17,000 job cuts proposed... Does this sound like insanity to anyone else?

Daragh101 · 18-07-2009 6:02pm

irish_bob wrote: »

modest ????????

thats what i said!!

ninty9er · 18-07-2009 8:25pm

To take a hypothetical of exactly 450,000 people on the dole claiming the full amount each week, the bill is currently €92.25m weekly. If the 5% cut is imposed and 17,000 extra people added, the weekly cost would still be about €1m less or €61m over the course of the year ceteris paribus, on top of the savings on salaries of civil and public servants.

Of course in real life those figures don't compute because the number of people on the live register is constantly in flux.

CatacombKittens · 18-07-2009 8:33pm

ninty9er wrote: »

To take a hypothetical of exactly 450,000 people on the dole claiming the full amount each week, the bill is currently €92.25m weekly. If the 5% cut is imposed and 17,000 extra people added, the weekly cost would still be about €1m less or €61m over the course of the year ceteris paribus, on top of the savings on salaries of civil and public servants.

Of course in real life those figures don't compute because the number of people on the live register is constantly in flux.

This doesn't take into account how reduced spending will affect the economy. More people will go up north, and more people will arbitarily "save up" what they can.

irish_bob · 18-07-2009 9:48pm

7mountpleasant wrote: »

the main problem with that is that you assume that they will all be on the dole indefintilely, if you let say 50000 go , the vast majority of them will go straight to the dole but , but by making the tough descisions now we are giving our economy a chance to recover so that at some point in the future they are participating in the private sector and positively contributing to the nations ecomomic health. its essentially a small short term for the exchequor followed by a big long term gain and hopefully a puublic sector fit for purpose with terms and conditions that are fair to not only its employees but also to society as a whole,

i agree with your post , if the sacked surplus to requirement civil servants regain employment in the private sector , fantastic

irish_bob · 18-07-2009 9:49pm

CatacombKittens wrote: »

This doesn't take into account how reduced spending will affect the economy. More people will go up north, and more people will arbitarily "save up" what they can.

so what your saying is civil servants dont shop up north

irish_bob · 18-07-2009 9:51pm

itarumaa wrote: »

Well, as a Finn who spend there around 27 years before coming to Ireland, nothing that just said is actually true.

50% rule is quite close here, so in Ireland you pay 50% less tax and you get 50% more money if you don't have a job.

If you are unemployed in Finland, you get 380e / month + 80% of the rent (to a limit)
In here you get 816e / month and 100% of the rent (to a limit I think?)

If your salary is about 30 000 / year you pay 30% tax in Finland, in here I think I pay a bit over 10%

So where are those high taxes that Irish people pay? Accordingly to my understanding Ireland has one of the lowest tax in the whole Europe.

I am not 100% about the dole system in Ireland tough, because I have never used it, but I guess I am quite correct here.

irish public sector workers are much higher paid then thier counterparts in finland , teachers in ireland are paid 55% more than in finland , most of the money spent on the public sector goes on wages

irish_bob · 18-07-2009 9:52pm

Daragh101 wrote: »

thats what i said!!

believe it , if ya like

ParkRunner · 18-07-2009 10:10pm

irish_bob wrote: »

i agree with your post , if the sacked surplus to requirement civil servants regain employment in the private sector , fantastic

Public sector workers are already hated enough by the private sector, without taking their jobs too

Firetrap · 18-07-2009 11:09pm

EF wrote: »

Public sector workers are already hated enough by the private sector, without taking their jobs too

They've also got horns on their heads, spiky tails and carry pitchforks. They're not living human beings with families and mortgages and worries like the rest of you you know :rolleyes:

the_syco · 18-07-2009 11:25pm

EF wrote: »

There are hardly any workers who just deal with post, answer the phone and photocopy and their take home pay is not much greater than that which would be available from social welfare!

Their starting pay will still be €4000 more than those on minimum wage in the private sector... and most who start on minimum wage don't get wage increases, never mind yearly increases for just "being there".

Firetrap · 19-07-2009 12:48am

That won't be a problem after December's budget.

