17,000 job cuts proposed... Does this sound like insanity to anyone else?

ejmaztec

jumpguy wrote: »

Not until the Irish is united against a common enemy, and at the moment, everyone is divided. We'll just resort to the ole tactic of emigration.

Speaking about this, is it just me who thought the RTE report tonight on the Department of Arts, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs was the biggest joke of all? About 10 fellows at computers...translating old gravestones. I could feel the bile coming up into my throat in disgust. Our public sector is just too inefficient and the public sector should never be the corner stone of an economy tbh.

Where to?

jumpguy

ejmaztec wrote: »

Where to?

I know lots of people who've already emigrated. Some to Canada, some to Australia. Australia is not even in a recession yet, and Canada's problems are meagre. Yes, both countries are facing rising unemployment, but there is a far, far, far better chance of finding work there. And, everyone who I know that has so far emigrated has found work.

jank

c montgomery wrote: »

I could have rented but at the time it seemed like a good investment due to the government spawned perception the good times were here to stay.

????:rolleyes:
Sorry but you will get no sympathy from me. You saw yourself making big money from buying an apartment and jumping on the property train. Whoooppiee! LOL we will all be millionaires!

How about your perception? How about what you think! Or do you swallow everything the government tells you.
Do a google on Sheeple.

Oh by the way, I think FF are a cancer on the country but the people that are stuck with negative equity and are giving out about this need to take responsibility for their actions. Nobody ever ever ever forces you to buy a house. Government of course has to take the blame for its actions and bad decisions but where is the responsibility of the individual. You are equally culpable IMO.

This bubble was seen back in 2001, yet people kept on buying! cause Ireland was different. You and others were duped, not a nice feeling but hey its your fault...

Senna

This 17k redundancies is just a smoke screen, just something reported so FF can look like their doing something, i had high hopes of an board snip, but it produced very little. The 17k redundancies is nothing more than 17k staff will not be hired after 17k staff retire, contracts end, etc nothing more.

The PS needs a comprehensive evaluation, office by office, department by department, then non-performance or job duplications should be sacked.
I would guarantee even with a recruitment policy in place for areas that need manpower identified by the evaluation, a lot more money could be saved and we would have the bases for a better operated public service. During a recession, any country should be implementing policies that will lead to a more cost effective and stable platform for the years ahead, not plastering over the problems with hopes that it will "sort its self out" when the good times come back again:rolleyes:.

Firetrap

TheInquisitor wrote: »

17000 would retire over a few months to a year? What have you been smoking!?

They're definitely trying to scare the bejesus out of anyone who's close to retirement age. I don't know how many people have decided to retire (closing date is September) but my guess is that they're hoping An Bord Snip's findings will concentrate some minds. Anecdotally, I know of some people a year or so off 60 who have decided that it's time to get to hell out of the public service. The pension levy took a nice few euros out of people's pay packets and a taxed lump sum would be another cost.

c montgomery

jank wrote: »

????:rolleyes:
Sorry but you will get no sympathy from me. You saw yourself making big money from buying an apartment and jumping on the property train. Whoooppiee! LOL we will all be millionaires!

How about your perception? How about what you think! Or do you swallow everything the government tells you.
Do a google on Sheeple.

Oh by the way, I think FF are a cancer on the country but the people that are stuck with negative equity and are giving out about this need to take responsibility for their actions. Nobody ever ever ever forces you to buy a house. Government of course has to take the blame for its actions and bad decisions but where is the responsibility of the individual. You are equally culpable IMO.

This bubble was seen back in 2001, yet people kept on buying! cause Ireland was different. You and others were duped, not a nice feeling but hey its your fault...

When i say investment i never intended turning it over in a year to make a quick buck. Rents were out of control so i taught i could but rather than rent and maybe in a few years trade up to something bigger.
I know i have to take responsibility for my actions but i was led to believe that their at worst would be a soft landing.
I am not an idiot and this has been the worst decision i have ever made, a decision i will be paying for for the rest of my working life.
I just think ff are somewhat to blame for this too.

jank

c montgomery wrote: »

When i say investment i never intended turning it over in a year to make a quick buck. Rents were out of control so i taught i could but rather than rent and maybe in a few years trade up to something bigger.
I know i have to take responsibility for my actions but i was led to believe that their at worst would be a soft landing.
I am not an idiot and this has been the worst decision i have ever made, a decision i will be paying for for the rest of my working life.
I just think ff are somewhat to blame for this too.

