So, what you playing at the mo? Retro Edition

johnny_ultimate

I'd argue, but my keyboard is covered in coco pops.

All I'll say is - ssssppprrriiinnnnggg!

o1s1n

Meh, personal choice I guess. I'm really not a fan of post Snes Nintendo controllers. Didn't like the shape and reach on the GC buttons, the depth of the shoulder buttons, the analog stick tops seemed too small with horrible texture (which really doesn't help stop thumb slippage).

Plus as I was saying, the analog sticks don't seem to have lasted...a lot of the ones I've come across have gone the way of the N64 sticks.

Retr0gamer

If you want a bad controller for thumb slippage then try playing Gitaroo Man with the PS2 controller, it's horrible. It's like trying to slice a loaf of bread with a grenade.

johnny_ultimate

Or an FPS on a dualshock controller. It's telling that they usually default map shoot to L1 and R1 as opposed to the triggers.

And then there's L3 / R3. Shudder.

o1s1n

Retr0gamer wrote: »

If you want a bad controller for thumb slippage then try playing Gitaroo Man with the PS2 controller, it's horrible. It's like trying to slice a loaf of bread with a grenade.

I've always found the rubberized grip on a ps2 thumb stick to be great for anti thumb slippage. The problem with those sticks though is they made them convex.The winning combination would be that rubberized finish on the original ps1 analog concave sticks..shame Sony never combined the two.

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Or an FPS on a dualshock controller. It's telling that they usually default map shoot to L1 and R1 as opposed to the triggers.

And then there's L3 / R3. Shudder.

Ah here, when comparing pads, the last thing in the world you should do is bring FPS into it

That's like comparing keyboards for platform games! I quite like the IBM Model M for Super Meat Boy myself :pac:

Retr0gamer

As I said, go play gitaroo man and then come back to me and tell me that the PS2 controller has amazing antithumb slippage.

o1s1n

I didn't say it did. I said the rubberized grip is good for anti thumb slippage but it's ruined by the convex shape.

Oh and no thanks on Gitaroo Man. I'm not into masochistic rhythm games

johnny_ultimate

o1s1n wrote: »

Ah here, when comparing pads, the last thing in the world you should do is bring FPS into it

That's like comparing keyboards for platform games! I quite like the IBM Model M for Super Meat Boy myself :pac:

Indeed, but given the 360 controller is a notable second best for all things first person, the weaknesses of the PS3 pad are much more obvious. The only game I'd turn to the PS3 pad over the 360 for would be Tony Hawks Pro Skater (back when it was good) or fighting games (you know, if you're foolish enough not to have a stick :pac:). Anything else feels far smoother on the 360 pad - better buttons, triggers that are actually triggers, concave analogue sticks. Crappy D-Pad, though.

o1s1n

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Indeed, but given the 360 controller is a notable second best for all things first person, the weaknesses of the PS3 pad are much more obvious. The only game I'd turn to the PS3 pad over the 360 for would be Tony Hawks Pro Skater (back when it was good) or fighting games (you know, if you're foolish enough not to have a stick :pac:). Anything else feels far smoother on the 360 pad - better buttons, triggers that are actually triggers, concave analogue sticks. Crappy D-Pad, though.

Functionally, the Playstation controller is an absolute joke when compared to the 360 pad. Sony just hung onto it as it's an iconic design and over the years so many peoples hands have been mangled into a shape that's able to use them. The 360 sticks are really lovely. One of the best designs ever I reckon.

With fighters (and D pads I am assuming) you're just trying to figure out which is the least ****. They're both unforgivingly awful. I'd rather stick pin is my eyes than use a Playstation D pad for anything which requires circular movements. And it's still better than the 360 one!

Andrew76

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

I can feel some regulars choking on there coco pops as we speak!

I just assumed yee GC controller hating folk are just trolling, is today national troll day maybe?

@o1s1n: :eek:

Snes controllers were cool but with the need for extra buttons in later generations the GC handled it best imo.

johnny_ultimate

Well even shmups are surprisingly functional with the Xbox analogue sticks - spending a lot of time with Death Smiles v1.1 and MBL has shown that they're not the worst for the job. Again, stick is ideal, but they're certainly pretty wonderful analogue sticks in the overall scheme of things.

