Legit SW costs - Couple with 3 children can get €43k!

gurramok

Its in the Indo this morning but it ain't sensationalist as its in the Vol II report as well. I know real life examples similar to this so it ain't tabloid nonsense. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/it-can-pay-to-stay-at-home---836442000-a-year-to-be-precise-1826386.html

According to the report, a Dublin couple with three children, from the ages of four to 11, can avail of benefits worth €23,000 a year.

This is made up of €204.30 a week in Jobseeker's Benefit, or €10,623 a year. There is an additional weekly payment of €135.60 for a "qualifying adult" in respect of the spouse. There is also a payment of €78 a week for the three children, as the graphic on this page shows.

When a rent allowance of €232.15 a week is added in, the couple ends up with tax-free payments worth €35,500.

As they have three children, the couple in the Bord Snip Nua report would be entitled to total child benefit payments of €123.46 a week. This means the fictional family is taking in €803.09 a week, or €41,960.68 a year in state benefits.

The report also points out that a couple with no children receiving rent supplement could receive up to €27,000 a year.

Snip's authors say they are concerned that any further hiking in tax rates would make it even more unattractive to take up jobs, adding that social welfare rates should be cut by 5pc across the board.

If one of the adults in the example of the couple with three children were to take up a job, they would end up paying tax at 20pc up to €45,400. They would also have to pay 2pc in the income levy, 4pc in PRSI and 4pc of their gross income in the health levy, tax expert Cathal Maxwell of Paylesstax.ie said.

He added that this couple, with one income, would need to earn €55,000 a year to come out with €42,000 after tax.

Strip out the R.A. which goes straight to the landlord and the take home 'pay' is 30k for this family. All they have to do is keep having kids and they will keep the payments as well as the R.A.

Before the PC brigade come on and say, 'they are entitled to all these as they paid all their stamps', there are people out there who never worked all their lives and thats where they make a career out of welfare.

Does it bother you as a working taxpayer? Is it worth working at all?

ejmaztec

gurramok wrote: »

Its in the Indo this morning but it ain't sensationalist as its in the Vol II report as well. I know real life examples similar to this so it ain't tabloid nonsense. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/it-can-pay-to-stay-at-home---836442000-a-year-to-be-precise-1826386.html



Strip out the R.A. which goes straight to the landlord and the take home 'pay' is 30k for this family. All they have to do is keep having kids and they will keep the payments as well as the R.A.

Before the PC brigade come on and say, 'they are entitled to all these as they paid all their stamps', there are people out there who never worked all their lives and thats where they make a career out of welfare.

Does it bother you as a working taxpayer? Is it worth working at all?

I've heard of various cases like this, and it's completely crazy that anyone should get benefits like these, and it's even crazier to think that the various departments involved didn't seem to realise what the hell was going on.

With the rent allowance, I've also heard that various landlords, as well as getting the allowance itself, also get some cash from the tenant on the grounds that the RA isn't enough.

Orla K

I'm not going to argue anything with you but keep in mind raising children is quite costly and with the rent allowance the tentent has to pay money aswell, i think it's gone to about €100 for most people, some more, some less. Something else I have noticed with most Irish people is if they are €X in debt they don't tell anyone, if they are struggling they don't say how bad it really is.

podge3

When you see figures like this, it makes me wonder why I get out of bed in the morning :mad:.

I have absolutely no problem with people who have worked for several years claiming PRSI entitlements when they fall on hard times. In fact, I think the recently unemployed should get even more benefits as they would probably have mortgages, carloans etc etc.

I do, however, have a problem with serial spongers who never worked, will never work and don't want to work. Why should they, I suppose, when they would need to earn €55K to "break even". Much better off at home in bed adding to your brood so you can get even more free money.

This country needs to wake up and stop paying people to have kids. If you can't afford children - don't have them.

BTW, those figures in the quoted article do not seem to include all the other freebies i.e. free school books, uniforms etc etc

sparklepants

The calculations above include child benefit. Child benefit allowances would be paid, regardless of the employment status of the couple. The comparison with a couple earning €55k is therefore incorrect.

ejmaztec

Orla K wrote: »

I'm not going to argue anything with you but keep in mind raising children is quite costly and with the rent allowance the tentent has to pay money aswell, i think it's gone to about €100 for most people, some more, some less. Something else I have noticed with most Irish people is if they are €X in debt they don't tell anyone, if they are struggling they don't say how bad it really is.