At least its a wake up call for you not to listen to vested interest groups. Soft landing my ass, not once in the history of the world has there been a soft landing after a property bubble, never.....and guess what that still holds true today. You may not be an idiot but only the very naive would swallow the crap that was being said back in the good times.

Well you know what they say fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on......

Senna

jank wrote: »

but only the very naive would swallow the crap that was being said back in the good times.

I'm sorry but thats just crap, 100's of thousands bought during the bubble, they may not have research the purchase enough, but when FF are offering bigger and bigger intensives to buy property and the media w****rs were/are proclaiming property as the messiah, the average joe didn't stand a chance. People have to take responsibility for the decisions they made, but have every right to blame the charlatans that propped up the market just to line their own pockets, just as much as they blame themselves.

maninasia

Since this is only a recommendation not all of the proposals will pass through...less than 1.8 billion will ultimately be cut in my books. That leaves a further 4/5 of a hole with no way to fill it. And that's just for this year. The government also needs to borrow a further 20 billion next year to cover the annual deficit, however next year's economy will see further shrinkage resulting in an even LESS revenue than this year with even MORE social welfare beneficiaries (20 billion spend and counting!). You can't hide from the numbers and the economy will have to be fully restructured or undergo a decade(s) long recession. What about every public sector worker taking a 20% pay cut and cuttting staff levels by 10% and cutting social welfare at least further 10%. Because there will definitely not be enough money to go around without either massive job cuts, massive reductions in public services or huge tax hikes and tax hikes will just encourage all the talent to leave faster.

I can also see the government hoping and probably encouraging as many people as possible will emigrate....while they earn more than politicians from the US or Germany..shame on them. However one thing is for sure, emigration will be the best option for many. Emigrating is not all bad, it's a big world out there and I'd encourage people to think seriously about options now and look forward not backwards. If you are in medical/pharma/online services you'll probably be okay. Otherwise take the chance to get education now because that's where the jobs are...technical skill sets.

The government and even the rest of the TDs are just earning a salary right now and going through the motions, taking their holidays of 2-3 mths is proof that there is no commitment to leading the nation. Where are the leaders?

20 billion annual hole debt requirement
20 billion in social welfare spending and rising fast
Even less revenue as economy shrinks.

1.8 billion saving = Waste of time.

K-9

Senna wrote: »

This 17k redundancies is just a smoke screen, just something reported so FF can look like their doing something, i had high hopes of an board snip, but it produced very little. The 17k redundancies is nothing more than 17k staff will not be hired after 17k staff retire, contracts end, etc nothing more.

They will do it as it is their only hope for re-election or probably more accurately, a little credibility in the future.

They'll get the 17,000 between temporary jobs and natural retirements, no bothers.

c montgomery

jank wrote: »

At least its a wake up call for you not to listen to vested interest groups. Soft landing my ass, not once in the history of the world has there been a soft landing after a property bubble, never.....and guess what that still holds true today. You may not be an idiot but only the very naive would swallow the crap that was being said back in the good times.

Well you know what they say fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on......

Naive and full of enthuasiam is a fair description of me at the time. I have grown up so much in the last 2 years its unbelieveable.

I wont be fooled again:)

c montgomery

Senna wrote: »

I'm sorry but thats just crap, 100's of thousands bought during the bubble, they may not have research the purchase enough, but when FF are offering bigger and bigger intensives to buy property and the media w****rs were/are proclaiming property as the messiah, the average joe didn't stand a chance. People have to take responsibility for the decisions they made, but have every right to blame the charlatans that propped up the market just to line their own pockets, just as much as they blame themselves.

Thank you:):)

randypriest

maninasia wrote: »

The government and even the rest of the TDs are just earning a salary right now and going through the motions, taking their holidays of 2-3 mths is proof that there is no commitment to leading the nation. Where are the leaders?

So true. This Government is a complete disgrace without a basic knowledge of Economics. Brian Cowen propped up an economy for years based on an innefficient public sector and a highly bloated property bubble which drove the whole thing. The surge from the construction sector is never coming back, the country is spiraling out of control with debt and this will strangle our next generation who will have to pay for it through high taxes and people already in negative equity who will never be debt free. And the present leadership is incompetant, inept and rudderless.