Retr0gamer

Ikaruga on the GC feels so right.

o1s1n

Andrew76 wrote: »

I just assumed yee GC controller hating folk are just trolling, is today national troll day maybe?

@o1s1n: :eek:

Snes controllers were cool but with the need for extra buttons in later generations the GC handled it best imo.

I just found with the GC they wen't too far down the child's toy route. And it's reflected in how the pad feels. Sure, they needed to expand from the Snes pad, but for me it would have been a more comfortable controller if they'd kept more of its key features.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Ikaruga on the GC feels so right.

GTFO!

johnny_ultimate

The GC controller is the QWERTY keyboard of game controllers.

Retr0gamer

o1s1n wrote: »

GTFO!

I beat it on the GC. The analogue stick and the A and B buttons suited the game perfectly.

o1s1n

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

The GC controller is the QWERTY keyboard of game controllers.

Yes, a VTECH QWERTY keyboard

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I beat it on the GC. The analogue stick and the A and B buttons suited the game perfectly.

That's more down to you being a freak of nature than anything else.

Retr0gamer

Your Ikaruga skills say otherwise. Yes I did just go there :P

o1s1n

I've never played the Gamecube version. It must be easier :pac:

Retr0gamer

Go back to playing Thrill Kill on your noobpad :pac: :P

o1s1n

Meow!

Kittie's got claws.

NeoKubrick

o1s1n wrote: »

Yes, a VTECH QWERTY keyboard

That's not off-the-mark. The button layout is designed for people who slide or mash buttons which is the style of input for most children and for roughly half of adult players. Playstation and Xbox were designed for the other half who precisely punch in input.

ghostchant

NeoKubrick wrote: »

That's not off-the-mark. The button layout is designed for people who slide or mash buttons which is the style of input for most children and for roughly half of adult players. Playstation and Xbox were designed for the other half who precisely punch in input.

As a 'well trained' tekken button-masher (the only game I find button mashing to improve my play), I find the playstation pad to be perfectly suited to the practice. The gamecube pad, with its differently sized buttons, only really allows for A/B button mashing imo. X and Y are placed just far enough away. GC controller is def my favourite post 16-bit era controller.

o1s1n

I rather the Dreamcast pad to the GC one myself. I know it's only limited to the one analog stick, but I much prefer the action on the buttons and stick. Lovely D pad too.

Dr Bob

meh ..its all been downhill since the Konix Speedking in my opnion....

ghostchant

o1s1n wrote: »

I rather the Dreamcast pad to the GC one myself. I know it's only limited to the one analog stick, but I much prefer the action on the buttons and stick. Lovely D pad too.

I'm a fan of the DC pad too, though not in love with the fact that the cable is attached to the bottom of the pad instead of the top. I know it's necessary due to the VMU etc slots up top though.

NeoKubrick

ghostchant wrote: »

As a 'well trained' tekken button-masher (the only game I find button mashing to improve my play), I find the playstation pad to be perfectly suited to the practice. The gamecube pad, with its differently sized buttons, only really allows for A/B button mashing imo. X and Y are placed just far enough away. GC controller is def my favourite post 16-bit era controller.

Well, all controllers are designed based upon all players' specific styles of using a controller. Playstation, Xbox and Dreamcast (!) controllers are more to the 'precise' end of the spectrum: symmetrical buttons. Gamecube controller is more to the 'slide' or 'mash' end of the spectrum: asymmetrical buttons. That does not mean that one controller nerfs one player's use; it means that one controller is easier for one use than another.

The GameCube controller has an oversized 'A' button which is designed as a rest for the thumb. So, that the player only has to tilt his thumb to press any of the other buttons, which is more suited to players who slide rather than precisely punch.

o1s1n

ghostchant wrote: »

I'm a fan of the DC pad too, though not in love with the fact that the cable is attached to the bottom of the pad instead of the top. I know it's necessary due to the VMU etc slots up top though.

