At last we have zero tolerence, YIPEE!

Liam Byrne

Darragh29 wrote: »

Well it might have taken it's time in coming but at last we have a Justice Minister promising to bring us zero tolerance policing by the Gardai!

I wouldn't worry about it - John O'Donoghue and his crowd promised that YEARS ago in order to get elected, and then spectacularly failed to deliver, resulting in organised crime elevating to beyond what it was at the time of the Veronica Guerin murder.

So I'd say protesters have nothing to worry about....apart from the fact that if they're (a) easy targets and (b) protesting against a Government decision, they might actually follow up on it this time....

Of course, if we could somehow get all the drug dealers, scumbags and politicians to "protest", we could work this to our advantage and make FF - however indirectly - give the public something that they actually WANT!

jmayo

Well the first groupo probably tragetted for zero tolerance are probably going to be IFA and farmers, as they have just managed to get onto new road between Athlone and Ballinasloe that our glorious leader biffo clowen was opening.
They managed to drown out his speech about how the 19km of road has cost a cheap 210m and being delivered ahead of time.
Perhaps he should visit Spain or Portugal to see how they manage to roll out roads in more demanding topography and he wouldn't be braying so much.

It will be interesting when the Gardai (many of whom are sons of farmers or evn part time farmers) have to show zero tolerance to farmers protesting.

Maybe the farmers learnt a few tricks from their French counterparts down the years.

jmayo

jmayo wrote: »

It will be interesting when the Gardai (many of whom are sons of farmers or evn part time farmers) have to show zero tolerance to farmers protesting.

It will. Maybe I'm stereotyping Gardai here, but think there is a feeling that they will find it much easier to wade into a crowd of young hippies retaking Dame Street than they will to middle aged farmers in Athlone.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Deleted User wrote: »

It will. Maybe I'm stereotyping Gardai here, but think there is a feeling that they will find it much easier to wade into a crowd of young hippies retaking Dame Street than they will to middle aged farmers in Athlone.

What about fishermen in Mayo ? Everyone bought that story hook line and sink, if you'll pardon the pun.

lostexpectation

garda farmers son facilitating protests again this morning hear

ChocolateSauce

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes I am.

That sort of nonsense may be fine for students with Che posters on their walls and ideals about smashing the system. But in the real world...

Yeah, that pot smoking Ghandi should have just grown up and learned to accept things:rolleyes:. Of course that point has already been made, but it's the best example. If you think civil disobedience is something that only college students with a chip on their shoulder partake in, you don't understand the importance of it or what it can accomplish.

What is it with posts about me, whether I understand the concepts being discussed etc. etc.? Sheesh. You may have no respect for the rule of law, or public order, or respect for the Gardai, but at least respect those whose opinion differs on this forum!

As for your point about Gandhi. Great. For clarification can I take it you are just focussing on the bit where they succeeded in gaining independence, but ignoring the 1,000,000 who lost their lives in the subsequent partition? Either way, I'm not sure just dropping the name Gandhi into the debate still proves that civil disobediance cures all problems. All I'm saying is that there are other ways of going about things. Someone has a quote earlier from Marx, I much prefer that one about using the system, you know about being inside the tent pissing out rather than outside pissing in and all that. I guess trading quotes is no better than anecdotes of protests that worked and that didn't mind...

ChocolateSauce

Deleted User wrote: »

What is it with posts about me, whether I understand the concepts being discussed etc. etc.? Sheesh. You may have no respect for the rule of law, or public order, or respect for the Gardai, but at least respect those whose opinion differs on this forum!

As for your point about Gandhi. Great. For clarification can I take it you are just focussing on the bit where they succeeded in gaining independence, but ignoring the 1,000,000 who lost their lives in the subsequent partition? Either way, I'm not sure just dropping the name Gandhi into the debate still proves that civil disobediance cures all problems. All I'm saying is that there are other ways of going about things. Someone has a quote earlier from Marx, I much prefer that one about using the system, you know about being inside the tent pissing out rather than outside pissing in and all that. I guess trading quotes is no better than anecdotes of protests that worked and that didn't mind...

It wasn't civil disobedience that killed those people, it was religiously-inspired hatred.

Respect the rule of law? Just because it's the law? Can you not think for yourself? What if the law stated that Jews were not fit to live? What if the law states that apostates should be put to death? What if the law states that black people must give up their seats to white people on a bus? Should these laws be respect just because they exist? If a law is not just, it must be ignored and/or repealed. Laws are made to protect, not to oppress, and if they do oppress then peaceful disobedience is called for. As for using the system, the reason disobedience is so important is because usually it is "the system" that has made the law in question.

sovtek

sovtek wrote: »

Are you aware of the concept of civil disobedience?

