At last we have zero tolerence, YIPEE!

Maybe, just maybe, people were pretty happy with their lot for a long time now?

I mean, tens of thousands tore the British Embassy apart in the 70s. I'm not sure we're as passive as you make out, it's just that perhaps we thought we had it good for the past 10 years?

Darragh29

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe, just maybe, people were pretty happy with their lot for a long time now?

I mean, tens of thousands tore the British Embassy apart in the 70s. I'm not sure we're as passive as you make out, it's just that perhaps we thought we had it good for the past 10 years?

I think as a nation, we are now going through a national reawakening. As a nation, we are now like the beautiful young woman who has just been sat down by her sister and told that her boyfriend she was preparing to marry, has in fact been visiting gay brothels on a weekly basis for the last 2 years and has last week been diagnosed with several venerial diseases.

Like the woman who cannot accept that the husband to be was ripping her off for years and has now brought her home a few unsavory doses, we are in shock. That Celtic Tiger that we are all led to believe in, that was all an illusion, it was never going to happen to us! The wealth we expected, the higher quality of life we expected, it was all a fallacy, a myth, a lie... For the vast majority of us, the Celtic Tiger meant only one thing, a higher mortgage, that now has to be repaid even though you might have lost your job. The ultimate betrayal...

So just like the woman who is putting her head into her hands in shock after she gets the news from her sister, we are in shock, disbelief...

But shock will turn to anger as it surely must, and you can imagine what will happen when that woman eventually catches up with her cheating boyfriend!

Shan75

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe, just maybe, people were pretty happy with their lot for a long time now?

I mean, tens of thousands tore the British Embassy apart in the 70s. I'm not sure we're as passive as you make out, it's just that perhaps we thought we had it good for the past 10 years?

I'd agree there is an element of that alright and when people have good lifestyles on the surface they are not paying as much attention as they should to what is bubbling a little bit deeper.

Good example about the Embassy but I think this shows also that we have to be backed into a corner before we react.When things are seemingly good we accept being ripped off and political corruption and we don't concern ourselves too much with how people are being treated etc.Now we are standing on the precipice there will be people who mount protest campaigns and there will be people who go over the top and allow themselves to create havoc but there will also be the majority who will watch it all unfold on their television sets and think " ara sure what difference can we make anyway".

Ara sure is the great Irish motto.

Shan75

Shan75 wrote: »

there will also be the majority who will watch it all unfold on their television sets and think " ara sure what difference can we make anyway".

Which is a very good point.

Not that people can't make a difference, but it's certainly tue that protests often don't. There are calmer and more effective ways of registering discontent, FF will be much more concerned abou local election results and poll trends than any farmers banging on a car roof.

Red Sleeping Beauty

I saw three Gardai assault a wino on the boardwalk in Dublin last week. The guy could barely stand and was being arrested. One of them had their kosh out, another was in the process of handcuffing this guy and the third (the man - other two were women) was standing there observing. The wino moved one step (it looked like he fell forward) and then the male garda grabbed the wino and threw him to the ground, reefed his arm around his neck and sat on him.

A Garda van showed up with two more garda and another garda showed up on foot.

So that's a grand total of 6 Gardai for one drunk man that could barely support his own weight.

Yeah, fantastic zero tolerance - rolleyeyes etc etc-

Red Sleeping Beauty

With regards to protests/demonstrations, how long before they (you know who you are ) have a death on your hands, a la Mr Ian Tomlinson ?

sovtek

Deleted User wrote: »

So you stay there, and she remains inside the car inside the estate, and that goes on for how long exactly and achieves what?

Well then she has to actually face the public she supposedly represents or she sits her ass in her car until the Gards start cracking skulls. I know wich scenario I prefer.

Protest is fine. But if a Garda tells someone to move on and they don't, then they break the law, and the consequences are their fault, not the Garda's for applying the law.

Are you aware of the concept of civil disobedience?

sovtek

Darragh29 wrote: »

You can't have it every way lads, you can't fu*k up the country and then expect people not to get animated about it when they take to the streets to protest!

Of course "they" do want and expect to have it everyway and everyone to shut up and let them get on with it. I'm still trying to get my head around that attitude after living here for almost a decade.

thebman

Fremen wrote: »

In my opinion, a "zero tolerance policy", in any walk of life, is a synonym for a "zero judgement policy". Nothing like a zero tolerance policy to turn a peaceful protest into a riot.

