17,000 job cuts proposed... Does this sound like insanity to anyone else?

greener&leaner · 19-07-2009 6:34pm

Firetrap wrote: »

What are the wages of Irish private sector workers in comparison to the UK? I'm not for one minute defending public sector wages but this is an extremely expensive country to live in. I would certainly hope that if many people's wages are getting a haircut, that everything else will get a haircut too. Doctors, dentists, groceries, car prices.

In terms of purchasing power etc. A salary of E50K is approximately equivalent to a salary of £30K in my experience. I do agree that comparing salaries at current exchange rates is a bit meaningless, however the average wage of a Full Time Equivalent nurse in this country is in the region of E56,000 a year when you take the shift allowances etc. into account.

Daragh101 · 19-07-2009 8:07pm

irish_bob wrote: »

your out of your mind if you think that , teachers and nurses in this country are the highest paid in europe , teachers are 55% better paid than in finland and nurses are more than 30% better paid than in the uk , both of those countries are richer than ireland , both of those proffesions here need at least a 15% pay cut on top of the levys introduced and dont get me started about the police here , their on redicolous wages

for example a nurse can do almost the same job as a doc, and be paid a fraction of the wage.....
nurses have highly difficult jobs and a not compensated for it....
80euro for 7 hours work after tax for a qualified person is ridiculas

irish_bob · 19-07-2009 8:14pm

Firetrap wrote: »

What are the wages of Irish private sector workers in comparison to the UK? I'm not for one minute defending public sector wages but this is an extremely expensive country to live in. I would certainly hope that if many people's wages are getting a haircut, that everything else will get a haircut too. Doctors, dentists, groceries, car prices.

ireland is a less wealthy country than the uk , our mistake in this country was thinking debt was equal to wealth , the cost of living will come down , the market will see to that although GP,s will be the last to reduce their prices , business and retail have to keep thier goods and services compatible with the level of purchasing power the customer has

Sponge Bob · 19-07-2009 8:14pm

Don't forget that strange shift allowances and local arrangements in hospitals are not published in these international tables .

Same with teachers, a teacher of 15 years experience would most likely earn the following IN ADDITION to the OECD figures.

These allowances are peculiar to Ireland !!!! ( A Point on the scale is not always a year , sometimes its 3 a year and sometimes 1 in 3 years )

Source .

http://www.asti.ie/payandcon.htm#1

I assume 15 years experience is point 20 on the scale . €55,915 . I may be wrong on the point 20 bit but not too wrong , OK

1. Honours Degree or Postgrad Masters + €3,300
2. Honours H Dip + €700
3. 'Special' Post of responsibility + €4000
4. Gaeltacht Allowance + €3223
5. Island Allowance . + €1940

Thats about €13k a year on top of the OECD figures !

irish_bob · 19-07-2009 8:15pm

Daragh101 wrote: »

for example a nurse can do almost the same job as a doc, and be paid a fraction of the wage.....
nurses have highly difficult jobs and a not compensated for it....
80euro for 7 hours work after tax for a qualified person is ridiculas

your living in LA LA land

P. Breathnach · 19-07-2009 8:20pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

... Same with teachers, a teacher of 15 years experience would most likely earn the following IN ADDITION to the OECD figures.
...
These allowances are peculiar to Ireland !!!!...

I didn't go through all the countries listed in the OECD report, but both France and Finland have systems for paying teachers various amounts in addition to the basic scale. So while a particular set of arrangements might be peculiar to Ireland, other states also have arrangements for extra remuneration that are peculiar to them.

P. Breathnach · 19-07-2009 8:24pm

irish_bob wrote: »

your living in LA LA land

Don't invest your effort into making posts like that. I suggest that you put some work into backing up the claims you made about pay differentials between some in the Irish public service and their cognates in other countries.

You wouldn't like us to think that you were living in La-la Land, would you?

irish_bob · 19-07-2009 9:16pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Don't invest your effort into making posts like that. I suggest that you put some work into backing up the claims you made about pay differentials between some in the Irish public service and their cognates in other countries.