Hah, I forgot about that. Drives me mental! There's a little notch on the top of the pad you can run the cable through so it gives the impression that it's coming out of the top. Doesn't work 100% though

johnny_ultimate

The GC pad's buttons are designed based on the regularity of use and their usefulness. So the 'B' button is smaller than the 'A' as it's designed to be a sub-button. They're also better defined shape wise, clearly separate buttons. Compare it to the PS pad and even the 360 where they aren't well defined - I'd imagine someone unfamiliar with pads would quickly adjust to the GC pad whereas there's be a lot of 'looking down' on a PS pad as they get adjusted to triangle x circle and square. Admittedly the x button is well positioned on the PS pad but that's almost accidental - look how Japan have more of a fondness for 'circle' as the 'main' button.

All controllers TBH are good at something. Some are more specific - only a handful of genres truly benefit from the dualshock, while GC and 360 have their weaknesses but are much more adaptable overall.

And even with a convex design, the analogue stick is still a load of win on GC with it's octagonal awesome.

ghostchant

NeoKubrick wrote: »

Well, all controllers are designed based upon all players' specific styles of using a controller. Playstation, Xbox and Dreamcast (!) controllers are more to the 'precise' end of the spectrum: symmetrical buttons. Gamecube controller is more to the 'slide' or 'mash' end of the spectrum: asymmetrical buttons. That does not mean that one controller nerfs one player's use; it means that one controller is easier for one use than another.

The GameCube controller has an oversized 'A' button which is designed as a rest for the thumb. So, that the player only has to tilt his thumb to press any of the other buttons, which is more suited to players who slide rather than precisely punch.

Fair enough. I always assumed that having the 'A' button centred is because of the frequency of use (as johnny mentioned above); Assuming that every second button input was the 'A' button, it would make sense for it to be the neutral/resting position for you thumb, with every second input being one of the surrounding buttons. I wouldn't consider it to be less precise and more "mashy" as a result.

Retr0gamer

I'm pretty sure that the large 'A' button of the GC controller was a product of how successful the context sensitive 'A' button of Ocarina of Time was. 'A' was the most used button and since it was context sensitive it was used for most of the actions in the game. Best to make the 'A' button the biggest since it is used the most. The 'b' button is smaller and used less but is easily accessible with your thumb. The 'x' and 'y' buttions are also easily accessbile but I won't lie, I think they are too close and I sometimes mixed them up in games like Metroid Prime, a bit of bad design there. Ocarina of Time wasn't the first game with a single context sensitive button but it was the one that explored their use the most and brought it to the eyes of the developers. Back in 1998 it was a really big deal and the game was celebrated for it's use. So the GC controller was designed around the control scheme of OoT being a standard for 3D games.

o1s1n

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that the large 'A' button of the GC controller was a product of how successful the context sensitive 'A' button of Ocarina of Time was. 'A' was the most used button and since it was context sensitive it was used for most of the actions in the game. Best to make the 'A' button the biggest since it is used the most. The 'b' button is smaller and used less but is easily accessible with your thumb. The 'x' and 'y' buttions are also easily accessbile but I won't lie, I think they are too close and I sometimes mixed them up in games like Metroid Prime, a bit of bad design there. Ocarina of Time wasn't the first game with a single context sensitive button but it was the one that explored their use the most and brought it to the eyes of the developers. Back in 1998 it was a really big deal and the game was celebrated for it's use. So the GC controller was designed around the control scheme of OoT being a standard for 3D games.

Speaking of which, I was playing OOT earlier and was going to rant about that somewhere. The context sensitive A button is one of the biggest dislikes I have for the game. It drove me mental when the game came out and it still does. If I'm running around a big opening enviornment, I want to jump on command. Why the **** would I want to roll?!.

Hey, look at that big block. I want to push it. No Link, I said PUSH IT. WHY THE **** ARE YOU CLIMBING IT?! STOP CLIMING THE BLOCK!

Retr0gamer

Yep took a while to iron out the kinks in the system The 1up review was complaning that they didn't try to improve it.

CiDeRmAn

ZeldaOoT, comments seem to range from

"They changed too much! Useless feckers, no respect for classic 3D adventuring!"
to
"The changed too little! Useless feckers, no respect for advances in 3D adventuring!"

so, to sum up, Nintendo cannot win!

