17,000 job cuts proposed... Does this sound like insanity to anyone else?

Riskymove

irish_bob wrote: »

lots of information excluded there , we have a tiny army in comparison to other countries

and of course, the OECD people did not notice this?

Riskymove

greener&leaner wrote: »

They're openly available but extremely confusing, and I have a suspicion deliberately so.

i don't agree, while some payscales have additional allowances which may be added on to basic pay, I'd hardly call that "extremely confusing"

Google "teacher pay" you get http://www.asti.ie/payandcon.htm

google "garda pay" you get http://www.gra.cc/salaryscales.shtml

google "civil service pay" you get http://www.publicjobs.ie/en/civilservice/salary-scaling.asp

Daragh101

and it's know,not no

tbh who cares....its not an english test, its a couple of lines wrote in a less than 30seconds.

irish_bob

Daragh101 wrote: »

and it's know,not no

tbh who cares....its not an english test, its a couple of lines wrote in a less than 30seconds.

public servants nit pick all the time when presented with facts , whats good for the goose and all that

Daragh101

sorry if you were unable to understand.

rumour

P. Breathnach wrote: »

No. You have posted what looked, on the surface, like measured facts: you gave percentages. I have found and posted data that seems to refute your claims. Surely it is appropriate that you now back up what you said by pointing us to an authoritative source. Or should I infer that you were making things up?

Despite all the sources of information from reputable agencies you will not concede that the public sector are overpaid or capable of wasting money. This argument is however redundant, the public sector are facing stark choices either cut your pay or have the IMF do it for you.
It appears and I am only guessing here that on this thread things have decended into the polarised argument of the private sector saying one thing and the public sector saying another. Despite overwhelming effort to convey the message that the public sector is risking making the country insolvent and therefore we should act now, the debate still remains centered around arguments that the public sector is not overpaid. That is a 'red herring' consider if it were true that the public sector was not overpaid (ignoring substantial evidence because its inconvenient) the question still arises, how do we ward off potential insolvency. The government is borrowing in the name of all Irish people €400M a week in excess of what it can tax from the private sector to support the public sector. The private sector is shrinking by the day, that means less opportunity to tax our way out of the problem. What do we do? Keep borrowing? If we keep this appraoch the people lending to us are going to stop lending. When that happens the IMF come in, then instead of organised pay cuts the public sector will be given up to 40% pay cuts period, because there is no other source of money.
All the statistics etc about public sector pay rates become irrelevant faced with this scenario. Therefore for it appears that the people here arguing for the pay cuts are infact acting in the long term interests of public sector. It is surely preferable that we retain some control on how we deploy our funds than to give it over entirely to a foreign unsympathetic administration. All that is required is a sense of responsibility.

Spudmonkey

rumour wrote: »

Despite all the sources of information from reputable agencies you will not concede that the public sector are overpaid or capable of wasting money. This argument is however redundant, the public sector are facing stark choices either cut your pay or have the IMF do it for you.
It appears and I am only guessing here that on this thread things have decended into the polarised argument of the private sector saying one thing and the public sector saying another. Despite overwhelming effort to convey the message that the public sector is risking making the country insolvent and therefore we should act now, the debate still remains centered around arguments that the public sector is not overpaid. That is a 'red herring' consider if it were true that the public sector was not overpaid (ignoring substantial evidence because its inconvenient) the question still arises, how do we ward off potential insolvency. The government is borrowing in the name of all Irish people €400M a week in excess of what it can tax from the private sector to support the public sector. The private sector is shrinking by the day, that means less opportunity to tax our way out of the problem. What do we do? Keep borrowing? If we keep this appraoch the people lending to us are going to stop lending. When that happens the IMF come in, then instead of organised pay cuts the public sector will be given up to 40% pay cuts period, because there is no other source of money.
All the statistics etc about public sector pay rates become irrelevant faced with this scenario. Therefore for it appears that the people here arguing for the pay cuts are infact acting in the long term interests of public sector. It is surely preferable that we retain some control on how we deploy our funds than to give it over entirely to a foreign unsympathetic administration. All that is required is a sense of responsibility.

Summed up nicely!

Riskymove

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Summed up nicely!

Of course the public sector pay bill is too high and money is wasted in the public service (but also in the private) but the issue as I see it is that there are people just obsessed with reducing pay significantly across the board for public servants and wont seem to be satisfied until they are made to suffer.

People throw amounts like 30% and more around as if it were monopoly money and not real people we are talking about. These people have lives, families and mortgages and made such decisions on the basis of pay awarded to them by the Government. I know well that there are people in the private sector losing their jobs and taking pay cuts but that does not mean we should just go out looking for people to do the same to to make us feel better!