You wouldn't like us to think that you were living in La-la Land, would you?

darragh claims nurses are not paid enough despite them being the highest paid nurses in europe , this at a time of deflation in an economy that may have to be rescued by the IMF , is that enough back up for you

P. Breathnach · 19-07-2009 9:36pm

irish_bob wrote: »

darragh claims nurses are not paid enough despite them being the highest paid nurses in europe , this at a time of deflation in an economy that may have to be rescued by the IMF , is that enough back up for you

No. You have posted what looked, on the surface, like measured facts: you gave percentages. I have found and posted data that seems to refute your claims. Surely it is appropriate that you now back up what you said by pointing us to an authoritative source. Or should I infer that you were making things up?

greener&leaner · 19-07-2009 9:44pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Don't invest your effort into making posts like that. I suggest that you put some work into backing up the claims you made about pay differentials between some in the Irish public service and their cognates in other countries.

You wouldn't like us to think that you were living in La-la Land, would you?

If he thinks that is a nurses take home pay, then he is living in La la land.
The starting pay for a staff nurse is E31,875 per year.
The hourly rate for that is E16.29 (following INO guidelines, divide by 52.18 and 37.5 to get hourly rate)

To come out with E80 at the end of a 7 hour shift (E11.42/hr) they would be paying a tax rate of 30% on their entire wage, something that doesn't happen at that wage level. In fact if you put it into the tax calculator here http://taxcalc.eu/ and tick the public service levy box, you see that for a 37.5hr week they take home € 485.20 or E12.94/hour or E90 for an eight hour shift.
That's as a newly qualified graduate, with no allowance for overtime/saturday working/evening working/night working/sunday working etc. It doesn't even take into account holidays which would add another 5%-10% to the per hour rate.

So even in the worst paid year as a nurse, that's not the case.

Daragh101 · 20-07-2009 4:11am

irish_bob wrote: »

your living in LA LA land

no you just no its true...............much to learn friend..
i dont even work in the public sector i just no what goes on there..and its clear you have no idea...:rolleyes:its a dream to you!

greener&leaner · 20-07-2009 9:37am

Daragh101 wrote: »

no you just no its true...............much to learn friend..
i dont even work in the public sector i just no what goes on there..and its clear you have no idea...:rolleyes:its a dream to you!

I think you'll find that I just did the sums and proved it's not true.

and it's know, not no.

Riskymove · 20-07-2009 10:08am

irish_bob wrote: »

how does criticising the public sector make one a bigot , i realise some posters on certain forums have compared the criticsm of public servants to that of the jewish experience in poland circa 1938 but still

I suppose you prefer the apartheid reference, perhaps with the poor oppressed private workers only able to work as maids and gardeners for the elite Public sector:pac:

RTE: let's hear from both sides = soft on public sector

Indo: ranting and raving about all things public sector = balanced

an interesting analysis alright

irish_bob · 20-07-2009 10:31am

Riskymove wrote: »

I suppose you prefer the apartheid reference, perhaps with the poor oppressed private workers only able to work as maids and gardeners for the elite Public sector:pac:

RTE: let's hear from both sides = soft on public sector

Indo: ranting and raving about all things public sector = balanced

an interesting analysis alright

rte give softball interviews to union heads and pull at the heart strings when discussing cuts by using the terms VULNERABLE in almost every interview

sean o rourke interviewed the teachers union head last friday , the union guy rattled on about incease in class sizes and loss of special needs teachers , baschically a WONT SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN speech yet sean o rourke never asked him the obvious question , would teachers not take a pay cut so as theese cuts need not be nessceserry, other than pat kenny , i cant think of a single RTE broadcaster who is not soft on the public sector pay debate and even he is pretty moderate

the sindo repots the facts on public sector pay plus they add opinion , vincent browne in the irish times calls for tax increase and more understanding of travellers , more opinion and why not

