Are people underestimating Man City?

mayordenis

anyone who writes city off is misguided and the idea there top aren't good enough is utter guff.

Barry, Dejong, Kompany, Johnson Ireland, Robinho, Santa Cruz, Tevez, Adebayor, Wright-Philips, Petrov, Elano and even Bellamy is the best Midfield and Attacking options anyone has - whether they can get the right balance is one thing but the amount of quality there is unquestionable.
Arguably the best Keeper the League has ever seen.
Onouha who is the best young defender in the league.

there are definately worth a snakey €5 in the bookies.

Mr.Nice Guy

Sometimes you need more than quality players. Look at Tottenham last year. Who would have predicted that they would end up in the relegation places in the early stages? Dressing room unrest can be a major problem and I honestly think Sparky will be sacked this season. So many egos in that dressing room.

I reckon they'll get a more well known manager in as a replacement and then finish up in fifth.

JPA

mayordenis wrote: »

anyone who writes city off is misguided and the idea there top aren't good enough is utter guff.

Barry, Dejong, Kompany, Johnson Ireland, Robinho, Santa Cruz, Tevez, Adebayor, Wright-Philips, Petrov, Elano and even Bellamy is the best Midfield and Attacking options anyone has - whether they can get the right balance is one thing but the amount of quality there is unquestionable.
Arguably the best Keeper the League has ever seen.
Onouha who is the best young defender in the league.

there are definately worth a snakey €5 in the bookies.

There's underestimating and then there's over estimating.

Arguably the best Keeper the League has ever seen.

What? What???

rossie1977

if alex ferguson or jose mourinho was in charge then maybe they would be worth an each bet

city conceded 50 goals in the league last season, 18 in the league, from 7 february until 24 may (givens arrival), scoring goals wasn't their problem last season. a good season for city would be to qualify for the uefa cup so top 6 finish (or whatever they call it now) and maybe winning either the fa or league cup

Bubs101

City's problem is the same as Fulham's problem. Regardless of their team, if they can't pick up anything away from home then they can't progress

flahavaj

Bubs101 wrote: »

City's problem is the same as Fulham's problem. Regardless of their team, if they can't pick up anything away from home then they can't progress

Exactly. Is Robinho going to perform more consistently away from home this year for example? Also could any City fans who saw them play on a weekly basis give their assessment of Robinho's performance over the season? From what I saw, I would have said he was a litle diasppointing given the furore that surrounded his signing?

PDN

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

They are too good not to be pushing hard at the 4th - 6th range.

They are 'too good to go down' - like Newcastle were last season.

opr

PDN wrote: »

They are 'too good to go down' - like Newcastle were last season.

In fairness Newcastle in "name" may have felt this. The team itself was not in any way too good to go down and this was pointed out by many from a distance out last season.

Its the other way around in city's case. People maybe feel in "name" they won't figure in the top four but the squad of players they are putting together is looking like it could sing a different tune.

Opr

Paparazzo

JPA wrote: »

What? What???

+10000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Given is a decent keeper and all that, but COME ON!

mayordenis

JPA wrote: »

There's underestimating and then there's over estimating.



What? What???

Shay Given, I reckon you must of heard of him?
Playing in the Premier League for about 15 years, most of that time he's been considered one of the best keepers in world.
But yea grand whatever.

mayordenis

Paparazzo wrote: »

+10000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Given is a decent keeper and all that, but COME ON!

Schmeichel is the only one who was consistintly at a really top level for a long time,
David James who I have plenty of time for has had many ups and downs as had Brad Friedel,
Reina and Cech are probably the best now but both make the odd error and couldn't exactly say they have the potential to put in 10-15 years of top goalkeeping in a row.
Who does that leave? vds? no. Seaman? Southall? they're about the only other credible candidates.

So really what I mean to say, is don't give me that ****e.

flahavaj

mayordenis wrote: »

Shay Given, I reckon you must of heard of him?
Playing in the Premier League for about 15 years, most of that time he's been considered one of the best keepers in world.
But yea grand whatever.

Exaggerate much!? Try 12 years in the Prem btw.

mayordenis

flahavaj wrote: »

Exaggerate much!? Try 12 years in the Prem btw.

wow great response, I don't mind being wrong I do have a problem with people coming in and simply saying.