We know that it costs a lot of money to raise kids, and that it's bad enough trying to raise our own without having to raise by proxy, the children of those who weren't even looking for a job during the boom years, as they were doing quite nicely without.

The big joke is, that after whatever cuts are put in place, the taxpayer will still be for decades paying through the nose for the after-effects of this, and for whatever other dodgy schemes there are.

kazzer

Orla K wrote: »

keep in mind raising children is quite costly

This is something I have just never understood. Child benefit - why the **** should I have to contribute to the raising of your kids?

ei.sdraob

kazzer wrote: »

This is something I have just never understood. Child benefit - why the **** should I have to contribute to the raising of your kids?

and paying their mortgages

as a single self employed male i get already barely any tax credits and get hit with high personal, employer, prsi/paye and corpo taxes

i dont have kids or mortgage yet i pay for someone elses?

as i mentioned in parallel thread

why bother working and busting my balls?

sigh
ei.sdraob | boards.ie

irishgrover

kazzer wrote: »

This is something I have just never understood. Child benefit - why the **** should I have to contribute to the raising of your kids?

there are a number of reasons, both social and economic...

but at the most basic economic level, you have to contribute to the costs of my kids, because they will be paying for you when you are old and decrepit and they are tax paying adults...

is_that_so

kazzer wrote: »

This is something I have just never understood. Child benefit - why the **** should I have to contribute to the raising of your kids?

So that they can help maintain enough population to pay for your retirement. And as I posted elsewhere on this same question do you object to having to pay for the unemployed as well or having someone pay for you if you are unemployed?

It's not the payment , it's the generosity and uncontrolled universality of it that causes the problem. As others above here have posted that benefit can be an important part of their budget yet there are others who use it as pocket money.

Personally find the collective stupidity of that situation and the complete disincentive to work more repugnant. BTW that detail is on p.190 of Volume II

ei.sdraob

irishgrover wrote: »

there are a number of reasons, both social and economic...

but at the most basic economic level, you have to contribute to the costs of my kids, because they will be paying for you when you are old and decrepit and they are tax paying adults...

you mean they will be paying for the gold plated guaranteed pensions of the public/civil sectors?

here in the real world we either dont have pensions, or they evaporated overnight, gone puffff

oh an by time I retire i dont expect a pension from state, the way things are going the country will be long bankrupt before then


ei.sdraob | boards.ie

irishgrover

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you mean they will be paying for the gold plated guaranteed pensions of the public/civil sectors?

here in the real world we either dont have pensions, or they evaporated overnight, gone puffff

oh an by time I retire i dont expect a pension from state, the way things are going the country will be long bankrupt before then


ei.sdraob | boards.ie

not sure if/why you're having a go at me regarding public sector pensions.... I'm just talking basic economics, the population of the country is getting much older, much quicker, and a lot of tax payers are going to be needed in the next 20 years to deal with it..
...... the reality is that for a lot of middle earners, child benefit is not a luxury, but a vital part of their budget to pay mortgages, childcare, etc etc.

ei.sdraob

irishgrover wrote: »

not sure if/why you're having a go at me regarding public sector pensions.... I'm just talking basic economics, the population of the country is getting much older, much quicker, and a lot of tax payers are going to be needed in the next 20 years to deal with it..
...... the reality is that for a lot of middle earners, child benefit is not a luxury, but a vital part of their budget to pay mortgages, childcare, etc etc.

that wasn't aimed at you, just a remark that alot people dont have goldplated guaranteed state pensions and the way things are going there might be not any pensions in few decades

I understand well the point of taxation and the need for children to manatain the show, Russia for example has alot of issues with shrinking population and people not wanting to have kids

I have no problems paying taxes, I pay plenty and on time in the hope that one day I might need to make use of the social facilities and well I dont want to see poverty and crime increase

But as i said it is a kick in the balls to learn that all your work is for nothing, that one might be better of just sponging of the state

This morning i woke up at 5:30 with the aim of completing a vial part of my latest project at work, but after reading the papers and boards i just feel angry

How did things get so bad? why are there more incentives not to work than work? what will happen the to the country at the rate were sinking? Why bother with it all?