What I would really like to hear is the garda commissioner saying something like "The Gardaí will judiciously apply some common sense and respond with an appropriate level of crowd control or force as the situation demands." Of course, that kind of statement just doesn't make for great headlines.

Have to agree with this. If they take a hard-line so will the protesters and things will just escalate and get worse.

What was wrong with the way things were? Nobody has gotten seriously injured at a protest about the economy that I'm aware of.

The minister isn't any more special than a regular citizen even if he imagines he is. This is clearly the politicians crying over being held up and not wanting people to protest near them.

You can protest, just do it over there where we won't have to look at you or acknowledge your protest.

I'm not for violent protests but the when were the gardai pushed over? Was it before or after they started trying to force people to get out of the way of the ministers car?

ChocolateSauce

As a general rule, zero tolerance is a really bad idea. Although I wouldn't have zero tolerance for zero tolerance, I'd be pretty close. Once it is established as an acceptable policy, it can spread to areas where it will ultimately lead to injustice and may even be counter productive.

sovtek

sovtek wrote: »

Are you aware of the concept of civil disobedience?

Yes I am.

That sort of nonsense may be fine for students with Che posters on their walls and ideals about smashing the system. But in the real world...

I just think that there are more effective ways of getting an argument across rather than slugging it out with the Gardai. And history has taught us that, while sometimes disobediance works, sometimes it sways public opinion against even very valid protests. Think of public reaction to the Miners in 1983 in England once protests became violent. Of course one can take anecdotes, there were successful campaigns too, but it certainly is not a panacea.

thebman

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes I am.

That sort of nonsense may be fine for students with Che posters on their walls and ideals about smashing the system. But in the real world...

I just think that there are more effective ways of getting an argument across rather than slugging it out with the Gardai. And history has taught us that, while sometimes disobediance works, sometimes it sways public opinion against even very valid protests. Think of public reaction to the Miners in 1983 in England once protests became violent. Of course one can take anecdotes, there were successful campaigns too, but it certainly is not a panacea.

Yeah but the problem is this will be used whenever people protest at a ministers car or anything else. The gardai will try to move them away and when they don't move, zero tolerance will kick in.

It is guaranteed if you read the article, that seems exactly the situation they are talking about having zero tolerance for and it makes sense considering that event occurred recently and obviously pissed off the wrong people.

Treora

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes I am.

That sort of nonsense may be fine for students with Che posters on their walls and ideals about smashing the system. But in the real world...

Sure wasn't a varient of that mischief what the sandle wearing Gandhi used. Back in his box and reform the empire. :rolleyes:

Red Sleeping Beauty

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes I am.

That sort of nonsense may be fine for students with Che posters on their walls and ideals about smashing the system. But in the real world...

I just think that there are more effective ways of getting an argument across rather than slugging it out with the Gardai. And history has taught us that, while sometimes disobediance works, sometimes it sways public opinion against even very valid protests. Think of public reaction to the Miners in 1983 in England once protests became violent. Of course one can take anecdotes, there were successful campaigns too, but it certainly is not a panacea.

This is the real world. It doesn't get anymore real than people losing jobs and facing gigantic bills. It doesn't get anymore real than people dying on hospital trollies. On trying to force people on the bottom rung of the ladder with medical cards to pay for their medication. It doesn't get anymore real than kids being given their education in tin shacks which resemble images of the third world.

Historys' taught a lot of things. Someone once said, the history of society is the history of class struggle. What better way can people get their opinion across? You think ticking a poxy box on a sheet of paper every 5 years actually matters ? Actually achieves anything ?

This is all very real.

brianthebard

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes I am.

That sort of nonsense may be fine for students with Che posters on their walls and ideals about smashing the system. But in the real world...

I just think that there are more effective ways of getting an argument across rather than slugging it out with the Gardai. And history has taught us that, while sometimes disobediance works, sometimes it sways public opinion against even very valid protests. Think of public reaction to the Miners in 1983 in England once protests became violent. Of course one can take anecdotes, there were successful campaigns too, but it certainly is not a panacea.

Do you have any panaceas lying around?

