wages will be spent in the economy, and we'll all live happily ever after.

I can't see any flaws in that plan, can you?

DarkJager

Its only insanity and "unacceptable" when its the public sector isn't it? Personally, I'd love to welcome 17000 public sector workers to the dole queue. Welcome to reality boyos!!

How Strange

Our worthless, criminal government are adopting a shock tactic style cull of the public services. It's so reactionary and imaginative it would deserve our derision if it weren't for how scary it is.

Read Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine and tell me you don't get a shiver down your back as you read about how governments in South Korea, Bolivia, Argentina, Chile, Poland, UK (Thatcher's era), Russia all drafted and implemented drastic cuts to the public services and services which improvrish the lower and middle classes and benefit capitalism and private ind.ustry.

You strip out the public sector and the private sector then dictate to the government how a shrunken public services should be run. It's all part of the liberal agenda; they employ a liberal economist who has no consideration of how many children will lose their support teachers or if families lose their medical cards or you lose the tax benefit on dental treatment or your mother can't get a bed in a nursing home so you have to pay for a private home. These are the small things that add to your quality of life and which are part of the fabric of European society. It's all these things that make me glad to be European and not American.

If these cuts go through then private sector wages are next. Wage cuts will be brought in under a regime of fear because you'll think you're lucky to have a job. In fact we're halfway there already.

Will the politicians and the highest level of civil service get their pay cut and lose their expense accounts and chauffeur driven cars or is it the ordinary mick that gets the chop or becomes poorer because of spending cuts?

This isn't about getting one over on an 'overpaid' public sector. That's what the government spin doctors want you to think. They have created this division to enable them to carry out the cuts with the blessing of the private sector. The government created the disparity and now they're villifying them.

I want to know at what stage Irish people are going to get off their lazy fat asses and revolt against these arrogant f*ckers in government.

Honestly, are we so complacent that we just sit and curse at the news? What does it take for Irish people to take to the streets and protest like the French?

maxwell smart

17,000 isn't enough really, we need to be talking about 50,000. One in four employees in Ireland are state employee of one sort or another, so the taxes from the other 3 in 4 go to pay them, so cutting their numbers means a significant saving and the ability to direct that tax from the private sector to other areas

mikemac

How Strange wrote: »

If these cuts go through then private sector wages are next. Wage cuts will be brought in under a regime of fear because you'll think you're lucky to have a job.

This has already been done for many.

irish_bob

How Strange wrote: »

Our worthless, criminal government are adopting a shock tactic style cull of the public services. It's so reactionary and imaginative it would deserve our derision if it weren't for how scary it is. Read Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine and tell me you don't get a shiver down your back as you read about how governments in South Korea, Bolivia, Argentina, Chile, Poland, UK (Thatcher's era), Russia all drafted and implemented drastic cuts to the public services and services which improvrish the lower and middle classes and benefit capitalism and private industry.

If these cuts go through then private sector wages are next. Wage cuts will be brought in under a regime of fear because you'll think you're lucky to have a job.

Will the politicians and the highest level of civil service get their pay cut and lose their expense accounts and chauffeur driven cars or is it the ordinary mick that gets the chop?

I want to know at what stage Irish people are going to get off their lazy fat asses and revolt against these arrogant f*ckers who call themselves fianna fail.

Honestly, are we so complacent that we just sit and curse at the news? What does it take for Irish people to take to the streets and protest like the French?

wont comment on most of the nonesense in your post but speaking of french , did you know that irish teachers wages are 55% higher than in la france

Red Hand

How Strange wrote: »

If these cuts go through then private sector wages are next. Wage cuts will be brought in under a regime of fear because you'll think you're lucky to have a job.

Ahm...the private in many cases is undergoing wage cuts and has been for some time. It's taken this long for even a suggestion from a government appointed body to even suggest wage cut/employment cut for the public sector.

grahamo

irish_bob wrote: »

wont comment on most of the nonesense in your post but speaking of french , did you know that irish teachers wages are 55% higher than in la france

That may be so but did you know the cost of living in France is much much lower than in Ireland!
Also the French work less hours have more holidays and better working conditions. Probably because they are all union members!

gurramok

grahamo wrote: »

That may be so but did you know the cost of living in France is much much lower than in Ireland!

It ain't that much lower to justify the much higher wage here. Have you ever been to France?

