17,000 job cuts proposed... Does this sound like insanity to anyone else?

rebel girl 15

This is a self fulfilling prophecy - because of the tightness of money, people will spend less, therefore less tax income for the Gov. This will lead to knock on effects of more jobs being lost due to less demand, and the loss of income taxes. the widespread effects go on and on. I've heard people say that it should be more, since it will be cheaper to pay them the dole rather than a wage, but it is a catch 22 situation. They will lose more than the 10K in dole, the PAYE contribution etc plus whatever redundancy package they will have to pay them. It also crushes confidence in the people in the economy

This Government is irresponsible and it is the same people that are being hit all the time - the pension levy etc etc. This country will be brought to its knees unless they try to stimulate the country rather than all the cuts. I read that article above and was struck by a phrase in

irish_bob

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

This is a self fulfilling prophecy - because of the tightness of money, people will spend less, therefore less tax income for the Gov. This will lead to knock on effects of more jobs being lost due to less demand, and the loss of income taxes. the widespread effects go on and on. I've heard people say that it should be more, since it will be cheaper to pay them the dole rather than a wage, but it is a catch 22 situation. They will lose more than the 10K in dole, the PAYE contribution etc plus whatever redundancy package they will have to pay them. It also crushes confidence in the people in the economy

This Government is irresponsible and it is the same people that are being hit all the time - the pension levy etc etc. This country will be brought to its knees unless they try to stimulate the country rather than all the cuts. I read that article above and was struck by a phrase in

the PAYE a civil servant pays is merley them moving around tax that was originally earned in the private sector to pay them , cutting the cost of employing a civil servant from 25k to around 15k even after you factor in reduncancy is worthwhile

c montgomery

irish_bob wrote: »

if you come on here whinging about foolish descisions you made , dont bitch when you get blunt replies

I was neither whining or bitching. I was simply stating my opinion. I take responsibility for my actions but i just want it to be acknowledged that thousands of us were misled by the government and economists and will be paying the price for decades.

c montgomery

GUIGuy wrote: »

To me 17,000 is very low. Lets do some simple sums.

There are about 370,000 in the public sector.http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/politics/average-public-sector-pay-hits-50600-95212.html

If you take the average career as ~40years then we need to hire 9500 per year to keep even. Don't hire anyone new and the numbers drop by the same amount.

This 17,000 figure was to be over 5 years. So natural wastage would be 45000 over the same period. So they will still be hiring 28000 people over the next 5 years.

Ok it's a 'Snip' hardly really a cut. No major job cuts at all.

Fantastic bit of sence:):):)

colly10

How Strange wrote: »

If these cuts go through then private sector wages are next...

Have you been away for a while?

jmayo

c montgomery wrote: »

No its their fault for letting the property market spiral out of control. Its their fault that due to planning laws theirs loads of people in a similar boat as myself living in commuter towns like myself with which they have no links.
I could have rented but at the time it seemed like a good investment due to the government spawned perception the good times were here to stay.
Plus at the time i was paying less in a mortage that i would have been renting you patronising Pr1ck.

Yes it was their fault for not dampening down the market, for allowing tax breaks, for allowing the banks to throw out the rule book when lending, but ordinary people bought into it hook line and sinker.
People either just wanted to get on "the ladder" at all costs, some wanted to make a quick buck like their buddies, some wanted to build an empire of buy to lets ?

How could people believe that we could base an economy on construction :eek:
Even worse the government actually believed it, since they based their expenditure on it and that is the real crime of the last 12 years and it is the one that will sink the country.

How could anybody realistically say that we could keep building houses and selling them to each other?

The government of course, the vested interests, along with those that bought into the myth of ever rising houses prices, were very quick to savage the naysayers.
I often got a lecture from developer and investor friends telling me how we would never get anywhere as a country if people listened to the likes of me and the king of naysayers David McWilliams.

c montgomery wrote: »

I was neither whining or bitching. I was simply stating my opinion. I take responsibility for my actions but i just want it to be acknowledged that thousands of us were misled by the government and economists and will be paying the price for decades.