Alan Rouge

Alan Rouge wrote: »

Someone once said, the history of society is the history of class struggle.

That was Karl Marx. His fanclub went on a really big rampage, stormed the Winter Palace, wiped out the Tsar's family etc. Anyone know how that whole thing panned out? Did it secure many years of happiness afterwards?

brianthebard wrote: »

Do you have any panaceas lying around?

We'll just pop this one in the oven...but here's one I prepared earlier...

sovtek

Deleted User wrote: »

That sort of nonsense may be fine for students with Che posters on their walls and ideals about smashing the system. But in the real world...

Aside of your derision for people that want to make things better for everyone else...in the real world its how Martin Luther King got the civil rights act. It's also how a lot of other things got done that you now enjoy the fruits of.

sovtek

sovtek wrote: »

Aside of your derision for people that want to make things better for everyone else

:D

Yes, that's it. I hate happiness!

You'll forgive my derision at the notion that violence or 'civil disobediance' makes the world a better place.

Look, we can spend all day plucking examples of protests that went well and ones that backfired spectacularly. I'll repeat that it's no panacea, do you think it is?

sovtek

Deleted User wrote: »

:D

You'll forgive my derision at the notion that violence or 'civil disobediance' makes the world a better place.

civil disobedience
 
Use civil disobedience in a Sentence
–noun
1. the refusal to obey certain laws or governmental demands for the purpose of influencing legislation or government policy, characterized by the employment of such nonviolent techniques as boycotting, picketing, and nonpayment of taxes. Compare noncooperation (def. 2), passive resistance.
2. (initial capital letters, italics) an essay (1848) by Thoreau.

Precisely. Hence my use of the word 'or', when I referred to 'violence or civil disobediance'.

I'd do the clever clever thing and link a definition of the word 'or' for your benefit, only don't you think debating at that level is a tad childish?

Now, will you accept that I may know what civil disobediance and let's all get back on topic, and leave the english language lessons for some other forum?

Liam Byrne

Darragh29 wrote: »

Well it might have taken it's time in coming but at last we have a Justice Minister promising to bring us zero tolerance policing by the Gardai!

I wouldn't worry about it - John O'Donoghue and his crowd promised that YEARS ago in order to get elected, and then spectacularly failed to deliver, resulting in organised crime elevating to beyond what it was at the time of the Veronica Guerin murder.

So I'd say protesters have nothing to worry about....apart from the fact that if they're (a) easy targets and (b) protesting against a Government decision, they might actually follow up on it this time....

Of course, if we could somehow get all the drug dealers, scumbags and politicians to "protest", we could work this to our advantage and make FF - however indirectly - give the public something that they actually WANT!

jmayo

Well the first groupo probably tragetted for zero tolerance are probably going to be IFA and farmers, as they have just managed to get onto new road between Athlone and Ballinasloe that our glorious leader biffo clowen was opening.
They managed to drown out his speech about how the 19km of road has cost a cheap 210m and being delivered ahead of time.
Perhaps he should visit Spain or Portugal to see how they manage to roll out roads in more demanding topography and he wouldn't be braying so much.

It will be interesting when the Gardai (many of whom are sons of farmers or evn part time farmers) have to show zero tolerance to farmers protesting.

Maybe the farmers learnt a few tricks from their French counterparts down the years.

jmayo

jmayo wrote: »

It will be interesting when the Gardai (many of whom are sons of farmers or evn part time farmers) have to show zero tolerance to farmers protesting.

It will. Maybe I'm stereotyping Gardai here, but think there is a feeling that they will find it much easier to wade into a crowd of young hippies retaking Dame Street than they will to middle aged farmers in Athlone.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Deleted User wrote: »

It will. Maybe I'm stereotyping Gardai here, but think there is a feeling that they will find it much easier to wade into a crowd of young hippies retaking Dame Street than they will to middle aged farmers in Athlone.

What about fishermen in Mayo ? Everyone bought that story hook line and sink, if you'll pardon the pun.

lostexpectation

garda farmers son facilitating protests again this morning hear

ChocolateSauce

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes I am.

That sort of nonsense may be fine for students with Che posters on their walls and ideals about smashing the system. But in the real world...