LOLOLO!!! 121212 WRONG!LOLZZZ EXAGERATORZ tO THE LOLZ

Bubs101

No great keeper that good concedes that many goals. I don't care how many acrobatic and great saves he makes but he conceded so so so many. Personally I think that's down to the fact he can't marshall a defence to save his life which is an integral part of keeping.

orourkeda

Weren't we saying this about spurs last year. We'll just have to wait and see. I dont think they are a top 4 team at the moment still considering their outlay the minimum they'll expect is a european spot.

A huge improvement in their away form is essential as they were p*ss poor on the road last season. Depends on how much business Villa, Everton and spurs do between now and the end of August also.

I dare say that Mark Hughes' Man Management skills will be tested to the Limit. They'll have gone from going almost as long as Newcastle without winning a trophy to expecting CL qualification very quickly.

Paparazzo

mayordenis wrote: »

Shay Given, I reckon you must of heard of him?
Playing in the Premier League for about 15 years, most of that time he's been considered one of the best keepers in world.
But yea grand whatever.

Hold on, we know who Shay Given is. But you said:

mayordenis wrote: »

Arguably the best Keeper the League has ever seen.

Now, considering Peter Schmeichel has played in the same league, I'd like to hear the argument that says Shay is better than Schmeichel!:D If Shay is better, he's a candidate for the best keeper of all time!

flahavaj

mayordenis wrote: »

wow great response, I don't mind being wrong I do have a problem with people coming in and simply saying.


LOLOLO!!! 121212 WRONG!LOLZZZ EXAGERATORZ tO THE LOLZ

I didn't say anything of the short, mayordenis; again total overexaggeration on your part.

Its not as if you made any attempt to back up your extremely bold original statement with any evidence or proper attempt at an argument, now is it?:rolleyes:

Next time, take a deep breath before you type.

mayordenis

lol I reckon if shay given had of joined utd and played for 8 years he'd be considered at least as good as schmeichel,
But hey I'm wrong, all the big clubs haven't been sniffing about him for the last decade.
I don't have to back that he's arguably the best that's played in the league, He's one of select few keepers in the league that have been top top quality, if you want to deny that you have a chip on your shoulder.

flahavaj

Bubs101 wrote: »

No great keeper that good concedes that many goals. I don't care how many acrobatic and great saves he makes but he conceded so so so many. Personally I think that's down to the fact he can't marshall a defence to save his life which is an integral part of keeping.

Also keepers playing for rubbish teams invariably look better becsuse of the sheer volume of saves they're forced to make.

Being a goalkeeper for a top team requires a whole different set of skills. For one theres the fact that the keeper at a top club may only be called upon a coulpe of times in a game to make a save thats the difference between 1 point and three, due to the fact that his team will dominate the majority of matches as well as having the protection of a top defence. It takes unbelievable mental strength and concentration to stay focused for that period of time and still be able to produce the goods.

Seeing as how Shay has ever been in that position of playing for a top team, challenging for titles on a regular basis, its unfair and indeed impossible to judge him at that level.

Esse85

City will start off great, they'll be awesome at home, then when they fall behind to the like of Stoke, Hull, who's gonna rally the team and grab the game by the scruff of the neck.

I think the uncertainty of the manager after a few defeats will be in players minds too. Top 7 finish I reckon.

flahavaj

mayordenis wrote: »

lol I reckon if shay given had of joined utd and played for 8 years he'd be considered at least as good as schmeichel,
But hey I'm wrong, all the big clubs haven't been sniffing about him for the last decade.
I don't have to back that he's arguably the best that's played in the league,

You're right you don't have to back it up. But its a bit rich to make a childish comment a few minutes latercomplaining when someone else doesn't back their point up!:rolleyes:

He's one of select few keepers in the league that have been top top quality, if you want to deny that you have a chip on your shoulder.

Does everyone that doesn't share your viewpoint have a chip on their shoulder?

mayordenis

flahavaj wrote: »

Does everyone that doesn't share your viewpoint have a chip on their shoulder?

