17,000 job cuts proposed... Does this sound like insanity to anyone else?

gurramok

dresden8 wrote: »

If you follow the quote I got if from the report. Please pay attention. And where did the benchmarking figure come from, did you leave out the taxation of that amount? And reading your own link the 7.5% is in there as well. No wonder you never passed the public service reading comprehension test.

No need to get personal.

It references 'wages'. Tax relief on pensions reduce that burden by half in my book. Still you will get the money back as its for your pension when you retire, private sector workers on less comparable pay for the same job and by large cannot afford a pension do not get their money back.

And, shock horror, not all the private sector has been let go, no matter how much the public sector bashers love to carry the unemployed as a banner before them.

Since you raised the point of how many public servants have been let go I think I'm within my rights on this board to ask for a reference/quotation as proof.

Ask the CSO. Its been reported in the media from all sides of the spectrum that the vast vast majority of newly unemployed were from the private sector and those that were not were on temporary contracts from the public sector.
Add to this the public sector numbers along with the recruitment embargo and its pretty clear that redundancies were very few number if any at all.

If there were redundancies for permos in the public sector, we would know about it as we pay for their employment.

francish

dresden8 wrote: »

And as another point, many people who have joined the public service later in life will never qualify for anything more than the state contributory pension, which they qualify for through their PRSI contributions.

Their "pension levy" qualifies them for not 1 cent extra.

It was a miserable 7.5% cut at most, get over it and get prepared for larger cuts. I know couples in the private sector who have suffered cuts to their net wage of over 50%. It angers me to listen to constant nonsense from public sector employees, get real, look at the state of countryS finances. WE CANNOT CONTINUE TO BORROW MONEY INDEFINATELY.

itarumaa

gurramok wrote: »

It ain't that much lower to justify the much higher wage here. Have you ever been to France?

How about we compare ourselves to Finland, another expensive country whose public sector workers don't earn remotely as near as their Irish equivalents.

There is a saying in Finland, that roughly transferred would be: the career in public sector is long and narrow, so it basically means that your career is permanent, but the salary is not that good.

superhooper

francish wrote: »

Who has proposed cutting teachers by 50%?

There are other way to improve productivity in education sytem than merely increaing numbers. At present, there is no real evaluation of teachers to ensure they are performing. You could cut teacher numbers by 20% and bring in productivity by bringing in proper evaluation system, sacking underperformers and rewarding achievers.

No one said there would be a reduction of 50%. I used 50% as an example.

bug

gurramok wrote: »

Thats a 'pension levy', you'll get it back.

How many of the 415,000 unemployed came from the public sector?

roffle not so far, but we all knew it was going to happen.

where's the "jobs for life STFU" brigade, they are awful quiet?

I assume that they hope to achieve 17,000 public service jobs cuts by hoping people will take redundancy or early retirement etc before they have to start looking at the rest?
Where's the age profile of the public service?

In the case of third level,there are proposing the amalgamation of third level institutes, which, to the uninvolved eye, looks reasonable.

There are many facets of this, quality of courses and therefore graduates.
Considering they were repeating at us for the last god knows how many years, "Knowledge based economy" they had better not make a mess of consolidation.
Theory versus practical courses etc.
Consolidation in itself will lead to further job cuts, reducing overlapping admin etc. That part is practical.

There are a number of problems I have with this report with regard to the third level aspect, as that is the area I would be personally most interested in.

Regarding PRTLI - "the lack of verifiable economic benefits resulting from these investments"
and it goes on..
"This scheme has been in operation since 1998 and there is insufficient evidence of the positive economic impact of the programme to date. Subject to any contractual commitments, this cycle should be cancelled."

Well I could tell you about the researcher supported and funded under PRTLI, educated by the infrastructure from PRTLI to such a high level who went on to develop various high level products for Irish industry.
Measure it. Of course it's not an isolated case. My point is that just because it wasn't measured, doesn't mean it isnt there.

Which leads me on to this...

irish_bob wrote: »

wouldnt pay too much intention to public sector clones parroting the lines they heard at union camp , to the last man and woman they all utter the same slogans messrs begg and o connor briefed them with

WE DIDNT CAUSE THIS MESS

.. that my friend is the truth whatever way you look at it, not being unionised I can see that, the government caused this mess through large scale mis management.

My fear is that because Bertie and friends were afraid to tackle reformation of the Public Service back in the day, we will all suffer the consequences through knee jerk policies.

It's quite obvious to anyone they haven't a clue what they are doing but have to look like they are doing something.

dresden8

gurramok wrote: »

Ask the CSO. Its been reported in the media from all sides of the spectrum that the vast vast majority of newly unemployed were from the private sector

Maybe because the vast majority of employment is in the private sector? Since you raised the point it's up to you to provide figures/links/quotations. Please provide them.

And public sector pay includes contract workers, not just "permos"

ntlbell

How Strange wrote: »

.

Honestly, are we so complacent that we just sit and curse at the news? What does it take for Irish people to take to the streets and protest like the French?

like holding business's as hostages and demanding 100k a head or burn the place down?

francish

superhooper wrote: »

No one said there would be a reduction of 50%. I used 50% as an example.