RTE is a public service broadcaster , it has a duty to the tax payer to tell it like it is in relation to public sector pay , people like you consider asking questions about public sector pay as being equal to public sector bashing , baschically discussing public sector pay = public sector bashing , i suspect its yet another union trick to silence debate

greener&leaner · 20-07-2009 10:42am

irish_bob wrote: »

rte give softball interviews to union heads and pull at the heart strings when discussing cuts by using the terms VULNERABLE in almost every interview

sean o rourke interviewed the teachers union head last friday , the union guy rattled on about incease in class sizes and loss of special needs teachers , baschically a WONT SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN speech yet sean o rourke never asked him the obvious question , would teachers not take a pay cut so as theese cuts need not be nessceserry, other than pat kenny , i cant think of a single RTE broadcaster who is not soft on the public sector pay debate and even he is pretty moderate

the sindo repots the facts on public sector pay plus they add opinion , vincent browne in the irish times calls for tax increase and more understanding of travellers , more opinion and why not

RTE is a public service broadcaster , it has a duty to the tax payer to tell it like it is in relation to public sector pay , people like you consider asking questions about public sector pay as being equal to public sector bashing , baschically discussing public sector pay = public sector bashing , i suspect its yet another union trick to silence debate

What gets me is the blatant lies that union leaders tell about salaries, and the media's refusal to tackle them. I have heard union leaders talking about starting salaries for teachers being E32,599, ie point one on the salary scale. It's not possible to start as a teacher on that. A degree starts you on point three of the salary scale and you get extra money for the degree and the Hdip. I have heard reporters failing to challenge the amount and sympathising that it is not a large salary?!?

Nurses starting salaries are E31,875 but again no one really starts on that because of the extra time payments for unsociable hours.

Contrast that with this:

GTI Ireland, the publisher of gradireland.com carries out research annually to look both at what employers offer and what students expect. For the survey of student preferences that fed into Ireland’s 100 leading graduate employers, we also asked: ‘What do you expect your salary to be in your first graduate job?’ Most respondents of the 2008 survey expected to earn from €30,000–€34,999.

To find out whether these expectations were realistic, we then asked employers: ‘What is the average starting salary for a typical first degree graduate?’ According to the responses, the salary band you are most likely to fall into is €26,000– €27,999.

According to the gradireland Graduate Salary Survey 2008, the average graduate starting salary in Ireland is €27,224,

http://gradireland.com/careers-advice/articleview-3a_285.aspx

We're paying teachers a starting salary E10K above the average graduate salary, and nurses a minimum of 4K higher than the average graduate salary before we give them all their 2x, 1+1/4x, 1+1/6x payments.

It's abundantly clear that we're massively over paying the public sector.

Baby75 · 20-07-2009 10:46am

How Strange wrote: »

Our worthless, criminal government are adopting a shock tactic style cull of the public services. It's so reactionary and imaginative it would deserve our derision if it weren't for how scary it is.

Read Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine and tell me you don't get a shiver down your back as you read about how governments in South Korea, Bolivia, Argentina, Chile, Poland, UK (Thatcher's era), Russia all drafted and implemented drastic cuts to the public services and services which improvrish the lower and middle classes and benefit capitalism and private ind.ustry.

You strip out the public sector and the private sector then dictate to the government how a shrunken public services should be run. It's all part of the liberal agenda; they employ a liberal economist who has no consideration of how many children will lose their support teachers or if families lose their medical cards or you lose the tax benefit on dental treatment or your mother can't get a bed in a nursing home so you have to pay for a private home. These are the small things that add to your quality of life and which are part of the fabric of European society. It's all these things that make me glad to be European and not American.

If these cuts go through then private sector wages are next. Wage cuts will be brought in under a regime of fear because you'll think you're lucky to have a job. In fact we're halfway there already.

Will the politicians and the highest level of civil service get their pay cut and lose their expense accounts and chauffeur driven cars or is it the ordinary mick that gets the chop or becomes poorer because of spending cuts?

This isn't about getting one over on an 'overpaid' public sector. That's what the government spin doctors want you to think. They have created this division to enable them to carry out the cuts with the blessing of the private sector. The government created the disparity and now they're villifying them.