Daragh101 · 19-07-2009 4:13am

irish_bob wrote: »

believe it , if ya like

what do you mean its true................
salary rises for teachers,nurses etc werent great in the good days if you take into account inflation etc... there the real loosers of all this .....the big proberty developers are still rich are they not....its not there money theve lost...IDIOT...prick:eek:

ParkRunner · 19-07-2009 9:40am

the_syco wrote: »

Their starting pay will still be €4000 more than those on minimum wage in the private sector... and most who start on minimum wage don't get wage increases, never mind yearly increases for just "being there".

It's unlikely that an employer like that will retain their staff for very long if the employee has any ambition or a half decent cv. I worked in retail for 5 years and the pay was decent, especially with overtime, which isn't available to the majority of non-frontline staff in the public sector.

Boskowski · 19-07-2009 10:58am

rumour wrote: »

You have not answered the question. Can you answer it?

What happens if our banks become insolvent,please set aside any opinion on how much bankers should get paid and answer or even consider at the very least, what happens if our banks become insolvent. There is no need to get involved in spin just think about it.

The article provided in the link merely suggests that the wrong strategy was chosen and that an alternative is available. It did not suggest 'let the banks go bankrupt'. It also suggests that not for all banks affected the same strategy should have been applied as some banks are more people/deposit oriented while others are business banks and the investment provided by them was risky by nature and why should we eliminate the risks in retrospect now that things have gone sour?
It's just the usual bull of privatizing gains and socializing losses. We hardly would have got billions from same banks had they continued to make huge profits, but yet we're supposed to pick up the bill now that they didn't.

Sorry, but if the answer suggests that the poster didn't read the article , why is it up to me to bring more facts that are - most likely - not going to be read?

greener&leaner · 19-07-2009 11:02am

Daragh101 wrote: »

what do you mean its true................
salary rises for teachers,nurses etc werent great in the good days if you take into account inflation etc... there the real loosers of all this .....the big proberty developers are still rich are they not....its not there money theve lost...IDIOT...prick:eek:

The annual pay rises they get exclude inflation.
They get inflation as well.

A teacher on pt 4 of the common basic scale in 2007, would have been getting E34,330 +4938+1238 (hons degrees), two years later on pt 6 they are getting E39,030+5177+1301.

E40,506 to E45,508, 10% in two years.

I call that a decent pay rise for doing exactly the same job.
In these economic times, it's insanity.

(point 4 is one year qualified)

7mountpleasant · 19-07-2009 11:18am

Good addition to the debate here , really brings home some of the absolute ridicilious stuff out of some people on this forum, a liitle part of me nearly wishes that that IMF would step in , to impose the nesscessary cuts over the heads of these me feiners.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/reform-is-not-a-bargaining-tool-its-an-imperative-for-survival-1829607.html

P. Breathnach · 19-07-2009 11:35am

7mountpleasant wrote: »

Good addition to the debate here , really brings home some of the absolute ridicilious stuff out of some people on this forum, a liitle part of me nearly wishes that that IMF would step in , to impose the nesscessary cuts over the heads of these me feiners.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/reform-is-not-a-bargaining-tool-its-an-imperative-for-survival-1829607.html

I saw Brendan O'Connor's name on the byline, and that prepared me for what followed: another rant. I can come here to read rants.

ChowChow · 19-07-2009 12:17pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I saw Brendan O'Connor's name on the byline, and that prepared me for what followed: another rant. I can come here to read rants.

Never mind Brendan O'Connor, the independent is completely and utterly incapable of any balanced reporting on public sector issues. The establishment of NAMA has underlined the number one cause of our economic difficulties -- not public sector inefficiencies (yes this does need to be looked at) -- but the debt that has accrued from reckless lending to build, buy and sell houses cheered on by FF and the Irish media in general. The Indo has focused almost exclusively on P.S. reform to an almost hysterical level while downplaying the threat of NAMA (Indo reporting on NAMA vs Irish Times). Think about who the owners of Independent news and Media are and what their agenda might be?

irish_bob · 19-07-2009 12:17pm

Daragh101 wrote: »

what do you mean its true................
salary rises for teachers,nurses etc werent great in the good days if you take into account inflation etc... there the real loosers of all this .....the big proberty developers are still rich are they not....its not there money theve lost...IDIOT...prick:eek:

your out of your mind if you think that , teachers and nurses in this country are the highest paid in europe , teachers are 55% better paid than in finland and nurses are more than 30% better paid than in the uk , both of those countries are richer than ireland , both of those proffesions here need at least a 15% pay cut on top of the levys introduced and dont get me started about the police here , their on redicolous wages

irish_bob · 19-07-2009 12:19pm

ChowChow wrote: »

