Book Club: "The Diceman" - Luke Rhinehart / "Fooled by Randomness" - Nicholas T

djsctt

So, are we gonna choose a fiction from TG's list ?

Mellor

djsctt wrote: »

So, are we gonna choose a fiction from TG's list ?

Is the Diceman not fiction. Albeit based on life expierences.

Tight Ted

The Dice man most definitely falls into the fiction category.

When does discussion on the book begin? There are a few things I need to get off my chest about the book.

hotspur

Mellor wrote: »

Is the Diceman not fiction. Albeit based on life expierences.

Yes it is but it is the current book, we need to vote on the next fiction book. We will have a poll when a mod (Lloyd) sticks it up I guess.

El Stuntman

I saw a guy reading the Diceman on the DART this morning, 25-ish, suited and got off at Connolly

I thought he might potentially be a boardsie but then realised this was unlikely as it was before 8am :pac:

Silver-Tiger

On the 2nd last week of a 6 month oz/asia stint, bit of travelling involved so a new book is perfect. Just picked up the diceman for 3 euro in phuket. Burst through the first 10 chapters. Looking forward to the rest. Cheers for the tip lads.

Icarus152

Am I the only one not enjoying it?

AdMMM

Icarus152 wrote: »

Am I the only one not enjoying it?

I can certainly see why people wouldn't like it. I'm only the eleventh chapter but there's already been a few "Jesus Christ!" moments. It reads easily though (for the most part) and I'm enjoying his sense of humour. If it keeps flowing along at this pace then I should continue to enjoy it. It's a very interesting concept and I'mlooking forward to discovering just where it takes him!

Icarus152

I'll keep the powder dry until we start reviewing it.

Jesus Wept

El Stuntman wrote: »

I saw a guy reading the Diceman on the DART this morning, 25-ish, suited and got off at Connolly

I thought he might potentially be a boardsie but then realised this was unlikely as it was before 8am :pac:

Probably was, heading home.

cooker3

So I just finished the Dice Man this morning. I got through the final 200 pages over the course of the last 10 hours in between Ipokers various disconections..... It's at this point I realise how much I suck at english. A Lloydesque review this shall not be.

I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was genuinely thought provoking although I suspect I haven't fully explored the themes and ideas expressed in the way I thought I might do while reading it if that makes sense.

It had some real laugh out loud moments

"Since among his many roles he was Saint Simeon Stylites, Greta Garbo, a three-year old child and Jack the Ripper, the members of his family deserve a lot of credit for their psychological maturity. May they rest in peace"

Or when

the dice decided he has to leave Lil and the kids forever and next chapter just says "How about that"

That made me chuckle.

Looking forward to what others think.

As for the other books. I already read fooled by randomness and Catch 22. I have to say I really struggled to read Catch 22. I couldn't go more then 30 pages without having to stop which considering this version was 500 odd pages long made it a long read. He kept replaying the same scenes again and I found it quite disjointed and struggling to figure out what was going on and who everybody was. There was a rather huge set of characters (kind of like Band of Brothers but possibly that is the point) There was some great characters in it. I particularly enjoyed Major Major. But yeah I don't think I could read it again.

Fooled by randomness is a really good book. I read it before the giant economic meltdown so it's particularly noteworthy consider what a lot that it claimed has come to pass. Anyone with an interest in poker will definitely enjoy it.

I haven't heard of the heard 3 and much to my eternal shame I have never read an Orwell book so about time I started.

max_power

Literally just finished Catch 22 on holidays, took about 3 days. Found it a bit hard to get into but once I did I was gripped, very funny too imo.

Daithio

cooker3 wrote: »

So I just finished the Dice Man this morning. I got through the final 200 pages over the course of the last 10 hours in between Ipokers various disconections..... It's at this point I realise how much I suck at english. A Lloydesque review this shall not be.

I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was genuinely thought provoking although I suspect I haven't fully explored the themes and ideas expressed in the way I thought I might do while reading it if that makes sense.

It had some real laugh out loud moments

"Since among his many roles he was Saint Simeon Stylites, Greta Garbo, a three-year old child and Jack the Ripper, the members of his family deserve a lot of credit for their psychological maturity. May they rest in peace"

Or when

the dice decided he has to leave Lil and the kids forever and next chapter just says "How about that"

That made me chuckle.

Looking forward to what others think.

