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John Waters v Atheist Ireland
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Again, would you support a socialist party school, where they teach that socialism is the best ideology and the problems with capitalism?
Would you support a school set up by any political party where they teach that their ideology is the best or do you think that children should be taught objectively and not led towards one political ideology?
I hate to quote myself but I think I've made a good point
At least when the state is funding it, children should be taught objectively and not led towards the ideology of whoever happens to have told the government they'll teach their curriculum as long as they allowed instil their ideology. Simple as that0 -
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I didn't say that teaching children "about faith" is indoctrination. I implied that teaching religious myths as true is indoctrination. The two are quite different, as you know very well.I'm not going to get into another discussion about how teaching children about faith is not indoctrination.
Thanks for letting me know -- I'll scribble that down and keep it beside my monitor!Do you know what people do when they disagree robindch? They compromise.
While I'd certainly prefer that parents would have more respect for the integrity of their kids' minds than to want them indoctrinated, I've little or no interest in making any attempt to stop them doing it. So if some religious people want to set up a school, send their kids to it and pay for it themselves then they should be free to do so.I don't insist that all schools should have a religious ethos. You insist all schools should not have a religious ethos. The fair compromise seems to be to allow both.
My problem is (a) that the government gives my tax money to the catholic church to run schools that the catholic church does not want my kids in and (b) does not provide a realistic alternative where religious myths are not taught as truth.
It's quite a simple problem really
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I thought it was a joke because it doesn't make any sense. You want everyone's taxes to fund religious schools but only atheist taxes to fund secular schoolsIn terms of governance. Having both faith schools and secular schools being funded by the State is not a violation of secularism in my opinion if they are being funded only to teach the cirriculum with a very limited time for religious instruction.
Why would I have said something like that as a joke? I just don't think we should rip religious ethos out of schools and I don't think it's appropriate to do so when only a minority of the population are campaigning for it. The solution is to provide an alternative. I've advocated this this whole thread.
So you're saying that in a secular society, secularists should fund their own schools but religious people should get state support. NonsenseYou referred to political parties. Religion does not deal with governance. Ireland isn't a theocracy. Promoting political parties in school could have a negative effect on democracy, promoting religion in schools does not have a negative effect on democracy.
I know Ireland isn't a theocracy but it does deal with politics, all the more reason why political ideologies should be taught and not religious ones.
It's only your opinion that promoting religion in schools doesn't have a negative effect, it's my opinion that it does, that biasing people towards any ideology when you're supposed to be teaching them objectively has a negative effect.
And you said the ethos doesn't matter as long as the curriculum is taught. Does it matter or doesn't it?0 -
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I thought it was a joke because it doesn't make any sense. You want everyone's taxes to fund religious schools but only atheist taxes to fund secular schools
I was kidding. However, as long as the Irish Constitution enshrines free choice of moral and religious education, I feel that it should exist. I don't think parents should be financially penalised for wanting their children to go to a school with a religious ethos, and I personally stick by that.
The existence of secular schools is fine by my book. That's as far as I am going however. Removing tax relief from churches and removing funding from religious schools I find to be inappropriate.So basically you're saying that in a secular society, secularists should fund their own schools but religious people should get state support. Nonsense
I think that all the money should be distributed fairly to every school that teaches the cirriculum irrespective of religious ethos, or lack thereof. I've made that clear. My response concerning the atheist taxes thing wasn't really in all that much seriousness, it was a response to all the complaints of "I don't want my taxes being spent this way". That's fine. But don't dictate where the taxes of theists go.I know Ireland isn't a theocracy but it does deal with politics, all the more reason why political ideologies should be taught and not religious ones.
Religion doesn't deal with governance. It also doesn't have a negative effect on democracy. That's the difference. I've made that clear.It's only your opinion that promoting religion in schools doesn't have a negative effect, it's my opinion that it does, that biasing people towards any ideology when you're supposed to be teaching them objectively has a negative effect.
That's fine. Don't send your child to a school with a religious ethos then. Let parents decide whether or not they think that religious schools are harmful. From my experience they certainly are not.And you said the ethos doesn't matter as long as the curriculum is taught. Does it matter or doesn't it?
The religious ethos doesn't matter. You've been throwing in red herrings about teaching politics when the teaching of politics in school wasn't being discussed.
Mind you people teach politics with a bias at university, I know that much 0 -
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Oh yeah, I forget that.I'm not a Catholic either. I think 98% might be too much for 85% of the population mind.
The amount of words focusing on talking about the best and fairest ways to teach religion in schools... it doesn't need to be in schools!
You don't need religion to teach kids respect and tolerance during school, and parents or priests can teach 'em religion whenever else they want.0 -
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Nobody's stopping them opening the bible, are they?!You don't feel it needs to be in schools. Many parents feel that it is beneficial to have their children taught about their faith.
This is more like it. It's beneficial to those 'mass twice a year', a la carte parents who only have a vague recollection of religion from their own schooling to run their kids through the same system. Is this a good enough reason? Parents who really gave a darn about their kids religious education should be doing more than outsourcing it so they can play golf on Sundays. I hate the thought of these types of families propping up the old system.You don't believe this. Many parents do think that it is beneficial that their children learn about religion in school.
I don't get how I'm penalising anyone financially, tbh. Does Sunday School cost money or something?If you personally do not want to have your child learn about this fine, but I think it's a bit haughty for you to financially penalise people for wishing to give their child a religious education. 0 -
Nobody's stopping them opening the bible, are they?!
No, that's true. However, I don't see why parents shouldn't have the freedom to bring their child to a religious school if they want to learn about faith while in school. I don't see that as an issue.This is more like it. It's beneficial to those 'mass twice a year', a la carte parents who only have a vague recollection of religion from their own schooling to run their kids through the same system. Is this a good enough reason? Parents who really gave a darn about their kids religious education should be doing more than outsourcing it so they can play golf on Sundays. I hate the thought of these types of families propping up the old system.
I don't feel the need to judge other Christians for how fervently they believe. I just respect that people of faith will want to educate their children in their respective faith and I think that's fair and I think that the Government should fund faith schools equally to secular schools.I don't get how I'm penalising anyone financially, tbh. Does Sunday School cost money or something?
I think parents should have the right to educate their child in their religious ethos without paying fees. Just as I feel that non-religious parents should have the right to educate their child in secular schools without fees.0 -
Teaching people religion in schools would be law class rather than religion class if it were a theocracy
Being a theocracy does not stop religion being an ideology any more than being secular stops politics being an ideology.
I asked you if you would support its removal from schools then. First you said ethos doesn't matter, then you said it matters if it could affect governance so I'm asking you if the same rule would apply the other way around.
Would you try to change the law enforcing religion in schools if Ireland was a theocracy due to it affecting governance since you're against schools with political ethos in a secular society for the same reason?0 -
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