At last we have zero tolerence, YIPEE!

Darragh29

Well it might have taken it's time in coming but at last we have a Justice Minister promising to bring us zero tolerance policing by the Gardai!

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardai-vow-zero-tolerance-of-violence-1830421.html

Now before you start getting excited and start thinking that maybe we are now one step closer to tackling gangland criminals or the plague on communities that is antisocial behaviour, regretttably no, the zero tolerance attitude is just being aimed at YOU, if you protest against the government and things become a little heated!

I personally think that this is great news, I can just picture the scene in my head. Next month the pensioners, or some group that are being sodomised by this government, will have a protest and the minister might decide that it's best that he stays in the car! A crowd will gather around the car in protest and some poor pensioner will have their head split open when the Gardai draw the batons...

Then maybe we'll be sufficiently shocked to take to the streets and stay there until we have evicted this government from office! So I say, bring on zero tolerance policing to the law abiding citizens who protest against this shambolic disgrace of a government! So I say to the government: Take out the batons to us at a protest, I DARE YA!

turgon

First line of the article:

Gardai have warned there will be no tolerance of violent street demonstrations over any issue.

So its nothing to do with the Justice Minister, in fact. But Im sure that was keenly overlooked in an attempt to add more fuel to fire upon which people hope to cast FF.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

If the guards get nasty with the pensioners, there will be only one winner.

okay, two if you count the media.

Darragh29

turgon wrote: »

First line of the article:

So its nothing to do with the Justice Minister, in fact. But Im sure that was keenly overlooked in an attempt to add more fuel to fire upon which people hope to cast FF.

And who does the Garda Commissioner report to and take his orders from?!?!? The Minister for Justice! The Minister for Justice sets the policy and the Garda Commissioner follows it...

Daftendirekt

This is the gist of the article:

Independent.ie wrote:

Mr Ahern warned that while protesters had the right to demonstrate and voice their opinions, they did not have the right to behave in such a manner where others may get hurt.

It's hardly Orwellian to ask protesters to protest without getting violent, now is it?

andrew

Darragh29 wrote: »

I personally think that this is great news, I can just picture the scene in my head. Next month the pensioners, or some group that are being sodomised by this government, will have a protest and the minister might decide that it's best that he stays in the car! A crowd will gather around the car in protest and some poor pensioner will have their head split open when the Gardai draw the batons...

Really, because I can't picture that happening at all. A guard hitting a pensioner? Really?

philologos

If people are being violent at protests they should be restrained. If you have grievances against the Government, feel free to let people know, however if you decide to get violent at a protest there should be justice carried out against you.

If we consider violent protest to be acceptable, where should we draw the line? Were the Athens riots okay? Or were the Dublin riots okay?

On this issue Ahern seems to be quite reasonable infact:

Mr Ahern warned that while protesters had the right to demonstrate and voice their opinions, they did not have the right to behave in such a manner where others may get hurt.

Socially and ethically responsible protest is what we should be aiming for surely?

We've had one proper violent "Protest" in the last few years and zero tolerance would have been great in that situation. I'm talking about the anti-orange march protests of course.

Of course, these were violent knackers and the Guards wouldn't be bothered tackling them, sure they might get hurt. Just wait for some student's protesting over fee's or something similar and watch the heads get cracked.

Darragh29

Just seems to me that the words, "zero tolerance" being used by Gardai now is almost like poking the rest of us in the eye!

Where is zero tolerance for all the junkies in the city centre who have taken over the boardwalk and other parts of town???

Where is zero tolerance for gangland criminals, 90% of them who have carried out gangland executions in recent years have not even been charged with an offence, let alone be charged and found guilty?!?!?

Where is zero tolerance for scumbags that are involved in anti-social behaviour in housing estates, making life a misery for hard working law abiding citizens???

But yet if you put your hand on the ministers state car, zero tolerance enforcement awaits you???

philologos

If it is only for violent protest, what do the rest of us who generally live lawfully have to fear?

Darragh29

Jakkass wrote: »

If it is only for violent protest, what do the rest of us who generally live lawfully have to fear?

So say I'm out in my local town here at a protest and I hear that Mary Harney is opening some new private nursing home in my community... So I join a large protest that is blocking her car from departing from the venue, to protest against my the A & E department in my local hosital being closed.

We are occupying the only road out of the estate where she is departing from. It isn't a violent protest, but if I don't get out of the way when I'm told to by a Garda, then zero tolerance awaits me! You can't have it every way lads, you can't fu*k up the country and then expect people not to get animated about it when they take to the streets to protest!

oncevotedff

Darragh29 wrote: »

.....Next month the pensioners, or some group that are being sodomised by this government, will have a protest and the minister might decide that it's best that he stays in the car! A crowd will gather around the car in protest and some poor pensioner will have their head split open when the Gardai draw the batons...