Yeah, that pot smoking Ghandi should have just grown up and learned to accept things:rolleyes:. Of course that point has already been made, but it's the best example. If you think civil disobedience is something that only college students with a chip on their shoulder partake in, you don't understand the importance of it or what it can accomplish.

What is it with posts about me, whether I understand the concepts being discussed etc. etc.? Sheesh. You may have no respect for the rule of law, or public order, or respect for the Gardai, but at least respect those whose opinion differs on this forum!

As for your point about Gandhi. Great. For clarification can I take it you are just focussing on the bit where they succeeded in gaining independence, but ignoring the 1,000,000 who lost their lives in the subsequent partition? Either way, I'm not sure just dropping the name Gandhi into the debate still proves that civil disobediance cures all problems. All I'm saying is that there are other ways of going about things. Someone has a quote earlier from Marx, I much prefer that one about using the system, you know about being inside the tent pissing out rather than outside pissing in and all that. I guess trading quotes is no better than anecdotes of protests that worked and that didn't mind...

ChocolateSauce

Deleted User wrote: »

What is it with posts about me, whether I understand the concepts being discussed etc. etc.? Sheesh. You may have no respect for the rule of law, or public order, or respect for the Gardai, but at least respect those whose opinion differs on this forum!

As for your point about Gandhi. Great. For clarification can I take it you are just focussing on the bit where they succeeded in gaining independence, but ignoring the 1,000,000 who lost their lives in the subsequent partition? Either way, I'm not sure just dropping the name Gandhi into the debate still proves that civil disobediance cures all problems. All I'm saying is that there are other ways of going about things. Someone has a quote earlier from Marx, I much prefer that one about using the system, you know about being inside the tent pissing out rather than outside pissing in and all that. I guess trading quotes is no better than anecdotes of protests that worked and that didn't mind...

It wasn't civil disobedience that killed those people, it was religiously-inspired hatred.

Respect the rule of law? Just because it's the law? Can you not think for yourself? What if the law stated that Jews were not fit to live? What if the law states that apostates should be put to death? What if the law states that black people must give up their seats to white people on a bus? Should these laws be respect just because they exist? If a law is not just, it must be ignored and/or repealed. Laws are made to protect, not to oppress, and if they do oppress then peaceful disobedience is called for. As for using the system, the reason disobedience is so important is because usually it is "the system" that has made the law in question.

sovtek

sovtek wrote: »

Are you aware of the concept of civil disobedience?

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Can you not think for yourself?

For the nth time, the thread is not about me. Or how much less intelligent or independant I may be. Or how you understand things I couldn't possibly comprehend. Forget about me, please...

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

What if the law stated that Jews were not fit to live?

:D

Does this qualify as a Godwin's Law moment?

I say that comparing a law that says respect the gardai and their desire to maintain the peace with a law that says kill the Jews must be at least a weak analogy, and at best allow me invoke Godwin's Law?

For the record, I don't think Mary Harney will ever tell us to kill the Jews. Or to reserve seats for white people on a bus. And while you may be making some greater point about civil disobediance, I don't know how many times I have now posted that we could go around in circles swapping stories about how civil disobediance worked in that case but not in the other. I'll repeat my point again, it is no automatic cure.

ChocolateSauce

Deleted User wrote: »

For the nth time, the thread is not about me. Or how much less intelligent or independant I may be. Or how you understand things I couldn't possibly comprehend. Forget about me, please...



:D

Does this qualify as a Godwin's Law moment?

Not really. Jewish massacres were not invented by the Nazis in any way, shape or form, just perfected.

I say that comparing a law that says respect the gardai and their desire to maintain the peace with a law that says kill the Jews must be at least a weak analogy, and at best allow me invoke Godwin's Law?

If the Gardai do their job properly and honestly, I'll respect them. I don't need a law to tell me to do that, and indeed laws requiring citizens to respect authority are despotic and tyrannical, because what they do is silence criticism.

For the record, I don't think Mary Harney will ever tell us to kill the Jews. Or to reserve seats for white people on a bus. And while you may be making some greater point about civil disobediance, I don't know how many times I have now posted that we could go around in circles swapping stories about how civil disobediance worked in that case but not in the other. I'll repeat my point again, it is no automatic cure.

A greater point is exactly what I'm making, and I never said it was an automatic cure, just a critical tool. If disobedience fails against true tyranny, armed insurrection is the next step.