I dont think I will get any work done today, everybit of me says its wrong, the system is rotten to the core

Bleh pitty weed is not legal here wouldnt mind some now (hey theres an idea for an extra revenue stream)

regards
ei.sdraob | boards.ie

kazzer

irishgrover wrote: »

but a vital part of their budget to pay mortgages

Guess thats why I have a problem with it really. You probably should have planned a bit better before getting neck high in debt and relying on the few quid for the kids school shoes to pay the mortgage.

irishgrover

ei.sdraob wrote: »

that wasn't aimed at you, just a remark that alot people dont have goldplated guaranteed state pensions and the way things are going there might be any pensions in few decades

I understand well the point of taxation and the need for children to manatain the show, Russia for example has alot of issues with shrinking population and people not wanting to have kids

I have no problems paying taxes, I pay plenty and on time in the hope that one day I might need to make use of the social facilities and well I dont want to see poverty and crime increase

But as i said it is a kick in the balls to learn that all your work is for nothing, that one might be better of just sponging of the state

This morning i woke up at 5:30 with the aim of completing a vial part of my latest project at work, but after reading the papers and boards i just feel angry

How did things get so bad? why are there more incentives not to work than work? what will happen the to the country at the rate were sinking? Why bother with it all?

I dont think I will get any work done today, everybit of me says its wrong, the system is rotten to the core

Bleh pitty weed is not legal here wouldnt mind some now (hey theres an idea for an extra revenue stream)

regards
ei.sdraob | boards.ie

fair enough, I can't disagree with your comments or frustrations......but to be honest I'm too tired and frustrated with the whole think myself to add to the discussion.... by the way my four kids are most grateful to your contribution to their children's allowance

irishgrover

kazzer wrote: »

Guess thats why I have a problem with it really. You probably should have planned a bit better before getting neck high in debt and relying on the few quid for the kids school shoes to pay the mortgage.

not sure if I assume humor or stupidity is driving that comment

celticbest

What's the quickiest way to get sacked so you receive Benefits straight away because I would be better off not working looking at above figures.

ei.sdraob

irishgrover wrote: »

fair enough, I can't disagree with your comments or frustrations......but to be honest I'm too tired and frustrated with the whole think myself to add to the discussion.... by the way my four kids are most grateful to your contribution to their children's allowance

You know I wouldn't even mind if the money went to children, and neither do I agree with any cuts in education

but seems we are spending more on banks and propping up developers

and the mortgage top up thingy is rather annoying

was there any mention of property tax in the report? why not tax 2nd+ homes to the roof that would hit speculators hard and might lower the price of housing putting a roof over more peoples heads

regards
ei.sdraob | boards.ie

Nody

ei.sdraob wrote: »

why not tax 2nd+ homes to the roof that would hit speculators hard and might lower the price of housing putting a roof over more peoples heads

Create X-1 new private companies to hold one house each; voila, no double house taxing (and this assuming you could not slam them all into one company as it is unlikely the government would ever touch their friends the developer companies).

ei.sdraob

Nody wrote: »

Create X-1 new private companies to hold one house each; voila, no double house taxing (and this assuming you could not slam them all into one company as it is unlikely the government would ever touch their friends the developer companies).

it wouldn't that simple

its ~300 to register a company

then there is so much redtape and paperwork involved

and paying accountants to do accounts yearly and so on

it could be done but it wont be zero cost

this loophole could be closed via some law i suppose


edit: on some more thinking
hell with it tax all property preferably based on square meterage as they do in states

gpjordanf1

ye do know the these people dont get rent allowance to spend on themselves right? This along with some of their benefit goes to their landlord, who is probably a local developer who cannot / wont pay back the bank for dwellings that these poor people have to live in. Now i think people should re adjust where they target their anger because all i can see is the poor and vulnerable getting slammed by everyone in this country. I was laid off last nov and got a new job in march this year and believe me it was hardship and no way would i want to go back. So wake up a see the bigger picture and realise whats really going on here. BTW my new employers are having a meeting regarding downsizing and it's last in first out policy and i'm terrified. I've been on both sides and i know what it's like!

gurramok

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

ye do know the these people dont get rent allowance to spend on themselves right? This along with some of their benefit goes to their landlord, who is probably a local developer who cannot / wont pay back the bank for dwellings that these poor people have to live in. Now i think people should re adjust where they target their anger because all i can see is the poor and vulnerable getting slammed by everyone in this country. I was laid off last nov and got a new job in march this year and believe me it was hardship and no way would i want to go back. So wake up a see the bigger picture and realise whats really going on here. BTW my new employers are having a meeting regarding downsizing and it's last in first out policy and i'm terrified. I've been on both sides and i know what it's like!

Its been stated how much they get outside R.A., did you not read this?

So you agree that in this scenario, €30k of welfare into their hands is appropriate?