Since the Gardai are amongst those being sodomised by the government maybe they won't bother.:D

Fremen

In my opinion, a "zero tolerance policy", in any walk of life, is a synonym for a "zero judgement policy". Nothing like a zero tolerance policy to turn a peaceful protest into a riot.

What I would really like to hear is the garda commissioner saying something like "The Gardaí will judiciously apply some common sense and respond with an appropriate level of crowd control or force as the situation demands." Of course, that kind of statement just doesn't make for great headlines.

Darragh29

Darragh29 wrote: »

We are occupying the only road out of the estate where she is departing from. It isn't a violent protest, but if I don't get out of the way when I'm told to by a Garda, then zero tolerance awaits me!

So you stay there, and she remains inside the car inside the estate, and that goes on for how long exactly and achieves what?

Protest is fine. But if a Garda tells someone to move on and they don't, then they break the law, and the consequences are their fault, not the Garda's for applying the law.

Darragh29

Deleted User wrote: »

So you stay there, and she remains inside the car inside the estate, and that goes on for how long exactly and achieves what?

Protest is fine. But if a Garda tells someone to move on and they don't, then they break the law, and the consequences are their fault, not the Garda's for applying the law.

You can't run a country into the ground and then expect people, who's lives you've ruined, to stand idly by and just let you saunter into a photo opportunity in your 09D state Mercedes. People have limits that they can be pushed to, it's just human nature that people when you bend them over and try to sodomise them, eventually they will try to stand up straight again!

Fremen

Jakkass wrote: »

If it is only for violent protest, what do the rest of us who generally live lawfully have to fear?

That kind of reasoning bothers me a little bit. It suggests far too much trust in the authorities. What we should be asking is "What was wrong with the old system, and why are we changing it?".

A policy used to stop a violent riot today could be a policy used to stop a protest which is merely embarassing to the government tomorrow. Look at the British terror laws. Originally intended to hinder terrorism, they're now also used to harass journalists and Icelandic Banks.

Laws (or policies) like this tend to drift from their intended purpose, and they're a whole lot harder to get rid of than to implement.

Darragh29

Darragh29 wrote: »

You can't run a country into the ground and then expect people, who's lives you've ruined, to stand idly by and just let you saunter into a photo opportunity in your 09D state Mercedes.

By all means protest. Noone has propsed removing freedom of speech or association from our Constitution, this isn't North Korea.

But when a member of the gardai says move along, refusing to do so is an offence, and protests must stay on the right side of the law.

I think every person who protests at any time feels strongly that the issue that has moved them to take to the streets is really crucial and merits bending the law. But whether it be animal rights or Shell to Sea or freeing some Shinner fighting extradition or whatever it is, even trying to keep Mary cooped in some estate, it doesn't mean we can ignore the Gardai.

Mena

Jakkass wrote: »

If people are being violent at protests they should be restrained. If you have grievances against the Government, feel free to let people know, however if you decide to get violent at a protest there should be justice carried out against you.

If we consider violent protest to be acceptable, where should we draw the line? Were the Athens riots okay? Or were the Dublin riots okay?

On this issue Ahern seems to be quite reasonable infact:


Socially and ethically responsible protest is what we should be aiming for surely?

Oh ****, for the first time ever, I agree with something Jackass posted :eek:

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

But when a member of the gardai says move along, refusing to do so is an offence, and protests must stay on the right side of the law.

Really? I'm outside the Dail at a protest and a Guard says "Move along" and I don't, I'm breaking the law?

Darragh29

I think using the words "zero tolerance", given the national mood at the moment is akin to asking the country for a scrap! It goes to show a lack of humility and understanding of the hardship that some people are currently experiencing, entirely symptomatic of a government that hasn't done one thing right in 12 years, apart from ordering 900 fu*king hospital trollies...

All this statement is saying is basically, "if you stand up against us, we will smack you back down again"...

Rojomcdojo

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Really? I'm outside the Dail at a protest and a Guard says "Move along" and I don't, I'm breaking the law?

Depends on the context. If a Garda reasonably believes that maintaining the peace requires someone to leave an area and directs them to do so and they fail, that is a Public Order offence. I'm not sure they can make such demands for the hell of it mind, or that they use them lightly.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0008.html

Darragh29 wrote: »

I think using the words "zero tolerance", given the national mood at the moment is akin to asking the country for a scrap!

I do accept that there is a bit of an overreaction and the language is intemperate. As Fremen said above, the gardai could have phrased this in terms of seeing what the appropriate response is to any situation and there would be no story.

philologos

Mena wrote: »

Oh ****, for the first time ever, I agree with something Jackass posted :eek:

I really should post here more often

In fairness in the instance that is in the Irish Independent article people were attempting to damage the Ministers car. I don't think it will bring in a Big Brother state.

Mr Smith's car was kicked and repeatedly punched while placards were thrown at its windscreen.