I want to know at what stage Irish people are going to get off their lazy fat asses and revolt against these arrogant f*ckers in government.

Honestly, are we so complacent that we just sit and curse at the news? What does it take for Irish people to take to the streets and protest like the French?

I hear what your saying, Ild hit the streets now no problem Im so fed up. Im over moaning as well !

Riskymove · 20-07-2009 10:48am

RTE is a public service broadcaster , it has a duty to the tax payer to tell it like it is in relation to public sector pay

I hear plenty of people call for cuts on RTE and I hear plenty of questions being asked in interviews...perhaps not to your requirements:pac:

people like you consider asking questions about public sector pay as being equal to public sector bashing

No I don't.....but I consider random ranting about things and in particular cheap personal comments and tarring-with-one-brush judgements equal to public sector bashing

baschically discussing public sector pay = public sector bashing , i suspect its yet another union trick to silence debate

lol...does not look like its working very well so..:pac:

jmayo · 20-07-2009 11:07am

irish_bob wrote: »

something that gets my goat is public sector workers who rant on about those that caused the mess , i.e developers , ironic considering the developers ( bad as they were ) generated the revenue that allowed this country to claim the title of europes highest paid public sector , public servants done well out of developers for a long time

Ahh FFS the developers and their lackie public representatives, most of which were members of FF, have helped destroy this country longterm.
Then to compound it bertie and his crew ars*licked the unions, who primarily represent public servants, and gave them everything they demanded.
Added to that they expanded the public sector numbers with no benefits acrewing to the public and the services offered.

ChowChow wrote: »

Eh what? RTE have had numerous current affairs programmes dealing with issues such as the HSE, public sector reform and public sector pensions that have been very critical (Prime Time and Morning Ireland are two that immediately spring to mind). The Irish Times unlike the bigoted Independent is not one sided in its reporting either (recent example here).

I will agree the Independent is bigoted and irish_bob stop believeing (?) they are a voice for the private sector.
They are the rag after all that helped bertie get back into power and they shamelessly promoted the construction bubble thorugh the ramblings of that idiot in chief O'Connor.
And any paper that gives space and pays a gobsh**e like Harris needs binning.
Although I have to say his radio interview the other day for once actually made sense and described the public sector wastage corretly.
The only nagging thing is that it was spoken by a gobsh**e who usually is a mouthpiece for an ethically corrupt and morally bankrupt bunch of chancers.

RTE as always are trying to keep government on side since they need license fees and people should remember they also drink form the public trough so to speak.
They are hardly going to champion cuts, it would be like turkeys voting for christmas :rolleyes:

Riskymove · 20-07-2009 11:10am

jmayo wrote: »

IAlthough I have to say his radio interview the other day for once actually made sense and described the public sector wastage corretly.
The only nagging thing is that it was spoken by a gobsh**e who usually is a mouthpiece for an ethically corrupt and morally bankrupt bunch of chancers.

Quote: "when I was in the Worker's Party, i defended the Public Sector"...all you need to know about Eoghan Harris and his "convictions"

irish_bob · 20-07-2009 11:21am

greener&leaner wrote: »

What gets me is the blatant lies that union leaders tell about salaries, and the media's refusal to tackle them. I have heard union leaders talking about starting salaries for teachers being E32,599, ie point one on the salary scale. It's not possible to start as a teacher on that. A degree starts you on point three of the salary scale and you get extra money for the degree and the Hdip. I have heard reporters failing to challenge the amount and sympathising that it is not a large salary?!?

Nurses starting salaries are E31,875 but again no one really starts on that because of the extra time payments for unsociable hours.

Contrast that with this:

http://gradireland.com/careers-advice/articleview-3a_285.aspx

We're paying teachers a starting salary E10K above the average graduate salary, and nurses a minimum of 4K higher than the average graduate salary before we give them all their 2x, 1+1/4x, 1+1/6x payments.