Like it or not the Government are the principle reason for the increase in the cost of the public sector through expansion and the ridiculous benchmarking. The main tool available to them is a reduction in numbers in the public service and some pay cut (levy for starters, perhaps more to come)

The bottom line is that public expenditure is too high and the solution is going to be a combination of:

1. Reduction in Public service pay bill (numbers, pay, future pension structures etc)

2. Cutbacks in welfare

3. cutbacks in other services, schemes, grants

4. increased taxes/charges (tax base, property, water, carbon etc)

all these are either being considered or in place already

rumour

I understand that the consequences of getting used to less money are a bitter pill to swallow. The private sector has been dealing with the realities of this for some time. I have many friends who are now on the dole, seeking to emigrate wherever they can find work, at the same time trying to ward off the banks and deal with negative equity. Not to mention that every one I know in the private sector has taken a pay cut and you may not want to believe this but the directors and highest paid have been hit hardest. None of these people come from the public sector.
I do not wish any of this on the public sector, however we have played all our cards, voting 'yes' to Lisbon is being sold as some sort of panaecia, it is not, it is a short term lifeline. We will still have to face this problem in public sector spending. We either deal with it united as a country or squabble among ourselves as the country sinks.

Judging by this thread alone, is it any wonder the government are unable to decide/act quickly. Some years ago the previous leader of Fine Gael took the economic stance in advance of the election. They were crucified, the population voted for people who promised life would be better.

I am continually annoyed at the need here to vent fury at the government, the bankers or whoever as long as they do not have to look at themselves. The government works within the possiblities of the political system. The opposition, Fine Gael and Labour see this economic struggle as an opportunity to get power that is all.

Take R Bruton for example in the Irish times last week he was writing about our world class education system, on the same day in the same newspaper it was reported that our education system does not rank in the top 20 according to the OECD. Someone is not telling the truth.Why would he do this?.....Fine Gael have learned that telling the truth does not help you in Ireland. We the electorate want to be promised good things and succumb to flattery even though we instinctivley know the opposite. The politician promises what the electorate wants, that is currently the only formulae that works in Ireland.

Can we blame the these people for doing what the electorate wanted, Fianna Fail delivered cash into everyones hands for years.That is what the electorate choose. To mention the opposite was to be treated with social exclusion.

The reason I bring all of this up in relation to your post is that we have to accept that hardship is on the way and prepare for it. In the future we the electorate who are ultimately responsible for this mess need to accept responsibility, not seek to find a place to blame it. The fault belongs primarily with the electorate period. Accept that and move on. We need to demand more of our politicians who like R Bruton last week talk nonsense.

We need to make our politicians function and force them to be accountable. Do not abscond responsibility relying on the media (fuelled with agendas). Individually everytime we meet or discuss this subject directly or within heresay of these politicians from Labour, Fine Gael, Fainna Fail and the Unions they need to walk away with a clear understanding of our opinions. They are not beyond reacting to public opinion the electorate have to make sure that our representatives in our constituencies know our opinions and more importantly our standards. We want the truth not empty promises and flattery. They have to be made act in the interests of the state not in the interests of their parties.

This will not alleviate the hardship we all face in the short term but will help in the long term.

Riskymove

rumour wrote: »

Can we blame the these people for doing what the electorate wanted, Fianna Fail delivered cash into everyones hands for years.That is what the electorate choose. To mention the opposite was to be treated with social exclusion.

a great post overall, one point though....I hear this refrain a lot too...oh we all voted FF, we get what we deserve etc...FF got around 40% of the vote in 2007, therefore the majority in fact did not vote for FF

rumour

Yes and we will in all probability be given a Labour Fine Gael coalition the next time with X% of the vote representing opposing ideologies. Left and centre right. Amazing how all these ideological beliefs can be set aside to get 'power'. Fianna Fail did facilitate our current mess but can you imagine a left/centre right government doing anything differently?
On their current form they won't stand behind any cut backs. I view this as spineless. They do it because they believe supporting cut backs could jeopardise votes. Greedy self serving pigs, a clear example of party before country.
This is why I believe the only way to enact change is when they come to your doorstep or any time this issue comes up we must all demand that they clarify their positions and tell them clearly that they are avoiding the truth, are lying etc and tell them 'you do not have my vote, whats more I'm going to tell all my mates not to vote for you either'.
It is incredible that Labour won't rule out going into Government with Fianna Fail yet criticise them every day. That is hypocracy, why are they allowed do this? Even more, why does he (Gilomore) think it is acceptable. For me it appears labour will stand for election on principals they will promise to the electorate and as soon as they are elected will abondon for some sort of deal(spinned for the media) with either FF or FG. What an insult to the people who voted for Labour. I just cannot get over the ruthless spinelessness and the calculated disdain for the electorate in this approach. All in the pursuit of power.

This will have the added effect of neutralising any serious opposition in Dail Eireann as the opposition typically FF or FG have little or now ideological differences.

In answer to your post though, it is just another problem with our system that needs to be fixed. The only way they'll do that is if we the electorate demand it.