Dear God do you believe everything that the government (or any politician) tells you, do you believe every utterance from an economist, who is working for either a finanical institution or estate agency with a vested interest in talking up the market ?
Did you believe the claptrap from the likes of Brendan O'Connor, the noted property investment guru :rolleyes: ?

Did you ever consider the fact that things cannot keep increasing forever or did you ever listen to any of the people warning we were in a bubble ?

Did you think it was good value when you bought it ?
Did you think that a couple of years down the line you could sell it on to some other FTB and you could move to somewhere nearer work and family ?

I am sorry if you are in negative equity and you are trapped, but you are looking for someone to blame, just like Eircom investors wanted someone to blame when their shares lost value.

irish_bob

jmayo wrote: »

Yes it was their fault for not dampening down the market, for allowing tax breaks, for allowing the banks to throw out the rule book when lending, but ordinary people bought into it hook line and sinker.
People either just wanted to get on "the ladder" at all costs, some wanted to make a quick buck like their buddies, some wanted to build an empire of buy to lets ?

How could people believe that we could base an economy on construction :eek:
Even worse the government actually believed it, since they based their expenditure on it and that is the real crime of the last 12 years and it is the one that will sink the country.

How could anybody realistically say that we could keep building houses and selling them to each other?

The government of course, the vested interests, along with those that bought into the myth of ever rising houses prices, were very quick to savage the naysayers.
I often got a lecture from developer and investor friends telling me how we would never get anywhere as a country if people listened to the likes of me and the king of naysayers David McWilliams.



Dear God do you believe everything that the government (or any politician) tells you, do you believe every utterance from an economist, who is working for either a finanical institution or estate agency with a vested interest in talking up the market ?
Did you believe the claptrap from the likes of Brendan O'Connor, the noted property investment guru :rolleyes: ?

Did you ever consider the fact that things cannot keep increasing forever or did you ever listen to any of the people warning we were in a bubble ?

Did you think it was good value when you bought it ?
Did you think that a couple of years down the line you could sell it on to some other FTB and you could move to somewhere nearer work and family ?

I am sorry if you are in negative equity and you are trapped, but you are looking for someone to blame, just like Eircom investors wanted someone to blame when their shares lost value.

something that gets my goat is public sector workers who rant on about those that caused the mess , i.e developers , ironic considering the developers ( bad as they were ) generated the revenue that allowed this country to claim the title of europes highest paid public sector , public servants done well out of developers for a long time

francish

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

This is a self fulfilling prophecy - because of the tightness of money, people will spend less, therefore less tax income for the Gov. This will lead to knock on effects of more jobs being lost due to less demand, and the loss of income taxes. the widespread effects go on and on. I've heard people say that it should be more, since it will be cheaper to pay them the dole rather than a wage, but it is a catch 22 situation. They will lose more than the 10K in dole, the PAYE contribution etc plus whatever redundancy package they will have to pay them. It also crushes confidence in the people in the economy

This Government is irresponsible and it is the same people that are being hit all the time - the pension levy etc etc. This country will be brought to its knees unless they try to stimulate the country rather than all the cuts. I read that article above and was struck by a phrase in

Applying your logic above would suggest that we would sovle unemployement crises by increasing public sector. All unproductive staff should be sacked.

Daragh101

irish_bob wrote: »

something that gets my goat is public sector workers who rant on about those that caused the mess , i.e developers , ironic considering the developers ( bad as they were ) generated the revenue that allowed this country to claim the title of europes highest paid public sector , public servants done well out of developers for a long time

not really... while the developers were making millions, public sector workers were getting modest pay rises......also inflation was massive.:)

gurramok

c montgomery wrote: »

I was neither whining or bitching. I was simply stating my opinion. I take responsibility for my actions but i just want it to be acknowledged that thousands of us were misled by the government and economists and will be paying the price for decades.