Looking forward to a future new Zelda title for the 3DS, although perhaps Majoras Mask 3D is a good bet for the future?
Now they've an engine would it be too much to ask Rare and Ninty to make up and let Jet Force Gemini and Blast Corps make it to the system?

Atavan-Halen

Hmm don't know whether to start Panzer Dragoon Orta or pick up in Shenmue again during the week, suggestions?

Andrew76

atavan-halen wrote: »

Hmm don't know whether to start Panzer Dragoon Orta or pick up in Shenmue again during the week, suggestions?

Get some sleep and worry about it in the morning.

Continue Shenmue I say.

NeoKubrick

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

The GC pad's buttons are designed based on the regularity of use and their usefulness. So the 'B' button is smaller than the 'A' as it's designed to be a sub-button. [...]

The design is based upon how players use controllers and input; the regularity of use of buttons and the buttons' usefulness would be a secondary issue to how a player uses a controller. The 'A' button is oversized to indicate the primary button and encourage players to rest their thumb on that button (a minor consideration would be that it is easier to hit, too): the solution complements and reinforce both. The other buttons are asymmetric and radial and close proximity to the oversized 'A' button to enables players to easily slide/tilt/roll/mash their thumb over to those buttons.

And unless you remembered your coordinate geometry or are a games or graphics programmer, the 'X' and 'Y' buttons were always mixed-up by players.

Retr0gamer wrote:

I'm pretty sure that the large 'A' button of the GC controller was a product of how successful the context sensitive 'A' button of Ocarina of Time was. [...] So the GC controller was designed around the control scheme of OoT being a standard for 3D games.

The main objective of the design of the GameCube controller was accessibility: the oversized 'A' button was a solution to that for the above reasons.

Sparks43

Phoenix Wright again for the umpteenth time


I still cry when

Mia dies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGW-gugLZ0M

Pyongyang

Bomberman on the PC Engine!

The good woman was out last night so it was singlesville only for me. Going to hook up the 'tap tonight and see if I can entice her to a game or seven.

o1s1n

Anyone playing OOT 3D at the moment? I sunk a good few hours into it last night. It's a joy. The controls are very well put together and the 3D really works great.

I was never a big fan of 3rd person platforming due to trying to judge distances you're jumping towards. With the 3D on it just feels right.

CiDeRmAn

Oh it's lovely alright, only issue I have is that I was playing on a train trip to Kilkenny the other day and the movement of the train kept shifting the view of the screen slightly and destroyed the 3D effect.
The very shiny screen is also a pain for reflections, your eyes wind up trying to focus on the physical screen in front, the game draw distance via the 3D tech in the screen and the sunlit world behind the reflection of yourself, now if that don't give headaches I don't know what will!

o1s1n

You're right there, 3D and public transport do not mix. Was trying it out on a bus last week and every time I went over a bump in the road I'd lose it and start getting that double vision effect. Not nice!

As for the shine, some of it comes off the screen itself, but a lot of it also comes from the bezel around it. It's not too annoying with 3D off, but with it on your brain really doesn't like it. Someone needs to release some matt cover to place over the bezel.

Andrew76

It's bad enough that the main selling point of the device only works when you stay completely still but it beggars belief Nintendo didn't do something about those screen reflections, unless they thought literally seeing yourself on the screen was a new level of immersion. :rolleyes:

o1s1n

Andrew76 wrote: »

It's bad enough that the main selling point of the device only works when you stay completely still but it beggars belief Nintendo didn't do something about those screen reflections, unless they thought literally seeing yourself on the screen was a new level of immersion. :rolleyes:

I can forgive the viewing angle as it works perfectly while I'm at home (I've no real interest in using 3D while on the move anyway).

But the reflection? Maybe the screen needs some extra film over it for the
3D, but the bezel reflection issue shouldn't exist.

But anyway, as for OOT, Andrew - I think I remember you saying OOT was your favourite game ever made? If so, you're going to absolutely love this. In fact I know that if it was my own favourite game ever made it would make the 3DS an instant buy. Even without it being my favourite game ever it would make the system an instant buy!

johnny_ultimate

o1s1n wrote: »

Even without it being my favourite game ever it would make the system an instant buy!