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Can you not think for yourself?

For the nth time, the thread is not about me. Or how much less intelligent or independant I may be. Or how you understand things I couldn't possibly comprehend. Forget about me, please...

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

What if the law stated that Jews were not fit to live?

:D

Does this qualify as a Godwin's Law moment?

I say that comparing a law that says respect the gardai and their desire to maintain the peace with a law that says kill the Jews must be at least a weak analogy, and at best allow me invoke Godwin's Law?

For the record, I don't think Mary Harney will ever tell us to kill the Jews. Or to reserve seats for white people on a bus. And while you may be making some greater point about civil disobediance, I don't know how many times I have now posted that we could go around in circles swapping stories about how civil disobediance worked in that case but not in the other. I'll repeat my point again, it is no automatic cure.

ChocolateSauce

Deleted User wrote: »

For the nth time, the thread is not about me. Or how much less intelligent or independant I may be. Or how you understand things I couldn't possibly comprehend. Forget about me, please...



:D

Does this qualify as a Godwin's Law moment?

Not really. Jewish massacres were not invented by the Nazis in any way, shape or form, just perfected.

I say that comparing a law that says respect the gardai and their desire to maintain the peace with a law that says kill the Jews must be at least a weak analogy, and at best allow me invoke Godwin's Law?

If the Gardai do their job properly and honestly, I'll respect them. I don't need a law to tell me to do that, and indeed laws requiring citizens to respect authority are despotic and tyrannical, because what they do is silence criticism.

For the record, I don't think Mary Harney will ever tell us to kill the Jews. Or to reserve seats for white people on a bus. And while you may be making some greater point about civil disobediance, I don't know how many times I have now posted that we could go around in circles swapping stories about how civil disobediance worked in that case but not in the other. I'll repeat my point again, it is no automatic cure.

A greater point is exactly what I'm making, and I never said it was an automatic cure, just a critical tool. If disobedience fails against true tyranny, armed insurrection is the next step.

ChocolateSauce

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

laws requiring citizens to respect authority are despotic and tyrannical

Could you tell me what country or system of Government is not 'despotic and tyrannical' by that definition?

I can think of the pot smoking Dutch police on the Harry Enfield show. After that...

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

If disobedience fails against true tyranny, armed insurrection is the next step.

Possibly. Just as well we have nothing like true tyranny then. If you think we have, I think you may be slightly downplaying the suffering of those who live under truly despotic regimes like North Korea.

ChocolateSauce

Deleted User wrote: »

Could you tell me what country or system of Government is not 'despotic and tyrannical' by that definition?

Let me clarify, I was referring to the criticism of authority or something in that vein, not about being legally required to obey laws. By that definition, I would pick out the US and Britain as our culturally closest neighbours, where you can make unlimited criticism of the state and government without fear of jail. Contrast with, say Turkey, where insulting "Turkishness" carries a prison sentence.

Possibly. Just as well we have nothing like true tyranny then. If you think we have, I think you may be slightly downplaying the suffering of those who live under truly despotic regimes like North Korea.

Now you're trying to put words in my mouth. I said "truly" specifically to exclude nations like us, and indeed it was exactly North Korea I had in mind when I said it. That seems to me like a country where civil disobedience is certain to fail.

ChocolateSauce

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I would pick out the US and Britain as our culturally closest neighbours, where you can make unlimited criticism of the state and government without fear of jail.

Just like it is here.

Of course, one need only see events at Kent State or the Miner's Strike to see how both of those countries treat criticism that involves breaking the law, breach of public order etc.

Poccington

jmayo wrote: »

It will be interesting when the Gardai (many of whom are sons of farmers or evn part time farmers) have to show zero tolerance to farmers protesting.

Maybe the farmers learnt a few tricks from their French counterparts down the years.

I can't see how there'd be any problems with the Gardai showing "Zero tolerance" against farmers. It's simple enough, they either do their jobs properly or they should get the boot.

Liam Byrne

The best implementation of "zero tolerance" we could do with at the moment is towards Government incompetence.

Yes, the horse has bolted and the damage is done thanks to FF & the *ankers, but if Ireland has learnt ANYTHING it should be that incompetent TDs should get the road - even mid-term. And the leader who appointed the incompetents to their ministries and positions should be held accountable.