Look, i was in a similar position to you getting hyped up by the crap of the housing industry.

I nearly bought in 2006 but you know what, i didn't understand the whole bubble thing, i didn't even know what a bubble was back then.

But what opened my eyes was, why should I pay €300,000 for a 1 bed apt?

That was what triggered alarm bells and i said no to buying something like that. I wanted value for money as i'm a child of the 80s where money was valued.

Then i researched the biggest financial decision of what the heck was going on in this country and came to realise it was really one big con perpetuated by those vested interests and i have done my damnest best to convince people in real life and on boards not to buy since using economic arguments.

I do not know a way out for you. There was ramblings recently for those in negative equity to have the ability to take out a personal loan to let them escape.(lets say 20k loan to makeup shortfall for 200k selling price minus 220k mortgage for example). Lets hope they do something for you and tens of thousands of young people like you.

rumour

realcam wrote: »

Have you even read this? Even if you did, you have obviously fallen for the spin then. What can I say?

You have not answered the question. Can you answer it?

What happens if our banks become insolvent,please set aside any opinion on how much bankers should get paid and answer or even consider at the very least, what happens if our banks become insolvent. There is no need to get involved in spin just think about it.

irish_bob

Daragh101 wrote: »

not really... while the developers were making millions, public sector workers were getting modest pay rises......also inflation was massive.:)

modest ????????

7mountpleasant

The one thing that gets me more than anything is the omniprescence of people like david begg and jack o'connor, I have never seen either of them on a ballot sheet. It sickens me when I see these people talking about national recovery plans and getting prime time coverage for their crackpot plans, (begg idea at the start of the downturn to solve the economys woes was to use the national reserve pension fund to increase the level of public expenditure!. Leave them strike , I believe even they must know that there is no public support for the industial action by the protected sectors of society leeching of thier fellow citizens.

ParkRunner

If the majority of these cuts are implemented, which I believe they will, it will only be the end of the beginning. The report didn't touch capital expenditure projects but once the current expenditure has been snipped it is inevitable that some of the grander projects will have to be scrapped, meaning yet more job losses.

The majority of the 17,000+ leaving the public sector will be higher paid experienced staff meaning a loss of corporate knowledge e.g. high ranking gardai with invaluable knowledge of their local district. As a civil servant I think it should be easier to fire permanent public servants as there are some (not many) who know there is no prospect of being fired and are happy to do what they do, although there is no chance of promotion for them and they are denied an increment. You can be sure too that they will not be the ones who will take voluntary redundancy. We were assured yesterday that no one will be fired although some will be transferred to Departments like Social Welfare even though we are already under-staffed.

Hard working dedicated public servants are being unfairly punished with an extra workload due to a loss of staff, significant pay-cuts, no prospect of promotion and an on-going bashing by the media. Any further pay cuts must be directed at the highest paid only if there is to be any fairness in the path out of this recession. We are all only too aware of what is happening in the private sector with job losses and pay cuts and we are aware of the state of the public finances, it has been shoved down our throats repeatedly. A sustained campaign of public sector cuts without the necessary stimulus is not going to solve anything however. If as much effort was put into our economic recovery as is being put into the battle of worker v worker it would be a much easier ride for everyone.

irish_bob

7mountpleasant wrote: »

The one thing that gets me more than anything is the omniprescence of people like david begg and jack o'connor, I have never seen either of them on a ballot sheet. It sickens me when I see these people talking about national recovery plans and getting prime time coverage for their crackpot plans, (begg idea at the start of the downturn to solve the economys woes was to use the national reserve pension fund to increase the level of public expenditure!. Leave them strike , I believe even they must know that there is no public support for the industial action by the protected sectors of society leeching of thier fellow citizens.

its is quite extrordinary the level of reverence they get from both our elected leaders and the media

irish_bob

EF wrote: »

If the majority of these cuts are implemented, which I believe they will, it will only be the end of the beginning. The report didn't touch capital expenditure projects but once the current expenditure has been snipped it is inevitable that some of the grander projects will have to be scrapped, meaning yet more job losses.