How about we compare ourselves to Finland, another expensive country whose public sector workers don't earn remotely as near as their Irish equivalents.

irish_bob

grahamo wrote: »

That may be so but did you know the cost of living in France is much much lower than in Ireland!
Also the French work less hours have more holidays and better working conditions. Probably because they are all union members!

ah the old chestnut about cost of living , did you know that the cost of living is high because wages are high , besides the cost of living is going down , out of nesscessity i might add , the market demands it right now ,btw , did you know that ireland has double the number of nurses per head than france

deadhead13

From what I understand, Bord Snip Nua didn't actually propose any compulsory job cuts. The reduction is supposed to come from voluntary reduncies, early retirement and not replacing people who leave.

Liz86

Table 1.4 Proposed staffing reductions

Agriculture, Fisheries & Food 1,140
Arts, Sports & Tourism 170
Communications, Energy & Natural Resources 106
Community, Rural & Gaeltacht Affairs 196
Defence 520
Education & Science 6,930
Enterprise, Trade & Employment 594
Environment, Heritage & Local Government 30
Finance Group of Votes 660
Foreign Affairs 65
Health & Children 6,168
Houses of the Oireachtas Commission 42
Justice Group of Votes 540
National Treasury Management Agency 40
Social & Family Affairs -
Taoiseach's Group of Votes 77
Transport 80

I think they could cut more jobs in local govenment, cut the number of td's and abolish the senat.
Staff cuts in education of 6930 and health and children of 6168 is disgraceful!!!!

How Strange

irish_bob wrote: »

wont comment on most of the nonesense in your post but speaking of french , did you know that irish teachers wages are 55% higher than in la france

Why nonsense irish_bob, do you want to live in an american style society?

I'm all for high taxes and lower public wages if we have a responsible government who invest the tax revenue in quality public services.

We have a government who spent 10 years throwing money around and starving necessary public services. The education and health systems were on their knees at the height of our fabled celtic tiger so imagine what state they will be in after the cuts go through.

c montgomery

Slightly off topic but:

3 years ago i bought an appartment for myself as the thinking was if i dont get one now ill never be able to afford one. The only place i could afford was 22 miles from where i work and 20 miles from where i grew up and where my friends live.
Since buying the house i have had my wages reduced, shift rate cut and a number of extra taxes put on me.
I am currently in negative equity of about 100,000!!!
I hate where i live.
I hate the appartment.
I am now in a 2.5 year relationship and would like to start a family but with this much negative equity and living in an appartment its just not possable. I feel trapped and its starting to take its toll on me.

This is what i have gotten from the celtic tiger.

I ****1n hate the government but the opposition are little better.
They have screwed me up for the next decade at least.

irish_bob

How Strange wrote: »

Why nonsense irish_bob, do you want to live in an american style society?

I'm all for high taxes and lower public wages if we have a responsible government who invest the tax revenue in quality public services.

We have a government who spent 10 years throwing money around and starving necessary public services. The education and health systems were on their knees at the height of our fabled celtic tiger so imagine what state they will be in after the cuts go through.

what in the name of blue blazes are you on about , the investment in health and education has more than doubled in the past ten years , most of it was spent on wages to teachers , nurses , doctors and hiring extra staff in administration in the HSE whos only contribution was a vote for FF

as for your question as to whether i want a more american style economy , im into small goverment , i dont believe in the state nannying people who make bad descisons , i dont know whether that makes me want an american system or not

irish_bob

c montgomery wrote: »

Slightly off topic but:

3 years ago i bought an appartment for myself as the thinking was if i dont get one now ill never be able to afford one. The only place i could afford was 22 miles from where i work and 20 miles from where i grew up and where my friends live.
Since buying the house i have had my wages reduced, shift rate cut and a number of extra taxes put on me.
I am currently in negative equity of about 100,000!!!
I hate where i live.
I hate the appartment.
I am now in a 2.5 year relationship and would like to start a family but with this much negative equity and living in an appartment its just not possable. I feel trapped and its starting to take its toll on me.

This is what i have gotten from the celtic tiger.