Who would have though we would see high volume emigration in Ireland again.:(

jank

Senna wrote: »

I'm sorry but thats just crap, 100's of thousands bought during the bubble, they may not have research the purchase enough, but when FF are offering bigger and bigger intensives to buy property and the media w****rs were/are proclaiming property as the messiah, the average joe didn't stand a chance. People have to take responsibility for the decisions they made, but have every right to blame the charlatans that propped up the market just to line their own pockets, just as much as they blame themselves.

As I said, people are equally culpable. But there is very little onus out there for people to put their hands up and take responsibility for their own actions Maybe next time around people wont listen to these "groups"! But when will average joe take some responsibility?

c montgomery

jank wrote: »

As I said, people are equally culpable. But there is very little onus out there for people to put their hands up and take responsibility for their own actions Maybe next time around people wont listen to these "groups"! But when will average joe take some responsibility?

These "groups" as you call them were everywhere. If matt cooper had an economist on saying the property market was overheating he would have another 2 saying th opposite. You had eddie hobbs on the tv and radio with shows showing how to spend money wisely and then trying to sell shares in a shopping complex in germany which he was fronting.
I can take responsibility for my actions but i was misled by the media and government in taking these actions.
Can you not see the point im trying to make????Or is its all average joes fault for falling for it?????

gurramok

dresden8 wrote: »

Maybe because the vast majority of employment is in the private sector? Since you raised the point it's up to you to provide figures/links/quotations. Please provide them.

And public sector pay includes contract workers, not just "permos"

Contract workers are going to be let go anyway, thats the risk. They are called temps for a reason.

Have you not being watching the news lately?

http://www.grantthornton.ie/Pressroom/News/Pressrelease:FiguresfromCSOshowburdenonprivatesectorhasgrownby25_Percent_tosupportrisingpublicsectorAndsocialwelfarecosts

Public sector employment grew by 5,200 from 363,900 to 369,100 in the year to September 2008.
However, while there has been a fall of 4,000 in the quarter from June 2008 to September 2008, this is not an exceptional element. In 2007, public sector employment fell by 8,300 between June and September.
The main contributor to the drop of 4,000 in the latest quarter was in the VEC and Institutes of Technology, where employment fell by 2,700 – but again there was a similar fall in 2007.
In summary, there is no evidence of underlying falls in public sector employment.

http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0605/jobless.html

NCB also said the slowdown in signings-on reflected the rapid adjustment in wages in the private sector and the fact that many firms had already put in place redundancy programmes in anticipation of the marked slowdown in activity.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0228/1224241990766.html

The CSO figures suggest the private sector is bearing the brunt of the job losses. In the year to November more than 97,000 private sector employees lost their jobs while employment numbers in public-service dominated areas of health, education and public administration and defence rose by around 10,000.

Rossa White, senior economist with Davy, said industries closest to the collapsing construction sector had been worst hit by job losses but added no pain-sharing was evident: it was the private sector shedding jobs.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0630/1224249782307.html

More than 371,000 people were employed by the State in all of its operations in March 2009, up from 368,300 the year before, but 2,900 people have been let go or have not had their contracts renewed since December.

Nearly 3,000 more people are working in education in the year to March and 1,500 in hospitals. Yet 500 fewer are working for semi-State companies and 1,200 fewer in local authorities and other local bodies.

However, nearly 20,000 more have been employed by the State in the last three years – even though 3,600 fewer people work for semi-State companies due to privatisations than did in March 2006.

More than 8,000 more work in hospitals; though this figure includes some workers who would not have been previously included in earlier statistics, while Garda Síochána numbers rose by 2,000 during the three years.

Some 30 per cent of all State workers are employed in health, as they were in 2006, while the shares held by other categories have changed little during that period, indicating that no major reorganisations have taken place.

The CSO pay figures prompted small and medium employers’ organisation ISME to demand major reforms and “individual audits” to be done in each State body to see where job numbers could be cut.

Nearly 115,000 people have lost their jobs in the private sector. While average pay levels have been cut by 13 per cent, State pay levels continued to rise, said ISME.

My question is how many permo public sector workers have been let go?

The answer appears to be zero unless you can provide figures/links/quotations.