Do you agree with my second point? I went to a secondary school where at least 50% of teachers were useless. There was no system to check performance. Some old middle aged man in tweed suit would appear in classroom once a year but I never saw any action being taken. All media commentary focuses on teacher numbers, suggesting that more teachers' equals better education.

ntlbell

c montgomery wrote: »

Slightly off topic but:

3 years ago i bought an appartment for myself as the thinking was if i dont get one now ill never be able to afford one. The only place i could afford was 22 miles from where i work and 20 miles from where i grew up and where my friends live.
Since buying the house i have had my wages reduced, shift rate cut and a number of extra taxes put on me.
I am currently in negative equity of about 100,000!!!
I hate where i live.
I hate the appartment.
I am now in a 2.5 year relationship and would like to start a family but with this much negative equity and living in an appartment its just not possable. I feel trapped and its starting to take its toll on me.

This is what i have gotten from the celtic tiger.

I ****1n hate the government but the opposition are little better.
They have screwed me up for the next decade at least.

huh? why are you annoyed at the government because YOU made shockingly bad financial descions, the goverment are not to blame for your current circumstances you are

TheInquisitor

Sounds like the smartest thing i've heard in years! Disappointed they didn't cut the minimum wage by at least 2 euro and also that they only cut the dole by 5%. Do we really want to turn out like britain where 47% of the country are on some kind of benefit?

superhooper

francish wrote: »

Do you agree with my second point? I went to a secondary school where at least 50% of teachers were useless. There was no system to check performance. Some old middle aged man in tweed suit would appear in classroom once a year but I never saw any action being taken. All media commentary focuses on teacher numbers, suggesting that more teachers' equals better education.

I totally agree. I'd imagine everyone has come across poor performance in various aspects the public service and thats what pisses people off the most when they are tring to defend themselves.

unwyse

lighten up people,its only a joke.biffo just wants to give us all a good laugh while he saunters off on his summer hols,itll never happen!!!! viva la revolution.

Fishtits

Firstly, I haven't read all the posts, so sorry if this is off tack. Just want to point something out.

Matt Cooper, Today FM & the news staff led this evening with the line that X thousand Civil Servants, according to the An Bord Snip Nua, should be made redundant.

Bull****.

Reducing CS no's by X thousand does not mean redundancies, it could be achieved by natural retirement. ie nobody is served with a vacate & bugger off notice.

Pr*ck

TheInquisitor

Fishtits wrote: »

Firstly, I haven't read all the posts, so sorry if this is off tack. Just want to point something out.

Matt Cooper, Today FM & the news staff led this evening with the line that X thousand Civil Servants, according to the An Bord Snip Nua, should be made redundant.

Bull****.

Reducing CS no's by X thousand does not mean redundancies, it could be achieved by natural retirement. ie nobody is served with a vacate & bugger off notice.

Pr*ck

17000 would retire over a few months to a year? What have you been smoking!?

francish

c montgomery wrote: »

Slightly off topic but:

3 years ago i bought an appartment for myself as the thinking was if i dont get one now ill never be able to afford one. The only place i could afford was 22 miles from where i work and 20 miles from where i grew up and where my friends live.
Since buying the house i have had my wages reduced, shift rate cut and a number of extra taxes put on me.
I am currently in negative equity of about 100,000!!!
I hate where i live.
I hate the appartment.
I am now in a 2.5 year relationship and would like to start a family but with this much negative equity and living in an appartment its just not possable. I feel trapped and its starting to take its toll on me.

This is what i have gotten from the celtic tiger.

I ****1n hate the government but the opposition are little better.
They have screwed me up for the next decade at least.

You, like most other people who bought during the last 5 years are or will be in negative equity because you made a bad decision. Certainly there are things the government could have done to dampen the bubble but at the end of the day, individuals have to take personal responsibility for their decisions. I am sorry you are in this mess. Everyone has friends and/or family who are in the same boat.

superhooper

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Sounds like the smartest thing i've heard in years! Disappointed they didn't cut the minimum wage by at least 2 euro and also that they only cut the dole by 5%. Do we really want to turn out like britain where 47% of the country are on some kind of benefit?

Don't suppose the min wage was part of their agenda but I do agree it is too high having increased by 45% since 2002!!!

amacca

francish wrote: »

Who has proposed cutting teachers by 50%?

There are other way to improve productivity in education sytem than merely increaing numbers. At present, there is no real evaluation of teachers to ensure they are performing. You could cut teacher numbers by 20% and bring in productivity by bringing in proper evaluation system, sacking underperformers and rewarding achievers.

Having worked as one in the past Id agree with this if we also provide said teachers with proper resources and also "evaluate" the students so its possible to discipline the small but exceptionally disruptive minority of students that can only be described as delinquents so that said teacher might actually be allowed be productive in their work.

video cameras in class and zero tolerance of disruptive behaviour (home holiday extended until said student stops disrupting) might kill two birds with the one stone here?

otherwise pay them the premium for having to nearly do the impossible as things stand in a lot of schools?

same goes for frontline gardai who bring criminals to court only for a judge to give them derisory sentences and the scumbags walk out smiling. Reduce their pay if they are properly resourced and criminals are punished properly in this country!

deadhead13

TheInquisitor wrote: »

17000 would retire over a few months to a year? What have you been smoking!?