I ****1n hate the government but the opposition are little better.
They have screwed me up for the next decade at least.

so its the goverments fault you bought in an area which is impractical , perhaps you should have rented and avoided being tied down with a mortgage on what was obviously a very expensive property

How Strange

c montgomery wrote: »

Since buying the house i have had my wages reduced, shift rate cut and a number of extra taxes put on me.
I am currently in negative equity of about 100,000!!!
I hate where i live.
I hate the appartment.
I am now in a 2.5 year relationship and would like to start a family but with this much negative equity and living in an appartment its just not possable. I feel trapped and its starting to take its toll on me.

This is what i have gotten from the celtic tiger.

I ****1n hate the government but the opposition are little better.
They have screwed me up for the next decade at least.

I think everyone is in a similar situation to varying degrees and that's what makes these cuts even more scary. What happens if you have a child and he/she needs a support teacher in school and can't get one because they've been cut. That's the real cost of these cuts - everyday basic services - and seeing as it will be tough for us in the next few years it will be even harder if we have to pay for every service because they aren't available through tax funded public services.

dresden8

irish_bob wrote: »

whos only contribution was a vote for FF

Ah the old chestnut, the old public service gave us FF sh1te.

As jimmmy, your fellow traveller likes to point out, 1.8million private sector workers versus 360,000 public servants.

You gave us FF, we didn't give them to you.

irish_bob

dresden8 wrote: »

Ah, the old public service gave us FF sh1te.

As jimmmy, your fellow traveller likes to point out, 1.8million private sector workers versus 360,000 public servants.

You gave us FF, we didn't give them to you.

and they have been so far the gift that keeps on giving to you

irish_bob

How Strange wrote: »

I think everyone is in a similar situation to varying degrees and that's what makes these cuts even more scary. What happens if you have a child and he/she needs a support teacher in school and can't get one because they've been cut. That's the real cost of these cuts - everyday basic services - and seeing as it will be tough for us in the next few years it will be even harder if we have to pay for every service because they aren't available through tax funded public services.

as ed walsh said on matt cooper earlier , thier will be no need for school children to be effected if teachers choose to take a pay cut , like i said earlier , they are paid 75% more than in france and 55% more than in finland , the teachers have moaned and moaned about class sizes but when it came to negoitations , they have always opted for pay rises instead of chalk and blackboards

How Strange

irish_bob wrote: »

what in the name of blue blazes are you on about , the investment in health and education has more than doubled in the past ten years , most of it was spent on wages to teachers , nurses , doctors and hiring extra staff in administration in the HSE whos only contribution was a vote for FF

as for your question as to whether i want a more american style economy , im into small goverment , i dont believe in the state nannying people who make bad descisons , i dont know whether that makes me want an american system or not

Yes, they may have thrown money at the HSE but the front line services are second world at best so investment isn't the problem. Investing properly is.

You'll still have a nanny state but it won't be tucking you in at night; it will be sticking it's fingers up at you as it takes more and more of your taxes for little in return.

Purple Gorilla

grahamo wrote: »

That may be so but did you know the cost of living in France is much much lower than in Ireland!
Also the French work less hours have more holidays and better working conditions. Probably because they are all union members!

Wrong.
You may want to check out the EU Harmonised Indices of Consumer Prices. It's a Cost of Living Index for all EU member states. I think you'll find that the cost of living is higher in France.
Cost of Living in Ireland in May 2009- 107.6
Cost of Living in France in May 2009- 107.03

Not exactly "much much lower than in Ireland"...infact the opposite

skearon

How Strange wrote: »

The education and health systems were on their knees at the height of our fabled celtic tiger so imagine what state they will be in after the cuts go through.

They weren't 'on their knees' and if the unions dropped their ultra restrictive work practices then both systems would dramatically improve.

blade912

They should cap the top rate of pay including perks and expenses to 140,000 for the public sector and reduce the pay by 30% for the top earners to 5% for the lower end of pay. Then you can keep them all at work.

dresden8

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

Wrong.
You may want to check out the EU Harmonised Indices of Consumer Prices. It's a Cost of Living Index for all EU member states. I think you'll find that the cost of living is higher in France.
Cost of Living in Ireland in May 2009- 107.6
Cost of Living in France in May 2009- 107.03

Not exactly "much much lower than in Ireland"...infact the opposite

That's just a measure of change over a period, not an absolute number on the cost of living.

The change in the cost of living over the period mentioned is roughly the same, it makes no comment on the cost of living itself.

The level of ignorance in this debate is astounding.