The workforce has shrunk by up to 200,000 and public sector numbers has held up, do your maths.

gurramok

Here's more from the man himself (CSO quoted)

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/06/26/employment-gains-and-losses-by-sector/

The public sector employment numbers kept rising while everywhere else declined. Its so damn obvious in that i should not have to explain this to you

Fat_Fingers

dresden8 wrote: »

That's a measured response.

lol, thanks man! i needed a good laugh! It was getting a bit too depressing reading all this. :D

7mountpleasant

c montgomery wrote: »

Or is its all average joes fault for falling for it?????

in a nutshell yes, if you make an important descision based on the unresearched opionions or representations of self interested groups and individuals I believe that the blame lies sole on ones self, i don't want to live in a nanny state populated by Daily Mail readers who believe that they should be guided through all lifes major descisions and that the blame for things not turning out the way they had hoped lies with the goverment and/or the estabilishment (throw in generic why can't the bankers/developers suffer instead line).

jimmmy

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

The country costs about 54billion a year to run, in taxes we are taking in 34billion. 17,000 people going at 45k a head which is their average pay will save 765million. We need 4 times the cuts of Bord Snip to break even.

The country is finished, nothing can save us.

Not far off the mark.

Its obvious public sector pay should have been slashed ...why should we continue to have the highest paid public sector in the world ? If public sector pay was not so high, our finances would not have got so bad. Although there is overstaffing in the public service, socially it would be better to employ 320,000 people at a fair wage ( a wage much less than todays average wages, to bring it more in to line with public service wages internationally etc, or even a bit less ) than to employ 300,000 at a wage of 50k a year each ( plus perks eg still subsidised pension, short working week etc etc) , the current situation and have the extra unemployed.

ragg

exactly Jimmy - its time for this country get real. Our day in the sun is over. this should just be the start of the rationalisation of the public sector. Pay & pensions still havn't been touched.

Its a har pill for public sector workers to swallow, but its the reality of the situation we are in.

jank

c montgomery wrote: »

These "groups" as you call them were everywhere. If matt cooper had an economist on saying the property market was overheating he would have another 2 saying th opposite. You had eddie hobbs on the tv and radio with shows showing how to spend money wisely and then trying to sell shares in a shopping complex in germany which he was fronting.
I can take responsibility for my actions but i was misled by the media and government in taking these actions.
Can you not see the point im trying to make????Or is its all average joes fault for falling for it?????

I am not sure what the point is here. There are always vested interests, such is life but the onus is on people to make their own well reasoned decisions. When it then goes pot one cant turn around and blame the government. So ya it is average joes fault for being the sheeple that follow what "experts" say.

Fat_Fingers

I have no time for union representatives, likes of David Beggs. The man who said let the bankers pay for this mess and we didn't create this. Well, David Beggs DID create this. He was and still is on the board of directors of the central bank. He did have access to all information and he did nothing.
Work practices have to change in public service but we have to stop thinking all public service is bad, lazy and the other one we hear is "pencil pushers". What is this , "pencil pushers"? Are the rest "hard working" but admin staff are retards? Vast majority of these so called retarded "pencil pushers" are "hard working" staff who got promoted so please less of the that.
No i don't work in public service, i'm in private sector. I do think public service needs reform but i'm worried government will once again make all wrong decisions and front line will suffer but quangos and bureaucracy will only continue to grow . Or is Brian Cowen the most devious of the all, even better then Bertie??? Is he going to let Ireland fall in the hands of IMF and let the IMF do his dirty work for him??
He keeps saying economy problems are nothing to do with him but its international crises. What a neck!!!
Is he waiting for country to collapse so he can say he didn't sack 20% public service and increased taxes for another 15% , its not me , its IMF????

How Strange

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

I have no time for union representatives, likes of David Beggs. The man who said let the bankers pay for this mess and we didn't create this. Well, David Beggs DID create this. He was and still is on the board of directors of the central bank. He did have access to all information and he did nothing.

I agree, the unions were on the popularity ride too over the last few years securing pay rises for their members which contributed to the state we're in now.

Work practices have to change in public service but we have to stop thinking all public service is bad, lazy and the other one we hear is "pencil pushers". What is this , "pencil pushers"? Are the rest "hard working" but admin staff are retards? Vast majority of these so called retarded "pencil pushers" are "hard working" staff who got promoted so please less of the that.