Crazy as it seems, that is in fact what was proposed.

c_dog

this country is a joke

irish_bob

Shaughraun wrote: »

This to me is the most important question, and one that needs to be asked by everyone involved in this bloodbath- are the majority of these "snips" a direct result of bailing out the banks?

no , thier a direct result of bertie throwing money at public sector workers via unions so as to keep them voting FF , quangos were also created by the hundred , not to create jobs or services , to create FF voters

bug

irish_bob wrote: »

no , thier a direct result of bertie throwing money at public sector workers via unions so as to keep them voting FF , quangos were also created by the hundred , not to create jobs or services , to create FF voters

Oh come on.

They threw money at everything! without any long term planning, or measurement of that money, including forseable practical goals. It's always been the issue in this country.

At least be realistic and inclusive.

jank

c montgomery wrote: »

Slightly off topic but:

3 years ago i bought an appartment for myself as the thinking was if i dont get one now ill never be able to afford one. The only place i could afford was 22 miles from where i work and 20 miles from where i grew up and where my friends live.
Since buying the house i have had my wages reduced, shift rate cut and a number of extra taxes put on me.
I am currently in negative equity of about 100,000!!!
I hate where i live.
I hate the appartment.
I am now in a 2.5 year relationship and would like to start a family but with this much negative equity and living in an appartment its just not possable. I feel trapped and its starting to take its toll on me.

This is what i have gotten from the celtic tiger.

I ****1n hate the government but the opposition are little better.
They have screwed me up for the next decade at least.

Did the government make you buy the apartment? How about owning up and taking responsiblity for your own choices rather than blaming someone else.

gaeilgegrinds

French teachers get paid 75% less than us? I lived in France for quite some time and really don't see how they could live on this...

gaeilgegrinds

And as a teacher I'd love more checks, then maybe more good teachers would be let teach and get in that door but for now we're doing the best we can. Surely it's not our fault as teachers we are not checked on more often?

deadhead13

jank wrote: »

Did the government make you buy the apartment? How about owning up and taking responsiblity for your own choices rather than blaming someone else.

You have a point, but as much government would want us to believe otherwise , they did play a significant role in Ireland's unique inability to cope with with the current global recession. So FF & Co. have to take some of the responsiblity for the position that c montgomery and 1000's of others find themselves in. I think he has a few legitimate grievances.

dresden8

deadhead13 wrote: »

You have a point, but as much government would want us to believe otherwise , they did play a significant role in Ireland's unique inability to cope with with the current global recession. So FF & Co. have to take some of the responsiblity for the position that c montgomery and 1000's of others find themselves in. I think he has a few legitimate grievances.

Indeed, if anybody had pointed out the error of his ways Berte would have invited them to commit suicide.

Always remember Bertie. Never let him be re-habilitated in the future.

c montgomery

irish_bob wrote: »

so its the goverments fault you bought in an area which is impractical , perhaps you should have rented and avoided being tied down with a mortgage on what was obviously a very expensive property

No its their fault for letting the property market spiral out of control. Its their fault that due to planning laws theirs loads of people in a similar boat as myself living in commuter towns like myself with which they have no links.
I could have rented but at the time it seemed like a good investment due to the government spawned perception the good times were here to stay.
Plus at the time i was paying less in a mortage that i would have been renting you patronising Pr1ck.

bug

deadhead13 wrote: »

You have a point, but as much government would want us to believe otherwise , they did play a significant role in Ireland's unique inability to cope with with the current global recession. So FF & Co. have to take some of the responsiblity for the position that c montgomery and 1000's of others find themselves in. I think he has a few legitimate grievances.

Indeed. Completely as an aside, and as this montgomery poster is getting slated for his misfortune in believing the bubble wouldn't burst, like those we entrusted did...

...As for having kids in the new, non-city centre, tenaments, our grandmothers and grandfathers did it with less than we have, we all survived as prodgeny to tell the tale.
The cycle continues albeit with a different face of debt and the current non-existance of any form of social responsibility, but on a up note, so will we.
We'll all get on with it.

jumpguy

How Strange wrote: »

I want to know at what stage Irish people are going to get off their lazy fat asses and revolt against these arrogant f*ckers in government.

Not until the Irish is united against a common enemy, and at the moment, everyone is divided. We'll just resort to the ole tactic of emigration.

Speaking about this, is it just me who thought the RTE report tonight on the Department of Arts, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs was the biggest joke of all? About 10 fellows at computers...translating old gravestones. I could feel the bile coming up into my throat in disgust. Our public sector is just too inefficient and the public sector should never be the corner stone of an economy tbh.

ejmaztec

The government probably love it when their subjects are tearing each other apart. They can then sneak off on exotic summer holidays while the country festers on.