Now should that kind of behaviour be encouraged. My opinion is no matter how much you despise the Minister of Agricultures policies it isn't a legitimate form of protest to do this. This is relatively low scale violence, but it is still illegal and the Gardaí are there to enforce the law.

lostexpectation

Daftendirekt wrote: »

This is the gist of the article:





It's hardly Orwellian to ask protesters to protest without getting violent, now is it?

its hardly unheard of for police to start or provoke violence at demonstrations is it.

dvpower

Gardai have warned there will be no tolerance of violent street demonstrations over any issue.

.
.
.


The Irish Independent understands that gardai do not anticipate further action being taken over the farmer protest -- despite senior officers voicing their extreme unhappiness.

Has Zero Tolerance been redefined?

dvpower

lostexpectation wrote: »

its hardly unheard of for police to start or provoke violence at demonstrations is it.

There isn't anything to suggest that was the case here.

gurramok

FF promised Zero Tolerance in the 1997 general election, we know what has happened since.

Anyway, will the gardai enforce zero tolerance against a violent demonstration by fellow public sector workers??

Wheely

Darragh29 wrote: »

I think using the words "zero tolerance", given the national mood at the moment is akin to asking the country for a scrap! It goes to show a lack of humility and understanding of the hardship that some people are currently experiencing, entirely symptomatic of a government that hasn't done one thing right in 12 years, apart from ordering 900 fu*king hospital trollies...

All this statement is saying is basically, "if you stand up against us, we will smack you back down again"...

I think you're being a little dramatic here. I read the article and if you think that's what it says then you're hearing something I'm not. Sorry.

Biggins

No new laws were introduced. Its just a reiteration of the already present laws.
I'm sure the minister for Agriculture wasn't impresssed at the reaction he got from the crowd and voiced his opinon to Gardi heads.

Nothings changed.

As for "...in an attempt to add more fuel to fire upon which people hope to cast FF."

well they do make it easy for the public to get angry at them.
I'm just amazed worse hasn't happened already.

"zero tolerance" would be better off practised by the fraud squad on the bankers and other crooks in national level!
Now that would be a miracle.

Treora

Jakkass wrote: »

If people are being violent at protests they should be restrained. If you have grievances against the Government, feel free to let people know, however if you decide to get violent at a protest there should be justice carried out against you.

If we consider violent protest to be acceptable, where should we draw the line? Were the Athens riots okay? Or were the Dublin riots okay?

On this issue Ahern seems to be quite reasonable infact:


Socially and ethically responsible protest is what we should be aiming for surely?

Had we the gards battening down on Dev when he made that break for it from England then we wouldn't be in this mess. If a sizable number of people are getting to the stage where they are rioting with a political purpose then sitting down with them first is the most imporant thing, else leave government. People have thresholds and that is the lesson people should learn from the deaths of 6 million Europeans. :eek:

Police states and May day riots are plain wrong.

Shan75

Deleted User wrote: »

By all means protest. Noone has propsed removing freedom of speech or association from our Constitution, this isn't North Korea.

But when a member of the gardai says move along, refusing to do so is an offence, and protests must stay on the right side of the law.

I think every person who protests at any time feels strongly that the issue that has moved them to take to the streets is really crucial and merits bending the law. But whether it be animal rights or Shell to Sea or freeing some Shinner fighting extradition or whatever it is, even trying to keep Mary cooped in some estate, it doesn't mean we can ignore the Gardai.

Surely part of our problem in this country is we accept too easily what the Government dishes out.A few proper protests where people refuse to back down to the Gardai doing the politicians dirty work may not be a bad thing.Not that I'm advocating an all out offensive by the public against the politicians and their subordinates but some French style protests might make our politicians finally sit up and realise we will not be easily dictated to.It won't happen of course as no matter how bad things get only the minority are capable of anything other than apathy or even resignation.

Darragh29

Shan75 wrote: »

Surely part of our problem in this country is we accept too easily what the Government dishes out.A few proper protests where people refuse to back down to the Gardai doing the politicians dirty work may not be a bad thing.Not that I'm advocating an all out offensive by the public against the politicians and their subordinates but some French style protests might make our politicians finally sit up and realise we will not be easily dictated to.It won't happen of course as no matter how bad things get only the minority are capable of anything other than apathy or even resignation.

This is my point entirely. Civil unrest is an inevitable eventuality when a country decends into where we now find ourselves. Unfortunately in Ireland, we are only capable of the mildest apathy as suggested above, however we seem to want to talk about our dilema more than any other country, which I find particularly frustrating.

But I'm starting to see signs that the country is starting to grow a pair and stand up for itself at last, and the treatment dished out to Smith the other day is evidence of that I think. And the state gets rattled and says as usual the most offensive and inflamatory thing possible, "we'll show you zero tolerance if you want to see it"...

Our apathy as a national constituency is a disgrace. I'm not condoning violence, but we do need to grow ourselves a pair, this government doesn't fear us and doesn't respect us... They aren't even paying attention to us, the threat of taking out the wooden spoon to us last week, tells us that.