The majority of the 17,000+ leaving the public sector will be higher paid experienced staff meaning a loss of corporate knowledge e.g. high ranking gardai with invaluable knowledge of their local district. As a civil servant I think it should be easier to fire permanent public servants as there are some (not many) who know there is no prospect of being fired and are happy to do what they do, although there is no chance of promotion for them and they are denied an increment. You can be sure too that they will not be the ones who will take voluntary redundancy. We were assured yesterday that no one will be fired although some will be transferred to Departments like Social Welfare even though we are already under-staffed.

Hard working dedicated public servants are being unfairly punished with an extra workload due to a loss of staff, significant pay-cuts, no prospect of promotion and an on-going bashing by the media. Any further pay cuts must be directed at the highest paid only if there is to be any fairness in the path out of this recession. We are all only too aware of what is happening in the private sector with job losses and pay cuts and we are aware of the state of the public finances, it has been shoved down our throats repeatedly. A sustained campaign of public sector cuts without the necessary stimulus is not going to solve anything however. If as much effort was put into our economic recovery as is being put into the battle of worker v worker it would be a much easier ride for everyone.

the worker v worker is a strawman invented by the public sector unions , luckily most in the wider community are aware of it

public servants are over paid in comparison to their private sector counterparts at every level , this must change , we can no longer afford to pay a clerical officer who,s duties dont extend beyond answering phones , using a photo copier and posting mail close over 30 grand a year

P. Breathnach

irish_bob wrote: »

its is quite extrordinary the level of reverence they get from both our elected leaders and the media

It's even more extraordinary how much vituperation they get from others.

ParkRunner

irish_bob wrote: »

the worker v worker is a strawman invented by the public sector unions , luckily most in the wider community are aware of it

public servants are over paid in comparison to their private sector counterparts at every level , this must change , we can no longer afford to pay a clerical officer who,s duties dont extend beyond answering phones , using a photo copier and posting mail close over 30 grand a year

There are hardly any workers who just deal with post, answer the phone and photocopy and their take home pay is not much greater than that which would be available from social welfare!

7mountpleasant

EF wrote: »

Hard working dedicated public servants are being unfairly punished with an extra workload due to a loss of staff, significant pay-cuts, no prospect of promotion and an on-going bashing by the media. Any further pay cuts must be directed at the highest paid only if there is to be any fairness in the path out of this recession. We are all only too aware of what is happening in the private sector with job losses and pay cuts and we are aware of the state of the public finances, it has been shoved down our throats repeatedly. A sustained campaign of public sector cuts without the necessary stimulus is not going to solve anything however. If as much effort was put into our economic recovery as is being put into the battle of worker v worker it would be a much easier ride for everyone.

This idea that bankers , politicians and civil service madarins should take all the pain is great populisim but the lack of comprehension of the public sector to what we are going through is ridicilious. It quite simply is not enough, the rank and file of the public sector earns significantly more that their private sector counterparts not just the mandarins, in a deflationary enviroment this only increases. While I don't wish a redundancy or a pay cut on anyone we as a country have no choice , if we continue with the current levels of public sector pay (not even to mention this stimulus you ask for) the proportion of the public purse dedicated to meeting our debt obligations will quite simply break us.

Some people have to stop looking at the current situation through rose tinted self interested glasses, this everybody needs to take a hit but I'm different because... stuff is sickening and I mean sickening to listen too. You speak of fairness, where is the fairness in one section of society being held to ransom to maintain the standards of another in the midst of a resscession. Stop just stop and see what is happening , look around you and see the real pain that people are putting up with, people who can't see a way out of this , who have lost everything and think of how ridicilious the coomplaints of civil servants or electricians looking for an 11% pay hike seem. The problem with this country is that there is just too many people thinking me and and not we.