I don't know, I like (love?) Ocarina and all but fundamentally it's still the same game with a coat of paint. A system seller it is not, given that I have various other formats I could play the game in right now if I wanted to with none of the expense.

Not to say I don't appreciate the re-release, and I'm sure I'll pick it up when my 3DS arrives. It's just I'd struggle to call a game one can get their hands on on at least three other formats a system seller i.e. one I'd go a month without discretionary expenditure to buy (Super Mario Galaxy was the last true system seller for me). It's the new entries in existing IPs that will truly drive the 3DS from a curiosity to a console of considerable worth.

o1s1n

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I don't know, I like (love?) Ocarina and all but fundamentally it's still the same game with a coat of paint. A system seller it is not, given that I have various other formats I could play the game in right now if I wanted to with none of the expense.

Not to say I don't appreciate the re-release, and I'm sure I'll pick it up when my 3DS arrives. It's just I'd struggle to call a game one can get their hands on on at least three other formats a system seller i.e. one I'd go a month without discretionary expenditure to buy (Super Mario Galaxy was the last true system seller for me). It's the new entries in existing IPs that will truly drive the 3DS from a curiosity to a console of considerable worth.

The term 'system seller' can be used in a couple of different ways. My above post was personal, in that if I didn't have a 3DS and played OOT 3D for a few hours on someone elses console, it would be a system seller for me.

Up until now I haven't really experienced any games on the console that put the 3D effect to any other use than what we see in 3D film. With OOT 3D though, it actually had a use beyond 'wow, that looks cool!'. A use that's making aspects of a game I previously found irksome really very enjoyable.

I agree with you that it's not a system seller in the sense that a new game in a popular series would be. But for me it's the first game that really puts the systems capabilities to a functional use.

Andrew76

o1s1n wrote: »

But anyway, as for OOT, Andrew - I think I remember you saying OOT was your favourite game ever made? If so, you're going to absolutely love this. In fact I know that if it was my own favourite game ever made it would make the 3DS an instant buy. Even without it being my favourite game ever it would make the system an instant buy!

You're spot on, OOT is my favourite game of all even though I haven't been back to it in a long long time. It's among a small list of games that have nothing but good memories for me.

But like Mr. Ultimate says, I just can't stomach forking out for something I already have a few times (Wind Waker discs), well, forking out the guts of 300 quid just to play something I already have. Tis a pain as I've always wanted the ability to play N64 games on a handheld which 3DS might enable? Actually what intrigued me most about the 3DS was those videos of the GB games running on it, then I read your screen reflection complaints in another thread and I was put right off again. I'm not really sure the system is for me tbh since I seem to lean more towards wanting to play old games rather than new, maybe I need to see the 3D effect to be brainwashed. :pac: It'll be a year or two before I get on board I think.

o1s1n

If you play your handhelds mostly at home then the screen reflection issue isn't really there. It's just when you're out and about and there's strong daylight. So unless you plan on using it on the move a lot on busses and transport with big open windows then I wouldn't worry about that aspect.

However, like all Nintendo handhelds, you're probably better off waiting a while anyway for the second version. It'll probably have far better battery life, slimmer and have a better viewing angle!

Andrew76

o1s1n wrote: »

If you play your handhelds mostly at home then the screen reflection issue isn't really there. It's just when you're out and about and there's strong daylight. So unless you plan on using it on the move a lot on busses and transport with big open windows then I wouldn't worry about that aspect.

Sssssshhhhh with those truths you speak of! (Yes I would most likely never play it outside the house or on bouncy sunlit public transport. Still not getting one.)

Retr0gamer

To be honest I get the shiny screen announce from every handheld console I own. The only one I don't get it from is the original GBA which actually works best with strong sunlight.

o1s1n

Retr0gamer wrote: »

To be honest I get the shiny screen announce from every handheld console I own. The only one I don't get it from is the original GBA which actually works best with strong sunlight.

Missing the point somewhat :P

The shiny screen effect is fine for 2D gaming. It becomes an issue when you're trying to play in 3D and your eyes don't know what the hell to be focusing on!