It's abundantly clear that we're massively over paying the public sector.

and why do people not know this , because the national broadcaster doesnt tell them , a lot of people have been conditioned into thinking that nurses and gardai are not well rewarded in this country , this is due to the fact that union spin and disinformation goes unchallenged for the most part

greener&leaner · 20-07-2009 11:23am

irish_bob wrote: »

and why do people not know this , because the national broadcaster doesnt tell them , a lot of people have been conditioned into thinking that nurses and gardai are not well rewarded in this country , this is due to the fact that union spin and disinformation goes unchallenged for the most part

precisely, which is why I quote the actual facts at every opportunity.

As citizens we need to challenge the unions who have a stranglehold over our country.

I will say this though, alot of the smaller groups in the public service have relatively poor pay. Their unions haven't negotiated the little perks of overtime/payments for required degrees for them. It's the big high profile groups, the nurses, the Gards, the Teachers who can hold the country to ransom, that are so overpaid.

irish_bob · 20-07-2009 11:45am

greener&leaner wrote: »

precisely, which is why I quote the actual facts at every opportunity.

As citizens we need to challenge the unions who have a stranglehold over our country.

I will say this though, alot of the smaller groups in the public service have relatively poor pay. Their unions haven't negotiated the little perks of overtime/payments for required degrees for them. It's the big high profile groups, the nurses, the Gards, the Teachers who can hold the country to ransom, that are so overpaid.

the lower paid in the civil service may be on low pay compared to nurses , teachers etc but they are on very good pay compared to thier equivelents in the private sector , clerical officers are on far high money than secreterys in the private sector and if truth be told are not exactly ran of their feet as anyone who has every entered a state dept can testify , ive yet to see less than two behind the smallest of desks , no scarcity of surplus staff thats for sure , the problem in the public service is of course two fold , over staffed and over paid

Riskymove · 20-07-2009 11:47am

irish_bob wrote: »

and why do people not know this ,

because they don't look it up?

after all, public pay is generally published and openly available

Riskymove · 20-07-2009 11:51am

irish_bob wrote: »

they are on very good pay compared to thier equivelents in the private sector , clerical officers are on far high money than secreterys in the private sector and if truth be told are not exactly ran of their feet as anyone who has every entered a state dept can testify , ive yet to see less than two behind the smallest of desks , no scarcity of surplus staff thats for sure , the problem in the public service is of course two fold , over staffed and over paid

lots of opinion there,

a few years ago the civil service had problems hiring COs because you could get much more as temps in the private sector

according to the OECD report last year, the civil service is smaller than is the norm

irish_bob · 20-07-2009 11:53am

Riskymove wrote: »

lots of opinion there,

a few years ago the civil service had problems hiring COs because you could get much more as temps in the private sector

according to the OECD report last year, the civil service is smaller than is the norm

lots of information excluded there , we have a tiny army in comparison to other countries

greener&leaner · 20-07-2009 11:55am

Riskymove wrote: »

because they don't look it up?

after all, public pay is generally published and openly available

They're openly available but extremely confusing, and I have a suspicion deliberately so.

Why points 1 and 2 on the common basic scale for teachers even exist is beyond me.
Also why doesn't the common basic scale include the allowances for a pass degree and a pass HDip since both are required as basic minimum qualifications to teach?

P. Breathnach · 20-07-2009 11:55am

irish_bob wrote: »

... ive yet to see less than two behind the smallest of desks , no scarcity of surplus staff thats for sure ...

So give them bigger offices and more desks, and your evidence of there being surplus staff goes up in a puff of smoke.

P. Breathnach · 20-07-2009 11:56am

irish_bob wrote: »

lots of information excluded there , we have a tiny army in comparison to other countries

Nobody counts army personnel as civil servants.

irish_bob · 20-07-2009 11:58am

Riskymove wrote: »

because they don't look it up?

after all, public pay is generally published and openly available

most people dont know where to look for this info , its a pretty lame defense of RTE saying that the info can be found elsewhere

Riskymove · 20-07-2009 12:04pm

irish_bob wrote: »

most people dont know where to look for this info , its a pretty lame defense of RTE saying that the info can be found elsewhere

it wasn't meant to defend RTE

17,000 job cuts proposed... Does this sound like insanity to anyone else?

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