ParkRunner

7mountpleasant wrote: »

This idea that bankers , politicians and civil service madarins should take all the pain is great populisim but the lack of comprehension of the public sector to what we are going through is ridicilious. It quite simply is not enough, the rank and file of the public sector earns significantly more that their private sector counterparts not just the mandarins, in a deflationary enviroment this only increases. While I don't wish a redundancy or a pay cut on anyone we as a country have no choice , if we continue with the current levels of public sector pay (not even to mention this stimulus you ask for) the proportion of the public purse dedicated to meeting our debt obligations will quite simply break us.

Some people have to stop looking at the current situation through rose tinted self interested glasses, this everybody needs to take a hit but I'm different because... stuff is sickening and I mean sickening to listen too. You speak of fairness, where is the fairness in one section of society being held to ransom to maintain the standards of another in the midst of a resscession. Stop just stop and see what is happening , look around you and see the real pain that people are putting up with, people who can't see a way out of this , who have lost everything and think of how ridicilious the coomplaints of civil servants or electricians looking for an 11% pay hike seem. The problem with this country is that there is just too many people thinking me and and not we.

I said myself that it should be easier to fire public servants who are not performing and my proposal for fairness is that those who can afford to pay the most do so. But the lower paid are being disproportionately hit in my opinion.
I am well aware of what is happening..my uncle lost his job with SR Technics, some of my friends have gone onto interest only payments on their vast mortgage repayments (god help them when interest rates rise) and many are struggling to just pay the bills and put food on the table. I don't know of any civil servant looking for a payrise. Towards 2016 is in the bin at this stage and the only payrises to be found are in the private sector

Firetrap

EF wrote: »

There are hardly any workers who just deal with post, answer the phone and photocopy and their take home pay is not much greater than that which would be available from social welfare!

What do clerical officers do? I assume the frontline staff dealing with dole queues, for example, are clerical officers

P. Breathnach

7mountpleasant wrote: »

This idea that bankers , politicians and civil service madarins should take all the pain is great populisim but the lack of comprehension of the public sector to what we are going through is ridicilious.

Agreed. It is a lack of comprehension that is also to be found in the private sector.

It quite simply is not enough, the rank and file of the public sector earns significantly more that their private sector counterparts not just the mandarins, in a deflationary enviroment this only increases.

Also agreed. It is a problem that some people are exaggerating the differential (see the 48% thread). That moves things away from being a considered discussion.

While I don't wish a redundancy or a pay cut on anyone we as a country have no choice , if we continue with the current levels of public sector pay (not even to mention this stimulus you ask for) the proportion of the public purse dedicated to meeting our debt obligations will quite simply break us.

It might be better to set the issue of public sector pay in a fuller context, as one component of a set of corrective measures. Some public service people see themselves as being scapegoated, and that does not lead to calm discussion. The postings of a few individuals here add to that sense among public service people that they need to circle the wagons. While there are people who oppose any of the pain falling on them, there are others whose strategy is to select others on whom to impose the pain; it's the other side of the same coin.

Some people have to stop looking at the current situation through rose tinted self interested glasses, this everybody needs to take a hit but I'm different because... stuff is sickening and I mean sickening to listen too. You speak of fairness, where is the fairness in one section of society being held to ransom to maintain the standards of another in the midst of a resscession. Stop just stop and see what is happening , look around you and see the real pain that people are putting up with, people who can't see a way out of this , who have lost everything and think of how ridicilious the coomplaints of civil servants or electricians looking for an 11% pay hike seem. The problem with this country is that there is just too many people thinking me and and not we.