Never mind Brendan O'Connor, the independent is completely and utterly incapable of any balanced reporting on public sector issues. The establishment of NAMA has underlined the number one cause of our economic difficulties -- not public sector inefficiencies (yes this does need to be looked at) -- but the debt that has accrued from reckless lending to build, buy and sell houses cheered on by FF and the Irish media in general. The Indo has focused almost exclusively on P.S. reform to an almost hysterical level while downplaying the threat of NAMA (Indo reporting on NAMA vs Irish Times). Think about who the owners of Independent news and Media are and what their agenda might be?

how come thier is a problem with independant newspaper being critical of the public sector yet no problem with RTE and the irish times being soft on the public sector , are the private sector not allowed have one voice

ChowChow · 19-07-2009 12:31pm

irish_bob wrote: »

how come thier is a problem with independant newspaper being critical of the public sector yet no problem with RTE and the irish times being soft on the public sector , are the private sector not allowed have one voice

Eh what? RTE have had numerous current affairs programmes dealing with issues such as the HSE, public sector reform and public sector pensions that have been very critical (Prime Time and Morning Ireland are two that immediately spring to mind). The Irish Times unlike the bigoted Independent is not one sided in its reporting either (recent example here).

P. Breathnach · 19-07-2009 12:38pm

irish_bob wrote: »

your out of your mind if you think that , teachers and nurses in this country are the highest paid in europe , teachers are 55% better paid than in finland and nurses are more than 30% better paid than in the uk , both of those countries are richer than ireland , both of those proffesions here need at least a 15% pay cut on top of the levys introduced and dont get me started about the police here , their on redicolous wages

The top of the scale for Irish teachers in 2006 was €55162; for Finnish teachers it was €53867. In both countries, there are arrangements under which teachers get payments over and above the basic scale, but the amounts of such payments are not given. [Source: OECD, Education at a Glance 2008. See http://www.oecd.org/document/9/0,3343,en_2649_39263238_41266761_1_1_1_1,00.html ]. I don't know where I might find solid comparative data on pay in nursing or policing. Perhaps irish_bob will produce evidence to back up his claims.

irish_bob · 19-07-2009 1:43pm

ChowChow wrote: »

Eh what? RTE have had numerous current affairs programmes dealing with issues such as the HSE, public sector reform and public sector pensions that have been very critical (Prime Time and Morning Ireland are two that immediately spring to mind). The Irish Times unlike the bigoted Independent is not one sided in its reporting either (recent example here).

how does criticising the public sector make one a bigot , i realise some posters on certain forums have compared the criticsm of public servants to that of the jewish experience in poland circa 1938 but still

gurramok · 19-07-2009 3:54pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The top of the scale for Irish teachers in 2006 was €55162; for Finnish teachers it was €53867. In both countries, there are arrangements under which teachers get payments over and above the basic scale, but the amounts of such payments are not given. [Source: OECD, Education at a Glance 2008. See http://www.oecd.org/document/9/0,3343,en_2649_39263238_41266761_1_1_1_1,00.html ]. I don't know where I might find solid comparative data on pay in nursing or policing. Perhaps irish_bob will produce evidence to back up his claims.

Here's the Finnish nurses.
http://www.tmb.ie/exodus/news.asp?id=39363

The Tehy union had demanded a 24-percent wage increase over a period of two and a half years, boosting the minimum wage to between 1,990 and 2,420 euros (2,925-3,560 dollars)

They are halfway through their pay rises so they are still less than Irish nurses http://www.dohc.ie/publications/pdf/salary_scales_mar2008.pdf

P. Breathnach · 19-07-2009 4:27pm

gurramok wrote: »

Here's the Finnish nurses.
http://www.tmb.ie/exodus/news.asp?id=39363

They are halfway through their pay rises so they are still less than Irish nurses http://www.dohc.ie/publications/pdf/salary_scales_mar2008.pdf

Thanks for digging that much out, but the comparison irish_bob threw in was between Irish and British nurses.