On this one I'd have to say so.
It's just very funny that all over the world, by every top manager and pretty much everyone who's watched him play thinks he's world class and on here I'm listening to people say it's a ridiculous to say he's arguably (remember that all important word) the best in the 18 years this league has existed.

rossie1977

mayordenis wrote: »

Reina and Cech are probably the best now but both make the odd error and couldn't exactly say they have the potential to put in 10-15 years of top goalkeeping in a row.

odd error, name me a goalkeeper through time who didn't make the odd error EVERY season

i don't see why the likes of reina or cech don't have the potential to put in 10-15 years of top goalkeeping in a row, reina is 26 so seven years givens junior, he has already played 7 full seasons in the top division of the two best leagues in europe (4 at liverpool, 3 at Villarreal) and thats not including the 50 games he played for Barcelonas first team between 2000-02 when he was 18-20 years old, unless he gets a bad injury surely reina has another 10+ years ahead of him at the top level??

mayordenis

rossie1977 wrote: »

odd error, name me a goalkeeper through time who didn't make the odd error EVERY season

i don't see why the likes of reina or cech don't have the potential to put in 10-15 years of top goalkeeping in a row, reina is 26 so seven years givens junior, he has already played 7 full seasons in the top division of the two best leagues in europe (4 at liverpool, 3 at Villarreal) and thats not including the 50 games he played for Barcelonas first team between 2000-02 when he was 18-20 years old, unless he gets a bad injury surely reina has another 10+ years ahead of him at the top level??

Sorry what I meant by that is that you can't exactly say they definately will, for Reina he most likely will leave the league before having a tenure approaching Given's and for Cech most will agree that since the injury he's have the player he was.

Given is one of very few Goalkeepers to be selected in the PFA team of the year twice. But hey he's ****e.

flahavaj

mayordenis wrote: »

On this one I'd have to say so.
It's just very funny that all over the world, by every top manager and pretty much everyone who's watched him play thinks he's world class and on here I'm listening to people say it's a ridiculous to say he's arguably (remember that all important word) the best in the 18 years this league has existed.

Yes, again you're correct, the vital word is arguably. So far, several people, including Bubs, rossie and myself have made perfectly plausible arguments as to why we disagree with you, none of which you have chosen to address,except to say we have chip on our shoulders! If we have a chip sir, then you have a potato!

Bear in mind also you're the same guy who had a minor hissy fit with me only a few short posts ago for not putting forward an argument, yet you persist in ignoring our very valid points. Unreal.

flahavaj

mayordenis wrote: »

Sorry what I meant by that is that you can't exactly say they definately will, for Reina he most likely will leave the league before having a tenure approaching Given's and for Cech most will agree that since the injury he's have the player he was.

Given is one of very few Goalkeepers to be selected in the PFA team of the year twice. But hey he's ****e.

No ones saying hes sh*te. Just that saying hes the best ever in the league is a bit of a stretch. Way to exaggerate yet again.:pac:

mayordenis

flahavaj wrote: »

Bear in mind also you're the same guy who had a minor hissy fit with me only a few short posts ago for not putting forward an argument, yet you persist in ignoring our very valid points. Unreal.

Nobody bar bubs has put anything towards an argument,

The only thing you said was "try 12 years" and "exagerate much!?" if you were to actually make an argument I would love to address it. You could very well make my argument redundant, but you haven't, at all.

population

Xavi6 wrote: »

Barry isn't a top 4 standard player? Really? Why were Liverpool fans disappointed when he didn't sign last year?

No they werent, and they still arent.

flahavaj

mayordenis wrote: »

Nobody bar bubs has put anything towards an argument,

The only thing you said was "try 12 years" and "exagerate much!?" if you were to actually make an argument I would love to address it. You could very well make my argument redundant, but you haven't, at all.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61283992&postcount=70
:rolleyes:

mayordenis

flahavaj wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61283992&postcount=70
:rolleyes:

Ok well I could do with some more of your superb rolleye responses,
So you know newcastle actually were one of the top teams, that during the years he was there they finished in the following positions (amongst others) 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th. And as I said (in a point you failed to address) also picked up the PFA team of the year goalkeeper spot 2 times (Thou hast fallen verily upon thine own sword, thou hast).

Bubs101

If he's so great than why did Man Utd not sign him when they went through the plethora of keepers they did, Arsenal went for Lehman and Almunia, Liverpool to Reina, Chelsea to Cech, Leeds could have signed him at a stage as could have Spurs

Paparazzo

mayordenis wrote: »

On this one I'd have to say so.
It's just very funny that all over the world, by every top manager and pretty much everyone who's watched him play thinks he's world class and on here I'm listening to people say it's a ridiculous to say he's arguably (remember that all important word) the best in the 18 years this league has existed.