That's how life is. People don't like taking a hit. And when some people are taking a hit, they see others getting away unscathed. Yes, many in the private sector have taken a hit, the biggest hits falling on those who have lost their jobs or whose businesses have failed. But there are many others who are doing as well as ever. I know some, and I am sure that you know some. So we are in a period of re-adjustment and much pain for people, and fingers will be pointed. There is no reasonable prospect that the adjustment will happen with a sense of resignation and quiet dignity. It's going to be noisy and messy. But it has to be done.

hatrickpatrick

irish_bob wrote: »

i explained the logic of it to you on the 1st page , if you fire a civil servant whos is on a wage of 25 k , you save close to 10 k for the exchequer as they are then paid 11 k in dole ( 204 per week ) and about 4k more in other unemployment benefits , accomodation allowance , medical card etc , by your logic , the goverment should employ all 300 thousand from the private sector who have lost thier jobs as that would mean not having to pay them dole , dont you get it , paying a civil sevant 25 k from the public finances is much more expensive than paying them 15 k in social wellfare

But the key question is, are the public finances genuinely more important right now than actually trying to get business going again in this economy? As George Lee said in his opening speech, "if you fix the people's problems and the business's problems, the banks and the public finances will benefit from that". You cannot end a recession by putting further strains on whatever little business there still is going on here. Those people who get laid off are obviously not going to be spending very much money once they have none coming in. The higher unemployment gets, the less circulation there will be in the economy. What is the natural reaction of any business to a situation in which the market it can sell it's product to is shrinking and they can't afford to cut prices any further? Cut staff. this creates a vicious cycle which ultimately leads to the businesses running out of money and leaving the country to find somewhere cheaper. Look at Intel for example...

We have a stark decision - which is the more urgent concern? Stabilizing the public finances or restoring confidence enough to get an economy moving again? And I believe it's the latter - if we continue with this government's policy of taxing and cutting people, whatever savings they make through that will be offset by the huge losses businesses will incur because of rising unemployment.

francish

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

But the key question is, are the public finances genuinely more important right now than actually trying to get business going again in this economy? As George Lee said in his opening speech, "if you fix the people's problems and the business's problems, the banks and the public finances will benefit from that". You cannot end a recession by putting further strains on whatever little business there still is going on here. Those people who get laid off are obviously not going to be spending very much money once they have none coming in. The higher unemployment gets, the less circulation there will be in the economy. What is the natural reaction of any business to a situation in which the market it can sell it's product to is shrinking and they can't afford to cut prices any further? Cut staff. this creates a vicious cycle which ultimately leads to the businesses running out of money and leaving the country to find somewhere cheaper. Look at Intel for example...

We have a stark decision - which is the more urgent concern? Stabilizing the public finances or restoring confidence enough to get an economy moving again? And I believe it's the latter - if we continue with this government's policy of taxing and cutting people, whatever savings they make through that will be offset by the huge losses businesses will incur because of rising unemployment.

If the Irish government dont sort out the public finances, others will. It's that simple. It is not an option should we cut or should we not cut. I keep repeating this message but people still dont seem to understand.

ParkRunner

Firetrap wrote: »

What do clerical officers do? I assume the frontline staff dealing with dole queues, for example, are clerical officers

Yes some of them would be anyway. One CO could be doing something very different to another CO depending on what Department they are in and what section in that Department they are in.

e.g. paying invoices and dealing with creditors, case processing of all sorts of applications to be signed off by management, market research and report preparation, preparing answers for parliamentary questions/Freedom of Information requests, compiling information for auditor queries, preparing documents for the many legal challenges taken against the State, solving IT problems throughout the networks, etc. and the usual tasks of filing, photcopying, answering phones, dealing with post, maintaining databases and other general admin work.

irish_bob

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

But the key question is, are the public finances genuinely more important right now than actually trying to get business going again in this economy? As George Lee said in his opening speech, "if you fix the people's problems and the business's problems, the banks and the public finances will benefit from that". You cannot end a recession by putting further strains on whatever little business there still is going on here. Those people who get laid off are obviously not going to be spending very much money once they have none coming in. The higher unemployment gets, the less circulation there will be in the economy. What is the natural reaction of any business to a situation in which the market it can sell it's product to is shrinking and they can't afford to cut prices any further? Cut staff. this creates a vicious cycle which ultimately leads to the businesses running out of money and leaving the country to find somewhere cheaper. Look at Intel for example...