I really think it is incumbent on him to back his claims up. He backed of his claims about differences between pay for Teachers in Ireland and in France, but has persisted with other unsubstantiated claims. We should not have to spend time and effort on stuff like this.

So how about it, irish_bob? Back up your claims, or withdraw them. Have you got it in you to admit that you were wrong?

Sponge Bob · 19-07-2009 4:47pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The top of the scale for Irish teachers in 2006 was €55162; for Finnish teachers it was €53867./quote]

The actual figures are here

http://ocde.p4.siteinternet.com/publications/doifiles/962008041P1G025.xls

P Breathnach quoted Salary Top of Scale on MINIMUM training for secondary teachers .

That would be top of the scale with a pass degree and a pass h dip in most cases or a pass from woodwork teaching or domestic science teaching which do not come with a h dip . The figures are PPP adjusted to take purchasing power in that country into account .

Look at Korea and Luxembourg !

Australia 43 289
Austria 57 141
Belgium (Fl.) 49 392
Belgium (Fr.) 47 506
Czech Republic 28 974
Denmark 39 898
England 43 058
Finland 48 192
France 48 882
Germany 53 696
Greece 38 525
Hungary 19 839
Iceland 32 705
Ireland 55 132
Italy 39 162
Japan 62 645
Korea 84 139
Luxembourg 125 895
Mexico 38 325
Netherlands 51 705
New Zealand 36 602
Norway 38 887
Poland m
Portugal 51 552
Scotland 47 050
Slovak Republic m
Spain 52 691
Sweden 36 130
Switzerland 72 993
Turkey a
United States m

OECD average 49 778
EU19 average 49 180

P. Breathnach · 19-07-2009 5:10pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The actual figures are here

http://ocde.p4.siteinternet.com/publications/doifiles/962008041P1G025.xls

P Breathnach quoted Salary Top of Scale on MINIMUM training for secondary teachers .... The figures are PPP adjusted to take purchasing power in that country into account ....

Thank you for drawing attention to my mistake. In fact, the rates are converted to USD equivalents using PPP. My apologies to all who were misled by my earlier posting.

It probably makes for a more meaningful comparison than I had supposed I was showing people.

gurramok · 19-07-2009 5:11pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Thanks for digging that much out, but the comparison irish_bob threw in was between Irish and British nurses.

British nurses should be easier to find.

http://www.workgateways.com/job-medical-nursing.html#earn

The salary of a registered nurse is structured in a similar way to most other countries.

In the UK nurses are graded in seniority from grade A to grade I, with registered nurses beginning at grade D. Newly registered nurses can expect to start on a salary of around £17,000 which can increase to up to £30,000 at the most senior level I.

The new NHS Agenda for Change pay system is divided into nine pay bands, with several pay increments within each band. Entry level nurses currently begin in band five with the most senior nursing positions falling in band eight. Levels of pay increase as you gain experience and progress through the increments in each band.

Private hospitals usually pay higher rates than NHS facilities, but in both environments you can expect a living allowance if you are situated in London (due to the higher cost of living in the capital) that can be up to £4,000 p.a. in addition to your salary as a registered nurse.

The new Agenda for Change system of pay is currently only being implemented in NHS facilities but is expected to influence rates of pay outside the national system in the future.

British nurses seem to earn very low wages in comparison to their Irish counterparts, agree?

Firetrap · 19-07-2009 5:26pm

What are the wages of Irish private sector workers in comparison to the UK? I'm not for one minute defending public sector wages but this is an extremely expensive country to live in. I would certainly hope that if many people's wages are getting a haircut, that everything else will get a haircut too. Doctors, dentists, groceries, car prices.

P. Breathnach · 19-07-2009 6:29pm

gurramok wrote: »

British nurses should be easier to find.

http://www.workgateways.com/job-medical-nursing.html#earn

British nurses seem to earn very low wages in comparison to their Irish counterparts, agree?

It certainly looks like it. The number of categories and rates applicable in Ireland is a bit confusing. It looks like the rate is from €31k to €45k for nurses without additional qualifications or responsibilities. The UK rate seems to range from £17k to £30k (+ London allowance if applicable).

17,000 job cuts proposed... Does this sound like insanity to anyone else?

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