OK, you're the only one that seems to think this. But answer this one question: Who would you ther have in your team: Schmeichel during his peak, or Shay Given? I really don't see how anyone could argue this one!

mayordenis

Bubs101 wrote: »

If he's so great than why did Man Utd not sign him when they went through the plethora of keepers they did, Arsenal went for Lehman and Almunia, Liverpool to Reina, Chelsea to Cech, Leeds could have signed him at a stage as could have Spurs

The offers were there, I'm pretty sure everyone know's this definately from Arsenal and United, and he wanted to stick with Newcastle, and he would of continued to stay there had the club not been run into the ground by a few cretins.

flahavaj

mayordenis wrote: »

Ok well I could do with some more of your superb rolleye responses,
So you know newcastle actually were one of the top teams, that during the years he was there they finished in the following positions (amongst others) 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th. And as I said (in a point you failed to address) also picked up the PFA team of the year goalkeeper spot 2 times (Thou hast fallen verily upon thine own sword, thou hast).

I was talking about teams that are challenging for the title, in how many of the years that Shay was there did Newcastle mount a serious title challenge? Perhaps one. They've been a mediocre team at best with a shambolic defence for a very large proportion of his time at the club.

Being selected in the PFA team or even being named PFA Player of the Year is highly dubious material to be basing an argument upon. Look who won the award last year.;)

Bubs101

mayordenis wrote: »

The offers were there, I'm pretty sure everyone know's this definately from Arsenal and United, and he wanted to stick with Newcastle, and he would of continued to stay there had the club not been run into the ground by a few cretins.

He went for money (which all the big 4 have more of than Newcastle), nothing to do with cretins.

mayordenis

Paparazzo wrote: »

OK, you're the only one that seems to think this. But answer this one question: Who would you ther have in your team: Schmeichel during his peak, or Shay Given? I really don't see how anyone could argue this one!

given

Do I win? They have the same amount of appearances I think in the PFA team of the year, I guess that's case closed, I win, woop woop.

flahavaj

mayordenis wrote: »

given

Do I win? They have the same amount of appearances I think in the PFA team of the year, I guess that's case closed, I win, woop woop.

So the Team of the Season and how many times a player has won it is the be all and end all of judging a players ability as far as you're concerned?:eek:

I don't know whether to be shocked at the ridiculousness of your argument or exasperated its sheer stupidity. You MUST be looking for a rise.

mayordenis

flahavaj wrote: »

So the Team of the Season and how many times a player has won it is the be all and end all of judging a players ability as far as you're concerned?:eek:

I don't know whether to be shocked at the ridiculousness of your argument or exasperated its sheer stupidity. You MUST be looking for a rise.

no the last part was a joke. not looking for a rise. hayzues.

Paparazzo

mayordenis wrote: »

given

Do I win? They have the same amount of appearances I think in the PFA team of the year, I guess that's case closed, I win, woop woop.

Seriously? Given? Van der sar has 2 of your awards aswell! I wouldn't put him in the same class as Schmeichel.
If you really think Given is better, fair enough. I'm not a united fan, but I regard Schmeichel as one of the best keepers of all time. Just behind Packie:D

mayordenis

Yea for me of all time it goes

Jagielka
Bonner
Given
Waterveld
Schmiechel

all great on there day.

orourkeda

population wrote: »

Xavi6 wrote: »

Barry isn't a top 4 standard player? Really? Why were Liverpool fans disappointed when he didn't sign last year?

No they werent, and they still arent.

Didnt stop them whining like schoolgirls at the time

Mr.Nice Guy

I think the stick Given has received the last few pages is surprising and unwarranted. I remember when Given had that terrible bowel injury at Newcastle and Harper took over. They began to suffer big time in his absence. Soon as he returned they moved up the table. I remember wondering at the time how they'd cope if he left them. Sure enough they were relegated! In my opinion he won Newcastle significant points each season as most top keepers tend to do and when he was gone they lost that.

With regards to the goals he concedes, would Cech or Van Der Sar etc. fare much better with the defences he's had to work with? I don't think so. Hell there were times when Given had to stop his own defenders from scoring against him. I recall he had to stop one OG last season at Old Trafford with a top reflex save (might have been Beye) and then there's the famous headed save against Bramble.