We have a stark decision - which is the more urgent concern? Stabilizing the public finances or restoring confidence enough to get an economy moving again? And I believe it's the latter - if we continue with this government's policy of taxing and cutting people, whatever savings they make through that will be offset by the huge losses businesses will incur because of rising unemployment.

what has sacking thousands of civil servants who are not needed got to do with business , they eat the taxes business create

irish_bob

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

But the key question is, are the public finances genuinely more important right now than actually trying to get business going again in this economy? As George Lee said in his opening speech, "if you fix the people's problems and the business's problems, the banks and the public finances will benefit from that". You cannot end a recession by putting further strains on whatever little business there still is going on here. Those people who get laid off are obviously not going to be spending very much money once they have none coming in. The higher unemployment gets, the less circulation there will be in the economy. What is the natural reaction of any business to a situation in which the market it can sell it's product to is shrinking and they can't afford to cut prices any further? Cut staff. this creates a vicious cycle which ultimately leads to the businesses running out of money and leaving the country to find somewhere cheaper. Look at Intel for example...

We have a stark decision - which is the more urgent concern? Stabilizing the public finances or restoring confidence enough to get an economy moving again? And I believe it's the latter - if we continue with this government's policy of taxing and cutting people, whatever savings they make through that will be offset by the huge losses businesses will incur because of rising unemployment.

what has sacking thousands of civil servants who are not needed got to do with business , they eat the taxes business create , my point was better them eating 15k a year in social wellfare than over 25 k like they are now

newname

a clerical officer who,s duties dont extend beyond answering phones , using a photo copier and posting mail

Irish bob, this description is utter rubbish. You obviously have never worked in the public service before.

I'd like to see what state the country was in if every clerical officer in the PS decided to do nothing more than answer phones, photocopy and post mail.

You have developed serious contempt for public service workers, most of whom put in an honest days work.

7mountpleasant

irish_bob wrote: »

what has sacking thousands of civil servants who are not needed got to do with business , they eat the taxes business create , my point was better them eating 15k a year in social wellfare than over 25 k like they are now

the main problem with that is that you assume that they will all be on the dole indefintilely, if you let say 50000 go , the vast majority of them will go straight to the dole but , but by making the tough descisions now we are giving our economy a chance to recover so that at some point in the future they are participating in the private sector and positively contributing to the nations ecomomic health. its essentially a small short term for the exchequor followed by a big long term gain and hopefully a puublic sector fit for purpose with terms and conditions that are fair to not only its employees but also to society as a whole,

itarumaa

MaryFeeney80 wrote: »

Yeah but the amount of money earned is totally irrelevant when everything costs a bomb. And the social benifits in Finland are huge. If you get sick there, you don' pay a penny and it is the best health service in the world. That's the thing that annoys me the most, we pay massive taxes and the cost of living is ridiculous yet we get bugger all in return.

Well, as a Finn who spend there around 27 years before coming to Ireland, nothing that just said is actually true.

50% rule is quite close here, so in Ireland you pay 50% less tax and you get 50% more money if you don't have a job.

If you are unemployed in Finland, you get 380e / month + 80% of the rent (to a limit)
In here you get 816e / month and 100% of the rent (to a limit I think?)

If your salary is about 30 000 / year you pay 30% tax in Finland, in here I think I pay a bit over 10%

So where are those high taxes that Irish people pay? Accordingly to my understanding Ireland has one of the lowest tax in the whole Europe.

I am not 100% about the dole system in Ireland tough, because I have never used it, but I guess I am quite correct here.