That is a tactic of the government spin doctors; pitch the private sector against the public to detract attention from the real problem - that the government won't make cuts where it's needed - quango's, politician pay, expenses, duplication of high serving roles (HSE/Dept of Health for example)

I do think public service needs reform but i'm worried government will once again make all wrong decisions and front line will suffer but quangos and bureaucracy will only continue to grow .

I agree.

Or is Brian Cowen the most devious of the all, even better then Bertie??? Is he going to let Ireland fall in the hands of IMF and let the IMF do his dirty work for him??

Not devious perhaps, he's certainly no Bertie, but I think FF have always had a liberalist agenda (closer to Boston than Brussels) and an IMF bailout and subsequent enforced privatisation of all public services would keep the blood off FF's hands.

He keeps saying economy problems are nothing to do with him but its international crises. What a neck!!!
Is he waiting for country to collapse so he can say he didn't sack 20% public service and increased taxes for another 15% , its not me , its IMF????

Funny that eh! When we were riding high they took credit for everything, even policies that were set down by FG and Labour in 80's. Now it's turned sour they shout their mantra about a global economic crisis.

FF have themselves in a FF nightmare - should they selflessly do what's best for the country and make the awful cuts necessary (not just public sector wage cuts and health spend cuts) but slash the number of TD's, streamline county councils, face down the unions, curb tax loop holes for the wealthy, turn their backs on their developer and banker cronies and work towards building a better, more equitable Ireland.

IMO, FF will never do this because their politics is based on cronyism and populism. They won't and haven't made the tough decisions to plug a hole in the sinking ship yet because they fear it will result in the FF political annhilation because that's their end game - being popular. They won't do anything which results in them not getting elected again for two or three terms.

So yes, I think FF and BC would sell us to the IMF rather than drop their b*lls and try to sort this mess (of their own making) out.

Ms Happy

DarkJager wrote: »

Its only insanity and "unacceptable" when its the public sector isn't it? Personally, I'd love to welcome 17000 public sector workers to the dole queue. Welcome to reality boyos!!

I really hope you're joking....

Soldier

oh ya here we go again the public sector rant. it wasnt the public sector who got us into this mess it was the government and the greedy bankers. Many of the public sector employees are on peanuts not everyone is at the top. i didnt hear the people in the private sector complaining when they were receiving their big bonuses in the boom though oh no it was ok then but as soon as the sh** hits the fan its the public sectors fault. its not the employees fault they decided to go for security in their jobs over bonuses. everyone had a choice to make to go for the public or private sector so dont winge about the choice you made now that the country is going down the toilet.

Ms Happy

Soldier wrote: »

oh ya here we go again the public sector rant. it wasnt the public sector who got us into this mess it was the government and the greedy bankers. Many of the public sector employees are on peanuts not everyone is at the top. i didnt hear the people in the private sector complaining when they were receiving their big bonuses in the boom though oh no it was ok then but as soon as the sh** hits the fan its the public sectors fault. its not the employees fault they decided to go for security in their jobs over bonuses. everyone had a choice to make to go for the public or private sector so dont winge about the choice you made now that the country is going down the toilet.

+1

As I've said before I'm not permanent, never will be and I'm on just over €24K doing the job of basically 2 people most of the time. not everyone in the public sector is on massive salaries & huge guaranteed pensions.

the_dark_side

IMF by this time next year... maybe a bit longer. The books are impossible to balance as it is, and if unemployment goes to 16%, we are a done docket

MaryFeeney80

Yeah but the amount of money earned is totally irrelevant when everything costs a bomb. And the social benifits in Finland are huge. If you get sick there, you don' pay a penny and it is the best health service in the world. That's the thing that annoys me the most, we pay massive taxes and the cost of living is ridiculous yet we get bugger all in return.

TheInquisitor

c montgomery wrote: »

When i say investment i never intended turning it over in a year to make a quick buck. Rents were out of control so i taught i could but rather than rent and maybe in a few years trade up to something bigger.
I know i have to take responsibility for my actions but i was led to believe that their at worst would be a soft landing.
I am not an idiot and this has been the worst decision i have ever made, a decision i will be paying for for the rest of my working life.
I just think ff are somewhat to blame for this too.

You thought, you assumed etc. A wise man (on a hijacked train) once said "Assumption is the mother of all **** ups". You were living 20 miles from anywhere in a ridiculously expensive place, its no one elses fault but your own. A home is not an investment