As for the other books. I already read fooled by randomness and Catch 22. I have to say I really struggled to read Catch 22. I couldn't go more then 30 pages without having to stop which considering this version was 500 odd pages long made it a long read. He kept replaying the same scenes again and I found it quite disjointed and struggling to figure out what was going on and who everybody was. There was a rather huge set of characters (kind of like Band of Brothers but possibly that is the point) There was some great characters in it. I particularly enjoyed Major Major. But yeah I don't think I could read it again.
.

Normally I think it's bull**** when people say you need to read/ watch something twice, but honestly, the second time I read catch 22 I enjoyed it so much more. Give it another shot.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

fatguy

I finished "The Diceman" this weekend. SPOILERS:



I thoroughly enjoyed the story and the ideas explored within. Right now my biggest concern is a curiosity as to how much of it was fact and how much was fiction. Certain points in the story really do seem like factual accounts of events, while others are blatant adolescent fantasies of how things might have gone, with plenty of varying elements in between.

I find the idea of a Dicelife intriguing, in that it allows a person to explore ideas, personalities and actions that would normally be suppressed or overwritten by the morals and mores of society. The ability to explore aspects of your personality that are normally repressed, combined with a newfound ability throw yourself into new experiences should in theory result in a more rounded, well-balanced individual.

However, Rhinehart's desire for self-destruction is what initially led him to the dice. This manifests itself in the options he gives the dice, and you can clearly see a cycle of destruction and creation within the story. When he is unsettled he creates wilder options for the dice, and allows the dice to make more and more decisions in his life. When he is working towards a concrete goal, when he has a dice-command that he really approves of, or when he is genuinely happy with the status quo, he deliberately rolls the dice less and creates more positive options.

At times it seems like Rhinehart is not completely commited to his diceliving principles, and at others it seems like he destroys himself gladly and with abandon.

Overall I think he demonstrates only that a dicelife is a rollercoaster. The sort of person who would be attracted to a dicelife is exactly the sort of person who would be unable to control it. The impracticality of it was overwhelming. For a $50/hr phsychiatrist and successful stock market investor, the over-riding driver of society, money, is a non-issue. But for most people any kind of long-term, unsponsored dicelife would inevitably result in destitution. But such concerns are glossed over with throwaway explanations in the story.


The book was obviously heavily influenced by the likes of Kerouac's "On the Road" and Heller's "Catch-22". The former as an exploration of self-discovery via subculture, and the second in its random, patchwork writing style. The scientific aspect was heavily reminiscent of Rhinehart's peer, Hunter S Thompson. Both Thompson and Rhinehart delight in using their legitimate careers to justify, fund and promote their outrageous lifestyles. The Diceman most definitely influenced other similiar rebirth-through-self-destruction stories such as Fight Club.

Overall, the idea certainly gave me a lot of food for thought, and I enjoyed reading the story as a thought experiment, but I don't think I'll be taking up the dice just yet.

The Snapper

^^

Well done, excellent post, I feel under pressure given it's quality:)

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

fatguy = end discussion!

Loved the bit where he was trying to kill the guy.

I actually tried out diceliving for a few days after finishing the book. Just for some simple things and definitely nothing too crazy. Always included some 'bad options' as per the principles. Ended up quite fun. It would definitely be useful for someone who doesn't think about all the options that life presents them. I struggled a bit coming up with six options for even simple things like 'What will i do on Saturday night?' (which was a bit scary)

AdMMM

College repeats have pretty much handicapped my ability to do anything with my time (other than browse Boards that is). I probably won't get the book finished in the alloted time. This does give me the advantage of being able to splice together other peoples reviews though

cooker3

Nice review fatguy. You encapsulated my thoughts better then I could emn well think them!

BobSloane

Excellent review fatguy! Now for a much more illiterate one. :)SPOILERS

Finished dice man this evening.I read it in a few bursts which meant I often went 5-6 days without reading any of it which is probably not an ideal way to approach any book - particularly one where characters get re-introduced after long absences.
Reasonably enjoyable although it got absurd at times.
The re-introduction of Linda was one of my favourite parts along with his defenses against authority figures(the police,the PANY board).Found the paraphrased bible stuff from the book of the die a bit tedious and felt that the murder dice choice while initially exciting transpired to be a cop out.
i.e. When he decided to try to murder someone it happened to pick the nastiest character in the book, the child rapist
Some of the sex stuff got a bit lol as well - particularly the section with Gina.
Somewhere along the way the book seemed to cross over from the possible/believable to the ridiculous/unbelievable.
Probably the turning point was the party where he was changing roles every few mins and finished up in the jacks raping the two women.Maybe the second half of the book was supposed to get exageratedly ridiculous as some kind of psychiatry satire or something?
Anyone else reminded of Brando from apocalypse now in the tv show bit at the end? The colonel kurtz image popped into my head anyway. The End

Icarus152

I have a 5 chapter rule which I try to follow with all books.If I'm still laboring with by the 5th chapter,I move on to the next book.I'm afraid I barely made it to the 5th one with Diceman.