People shouldn't be fooled by the top four keepers and their records because often they aren't being tested anywhere near as much as other keepers. Last season during Van Der Sar's clean sheet record run for United, Martin Tyler compiled a list of saves per game using Opta stats and found that during United's clean sheet run Van Der Sar was tested the least. He played 12 games and made 19 saves which worked out at an average of 1.58 saves a game. Cech in the same period played 11 games and had to make 27 saves which worked out at an average of 2.45 saves a game. Both keepers were at the lower end of the spectrum along with Reina and Almunia. Given meanwhile in the same period was the second busiest keeper in the league behind Scott Carson of West Brom and in his 10 games had to make a whopping 41 saves. Read more about it here.

The goals against column therefore shouldn't influence the debate too much because Given has had to be called into action more times than his counterparts. If Given was at United and had to make 1 save a game then of course he'd reap the rewards too, but appearances can be deceiving. That's why I felt he was desperately unlucky to miss out on the PFA Team of the Year and I say that as a United fan. I'd say the guy is the best keeper this island has produced since Jennings.

I'm not suggesting Given is the best keeper the Premier League has seen but he is, in my opinion, right up there with the best.

Victor McDade

sportinglife.com wrote:

Tottenham manager Harry Redknapp believes Manchester City are just two signings short of becoming a side capable of challenging for the Premier League title.

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/09/07/24/SOCCER_Tottenham_Redknapp.html

I'd expect something like this from Jamie, not his auld fella

Kirby

Some of you are completely off your rockers. Ireland is blessed to have a keep of Given's quality. England would kill for a keeper as good as him, as would 95% of the other countries out there.

He rarely makes a mistake, has great hands, makes good decisions, is a good shot stopper, has awesome reflexes, has good feet, is quick, and for the smallest keeper in the premiership has a great leap.

The only weakness in his game is coming for crosses, which he chooses not to do because of this. This also means he won't come and flap at the ball and cause a goal like alot of the rest do.

If you cannot see what a good keeper he is, you know feck all about the position. He is a better keeper than VDS, Reina and Almunia who are all given an much easier ride due to their own teams quality.

Schmeichel and Cech pre injury are really the only keepers in recent memory that are better than him. With one or two others being on a par in my opinion. Jaaskelainen would probably be one of them.

Quality is subjective obviously. Player of the year awards and others of their ilk don't tell you the whole story. The poster who claimed that newcastle may have conceded alot of goals because he couldn't marshall the defense is off the mark. Is it a strikers fault for not "marshalling" his midfield to supply him? There is only so much you can do between the sticks. You can remind your team what to do at set pieces but if they don't head the ball clear, it's not your fault. You stick VDS with a different back four at newcastle for a decade, and see how many he concedes. How good would he look then?

noodler

Given is, without any shadow of a doubt, one of the finest keepers the PL has ever seen.

He has been in the league since its early days and has been consistently excellent despite rarely having what would be considered a 'top 4' team around him.

Boggles

Given is an excellent keeper.

But like all Keepers that are over worked they always look fantastic because they pull 10 roy of the rovers saves off every match.

The measure of a top class keeper is if he has nothing to do for 89.59 and is called on in that split second and produces.

I rate Given highly and I like to think he is one of these keepers, if City challenge for the title seriously we will find out.

To come from nowhere and win the league you need top class in the sticks, Tim Flowers immediately springs to mind, that fooker was like he was in the matrix at times.

orourkeda

Arent Manchester City fans getting ahead of themselves. They havent kicked a ball yet. Lets see how they play first

nkay1985

I have a feeling some people here have been watching a different Premiership to me. The performances Given put in for Newcastle during his 12 years were often nothing short of heroic. He kept them in games they had no right to be in. They've never really had a good defense. Even during the Keegan years, the defence wasn't great and Given was a huge element in their title challenges. Since then, their defence has gotten weaker and weaker, yet they still managed to survive. You'd find it hard to find anyone who would suggest Given wasn't instrumental in their continued survival.

He's top class and I don't see how anyone can think otherwise.

Elonex

His main problem is that he doesn't organize his defense well enough. City will concede too many goals this season to break the top 4.

Bubs101

Elonex wrote: »

His main problem is that he doesn't organize his defense well enough. City will concede too many goals this season to break the top 4.

This. People keep talking as if Newcastle have had a useless defence when in reality, they've had some pretty decent defenders that have just never ever gelled with the only common link being Given. Before this year Collucini, Taylor and Beye were good defenders while Bassongs quality showed this year. That's not a bad defence by any stretch of the imagination