As I say,I didn't finish the book so maybe I'm not quite entitled to discuss it,but I'm kinda with Bobsloane on the ludicrous nature of most of it.I stoped reading pretty soon after he rapes his wife's friend.What? she enjoyed being raped.Is it me or is that offensive and degrading towards women?

The only positive for me was the underlying,original concept of the book i.e. making dice based decisions.My friend is getting married soon and we'll probably incorporate this on the stag.

This book is, without fear or favour, one of the greatest wastes of paper I have ever been unfortunate enough to read.

I found three exceptional things about this book. The concept is exceptionally original, the writing is exceptionally poor and the overall effect is exceptionally underwhelming. I wanted to like this book. I really did. I just couldn't. I have never struggled to finish a book before, no matter what it was I was reading but I found myself so disenchanted by the characters that I just didn't care anymore.

Rheinhart himself is thoroughly unlikeable while his general premise, that the more enlightened followers of his theory become wholly happier people because of it, is both self-serving and counter intuitive to the point that the reader cannot accept it. Certainly Rheinhart himself might argue, in (ironically) a circular argument as perfect as Freud's theory of denial ("You're in denial", "No I'm not" "See, told you") that the reader is so set in his patterns that the concept of pure randomness, the Dicelife, is anathema to him and it offends the social programming that resides, admittedly, within us all. Rather it is Rheinhart's inability to write a novel capable of capturing the imagination beyond the concept it is based upon (like a Charlie Kauffman film) that leaves the reader cold.

I was weary of any novel upon whose cover one saw the endorsement of "Loaded" magazine. I was annoyingly proven correct. This is a vile piece of work which delights in rape and murder without any underlying value whatsoever. The only reason I am glad I have read it is so that I might discourage others from ever placing a hand upon the thing in future.

YULETIRED

I don't agree it's quite as bad as you say kayroo but it is disappointing that ye picked this one to start with. However I picked up some gems from the lists sent in from others in this thread.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

Deleted User wrote: »

This is a vile piece of work which delights in rape and murder without any underlying value whatsoever.

Wat? These are now bad things?

Seriously, i thought these were some of the best bits.

(you would definitely not want to read 'Knockemstiff' by Donald Ray Pollack)

CourierCollie

Deleted User wrote: »

The only reason I am glad I have read it is so that I might discourage others from ever placing a hand upon the thing in future.

I hope you're kidding with this last bit. Fair enough if you are giving recommendations to someone who only reads one novel a year.

YULETIRED

YULETIRED wrote: »

I don't agree it's quite as bad as you say kayroo but it is disappointing that ye picked this one to start with. However I picked up some gems from the lists sent in from others in this thread.

There are some beauties in there alright. I am really enjoying Fooled By Randomness actually.

CourierCollie wrote: »

I hope you're kidding with this last bit. Fair enough if you are giving recommendations to someone who only reads one novel a year.

Meh, I wouldn't normally discourage anyone from reading anything but if someone asked me if it was worth reading I would give them a resounding no. The book is, simply, drivel.

Icarus152

I'm a bit fuzzy on our structure.There was an either/or choice this month (diceman and randomness),right?

So when do we pick/start the next one? Isn't the first month almost up?

phantom_lord

Deleted User wrote: »

This is a vile piece of work which delights in rape and murder without any underlying value whatsoever.

i think your review is unduly harsh, this line in particular, both of the things you mentioned were pretty mild and were very tongue-in-cheek imo. i enjoyed the book, although the second half was significently weaker than the start.

El Stuntman

Deleted User wrote: »

There are some beauties in there alright. I am really enjoying Fooled By Randomness actually.

read that on a plane last week, great book and highly original thinking but man, I'm guessing that you'd be desperately tempted to kick him in the head if you met him in person :pac: