Bohemian FC v Red Bull Salzburg Champions' League qualifier match thread

Roaster

The Rooster wrote: »

By the way, for all the people who were slagging RTE - both RTE and Setanta offered to show the game live, but Bohs refused as they weren't offered any money and they thought it might impact on gate receipts.

Very short-sighted from Bohs. Putting a very small short term gain against possible long term advantages. Your casual soccer fan is unlikely to tune in to the likes of Bohs v Pats as he couldnt give a crap who wins. But an Irish team against a foreign team will always draw viewers. Exposure to European football is by far the easiest way for LoI to expand its fanbase.

Hard luck to Bohs. But I believe I missed a dire match anyway.

Why would any LOI team give away the rights to a game for nothing? €30K from Austrian TV, €0 from RTE, now let me think about that one...

You honestly think one game (and a club giving up €30k) is going to get barstoolers to sign-up, cop-on!

It was actually a very good game. Great atmosphere and two committed teams with different tactics. Gutted for Bohs!

therecklessone

Roaster wrote: »

You honestly think one game (and a club giving up €30k) is going to get barstoolers to sign-up, cop-on!

We could do with a little less of that, thank you.

LuckyLloyd

Roaster wrote: »

It was actually a very good game. Great atmosphere and two committed teams with different tactics. Gutted for Bohs!

I strongly disagree, and I was at it. Tense? Certainly. But a good end to end game with decent quality football? No.

Bateman

therecklessone wrote: »

We could do with a little less of that, thank you.

The phrase itself has become cringeworthy even in LOI circles, but it has a certain ring of truth cannot be easily expressed.

Bateman

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I strongly disagree, and I was at it. Tense? Certainly. But a good end to end game with decent quality football? No.

The word "good" is probably a bit of an empty word. Plenty of knockout champions league games that I've been at have had little more than tension going for them, and the tension alone makes them enjoyable at times, nailbiting at other times, but at the very least memorable. Tension brings a sense of importance to a game of football, it brings a sense that the game actually means something. The players might not be stringing 15 passes together or scoring from 40 yards on the volley, but you can see on the expression on their faces that they are actually earning their wages, not often to be taken for granted these days.

So if you can feel the tension, it's probably the sign of a "good" game by itself. If you pay money to go to football games on a regular basis, tension is as good a reason as any to feel like you have received your money's worth.

_blank_

Bateman wrote: »

The word "good" is probably a bit of an empty word. Plenty of knockout champions league games that I've been at have had little more than tension going for them, and the tension alone makes them enjoyable at times, nailbiting at other times, but at the very least memorable. Tension brings a sense of importance to a game of football, it brings a sense that the game actually means something. The players might not be stringing 15 passes together or scoring from 40 yards on the volley, but you can see on the expression on their faces that they are actually earning their wages, not often to be taken for granted these days.

So if you can feel the tension, it's probably the sign of a "good" game by itself. If you pay money to go to football games on a regular basis, tension is as good a reason as any to feel like you have received your money's worth.

Yeah but some people want a product.

Not a football match, a product.

If it's not an "end to end game with decent quality football", then frankly, you can go to hell.

They don't pay in for "tension", they want to see high scores, flags from the "coaches" to eliminate human error and a production team in place.

Bateman

Sounds like soccer to me. I don't do soccer, neither do most people I go to the football with.

Big Ears

Des wrote: »

Yeah but some people want a product.

Not a football match, a product.

If it's not an "end to end game with decent quality football", then frankly, you can go to hell.

They don't pay in for "tension", they want to see high scores, flags from the "coaches" to eliminate human error and a production team in place.

That's not true really, people want what they're told they want.

An use an example you can associate with, back in 2006 the League of Ireland or 'Eircom League' as it was then usually referred to had imo a very exciting season. The top teams(Derry and Shelbourne) played exciting attacking football, it was probably the peak year in terms of talent the league had and it brought about many great games.

Yet what would have mattered more to football fans in Ireland that year. A Derry v Shels match which could potentially decide the championship or West Brom v Sunderland in the English Premier League in a relegation decider. Note that this was before Sunderland's big Irish connection and you could be damn well sure that both sides would be more concerned with not losing than beating each other.

It's immaterial that a Derry v Shels game would probably have produced more excitement. It's simply ingrained into Irish peoples minds that the only football that matters happens abroad.
Even when English teams were doing crap in European at the beginning of the 90's that didn't matter to Irish people, it was still the league that was to be supported.

and that'll be the way it always is. Of course there is a lot that can be done to try and convince football fans that are after excitement and not an event to attend games but even then the LOI will play second fiddle to the game across the water.

I agree the Bohs v Salzburg game was boring though, the tension being the only thing keeping it interesting and tension is only present if you really care about the result.

stovelid

Bateman wrote: »

The phrase itself has become cringeworthy even in LOI circles,

It has certainly failed to address the growing choice in seating arrangements in modern public houses. Not to mention beer gardens with those benches and small TVs for when you're outside having a smoke.

LuckyLloyd

Bateman wrote: »

The word "good" is probably a bit of an empty word. Plenty of knockout champions league games that I've been at have had little more than tension going for them, and the tension alone makes them enjoyable at times, nailbiting at other times, but at the very least memorable. Tension brings a sense of importance to a game of football, it brings a sense that the game actually means something. The players might not be stringing 15 passes together or scoring from 40 yards on the volley, but you can see on the expression on their faces that they are actually earning their wages, not often to be taken for granted these days.

So if you can feel the tension, it's probably the sign of a "good" game by itself. If you pay money to go to football games on a regular basis, tension is as good a reason as any to feel like you have received your money's worth.

Des wrote: »

Yeah but some people want a product.

Not a football match, a product.

If it's not an "end to end game with decent quality football", then frankly, you can go to hell.

They don't pay in for "tension", they want to see high scores, flags from the "coaches" to eliminate human error and a production team in place.

I didn't say I didn't enjoy the match. If any of you had ever read much of my posts on games on this forum, you would also understand that it is that aspect of football that I enjoy the most (upsets achieved through sheer workrate and determination). Wednesday's game was a fiercely fought affair, and the majority of the players on both teams worked their socks off (barring some notable exceptions like Crowe).

But, the reality is that the quality of both teams was poor. Poor decision making, poor passing, heavy touches, long periods where neither team could put any sort of shape or flow together. Now, I'm not a Boh's fan obv, but was there as a League of Ireland well wisher and very much wanted them to progress. As such, because it went down to the wire it had a strong grip on my interest for the full 90 minutes. But if you were a neutral and didn't give a toss about the result, you would have been tempted to switch it off / leave because it was a relatively poor game in terms of technical skill and entertainment.

Now, why is it such a problem to call a spade a spade and admit that fact? I attend League of Ireland First Divison games regularly ffs, go watch a fair bit of park football, etc so I can appreciate football on a wider level than Des would like to think. But any game, at any level, that involves one team hanging on with few chances created and good football played is not a "good" or "high quality" game. No need to get the hump with someone who calls that what it is.

SectionF

Bateman wrote: »

The phrase itself has become cringeworthy even in LOI circles, but it has a certain ring of truth cannot be easily expressed.

There is nothing inherently offensive or wrong about the term barstooler. It doesn't denigrate, and it has no negative connotations of itself. It simply is shorthand that denotes someone who is more likely to watch football from a barstool, as many people do, rather than from a seat in a ground. Any negatives come from that which it describes.

You could as easily, and maybe even more accurately in most cases, say couch fan, but it's more efficient to let the one term do the talking. I'm not that far gone on the term, and it may have run its course, but anyone taking issue with it merely is trying to evade the question that lies behind it.

As for the non-barstooler-pleasing football: the game most certainly was not a showpiece, but it was most definitely entertaining, and for the right reasons. It was a titanic struggle from start to (almost) finish, with two sets of players, neither of whom are ManU or Real, doing their very best and giving no quarter in a game that really mattered. Give me that any day over the footballing equivalent of Come Dancing.

therecklessone

SectionF wrote: »

There is nothing inherently offensive or wrong about the term barstooler.

In the context which it is (over)used on this forum it is belittling towards people who choose to watch "their" team on TV rather than in the flesh.

You and others asked for increased respect for the LOI when we requested feedback from you all, respect is earned not given freely, and IMO it is use of language like the term above which contributes to a poisonous atmosphere among some users of this forum when it comes to the relevant discussions.

For what it is worth, I would have responded the same way to those on the other sides if I felt their language was dismissive of the LOI and Boh's efforts on Wednesday night.

anyone taking issue with it merely is trying to evade the question that lies behind it

I have always taken issue with the phrase, before and after my appointment as soccer mod. I have never evaded the debate within which that phrase is contained.

If anyone has a problem with this input, take your concerns to the Feedback or Help Desk forum. Please do not discuss this further on this thread.

Roaster

therecklessone wrote: »

We could do with a little less of that, thank you.

Apologies if I offended anyone with my remark, I will try an come up with a more pc version:D

LuckyLloyd if you read my post I said IMO it was a good game with a great atmosphere and two committed teams with varying tactics. I did not say it was an end to end game with decent quality football? However, football is about defending and attacking and only for a bad mistake by Rossi Bohs were quiet comfortably holding Salzburg. I can't remember Murphy having to make an outstanding save. He came for everything in the air and had a few headers from 15 yards to catch. Bohs went onto the field to frustrate Salzburg and for 86 mins it worked. It was a very good game plan which unfortunately just fell a little bit short.

Now I'll probably get hammered for this again but if Manu or another premiership team went to Milan or Barca and came back with a draw we'd never hear the end of it. (I also support Arsenal so I'm not have a pop at the prem brigade). I'm not comparing Salzburg to these teams but with regards to the gulf in infrastructure/investment between the our league and the Austrian one, I think Bohs should be applauded for their performance on Wednesday.

By the way congrats to Pats & Derry.

SectionF

therecklessone wrote: »

If anyone has a problem with this input, take your concerns to the Feedback or Help Desk forum. Please do not discuss this further on this thread.

Hey. You brought it up!

dfx-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIFG7AFV62c

..und jetzt, das ist der Treffer für Salzburg! :cool:

Roaster

dfx- wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIFG7AFV62c

..und jetzt, das ist der Treffer für Salzburg! :cool:

You are really putting your hand out to be slapped dfx.

See you on here tomorrow evening

LuckyLloyd

Roaster wrote: »

Apologies if I offended anyone with my remark, I will try an come up with a more pc version:D

LuckyLloyd if you read my post I said IMO it was a good game with a great atmosphere and two committed teams with varying tactics. I did not say it was an end to end game with decent quality football? However, football is about defending and attacking and only for a bad mistake by Rossi Bohs were quiet comfortably holding Salzburg. I can't remember Murphy having to make an outstanding save. He came for everything in the air and had a few headers from 15 yards to catch. Bohs went onto the field to frustrate Salzburg and for 86 mins it worked. It was a very good game plan which unfortunately just fell a little bit short.

Now I'll probably get hammered for this again but if Manu or another premiership team went to Milan or Barca and came back with a draw we'd never hear the end of it. (I also support Arsenal so I'm not have a pop at the prem brigade). I'm not comparing Salzburg to these teams but with regards to the gulf in infrastructure/investment between the our league and the Austrian one, I think Bohs should be applauded for their performance on Wednesday.

By the way congrats to Pats & Derry.

On the same token, if a Man Utd or Liverpool went away in a crucial European tie and lost in such a manner they would be pilloried on this forum, in other forums and the general media. And rightly so. Boh's didn't have a brilliant gameplan. They got a lot of bodies back, packed the middle and aimed to get forward occasionally on the counter. They posed virtually zero threat to the Salzburg defense (including a somewhat shaky looking goalkeeper), established no control on the game in the second half, and constantly coughed up possession easily. Their gameplan produced a situation where they had to sit deep with their backs to the wall for most of the game, when one mistake would condemn them to elimination. Murphy was part of the problem, in that his kick outs were awful, and often ensured that his defenders got no breather or break.

Now, I am not arguing against football analysis being too frequently results orientated, and agree that people saying the gameplan was wrong solely because it was unsuccessful is silly, if they would be singing the opposite tune in the event of the right scoreline at full time. For me, such a way of looking at football is always ridiculous, and I can guarantee you that, even if Boh's had held on, I would have contended that Fenlon's tactics were less than optimal and Slazburg had deserved to go through.

I am frustrated that despite the move to summer soccer and the supposed increase of quality players in the league, the Irish Champions are still reduced to lumping it long and hanging on in order to achieve an upset - and still prone to errors at the crucial moments due to tiredness and a lack of physical preparation. But I am even more frustrated that the fans of the team concerned are lining up here to tell us that is acceptable.

There seems to have been little or no progression since Shel's run in 2004. And if Wednesday is the best that can be produced on the back of a club ruining themselves financially to produce it (with the best coach currently working in the league in charge of the team concerned), then maybe now is the time more than ever to consider scaling things back away from semi professionalism / professionalism.

Nalz

Bateman wrote: »

The word "good" is probably a bit of an empty word. Plenty of knockout champions league games that I've been at have had little more than tension going for them, and the tension alone makes them enjoyable at times, nailbiting at other times, but at the very least memorable. Tension brings a sense of importance to a game of football, it brings a sense that the game actually means something. The players might not be stringing 15 passes together or scoring from 40 yards on the volley, but you can see on the expression on their faces that they are actually earning their wages, not often to be taken for granted these days.

So if you can feel the tension, it's probably the sign of a "good" game by itself. If you pay money to go to football games on a regular basis, tension is as good a reason as any to feel like you have received your money's worth.

well said. very well said

bohsman

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I am frustrated that despite the move to summer soccer and the supposed increase of quality players in the league, the Irish Champions are still reduced to lumping it long and hanging on in order to achieve an upset - and still prone to errors at the crucial moments due to tiredness and a lack of physical preparation. But I am even more frustrated that the fans of the team concerned are lining up here to tell us that is acceptable.

Against a team that cost 200m to build and an away goal in the bag it was always going to happen. Harder to take seeing as we actually did get down the wings a fair bit in the first half. The FAI have to take some blame for making us play a vital league game on the Sunday night. A few players tired earlier than would usually be expected. Powell, Rossiter, Byrne and Brennan were all visibly shattered in the 2nd half, attacking football would have been suicidal.

dfx-

Roaster, I fully expect a Bohs win this morning...you need to win and you have the players to win..doesn't change anything though

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Now, I am not arguing against football analysis being too frequently results orientated, and agree that people saying the gameplan was wrong solely because it was unsuccessful is silly, if they would be singing the opposite tune in the event of the right scoreline at full time. For me, such a way of looking at football is always ridiculous, and I can guarantee you that, even if Boh's had held on, I would have contended that Fenlon's tactics were less than optimal and Slazburg had deserved to go through.

I am frustrated that despite the move to summer soccer and the supposed increase of quality players in the league, the Irish Champions are still reduced to lumping it long and hanging on in order to achieve an upset - and still prone to errors at the crucial moments due to tiredness and a lack of physical preparation. But I am even more frustrated that the fans of the team concerned are lining up here to tell us that is acceptable.

There seems to have been little or no progression since Shel's run in 2004. And if Wednesday is the best that can be produced on the back of a club ruining themselves financially to produce it (with the best coach currently working in the league in charge of the team concerned), then maybe now is the time more than ever to consider scaling things back away from semi professionalism / professionalism.

There's been plenty of progress since 2004 with considerable results in Europe where there was none before. However it was all not sustainable where teams had one or two chances at it before kaboooooom. Slowly slowly professionalism works. Not boom and bust..

Where Bohs should get the criticism is that it was expected by a lot of people that Fenlon would hold out for a 0-0 draw. It was like a horror how happening before your eyes except you know the ending...Bohs have the players to play the football to beat Salzburg, they may not have the money to pay them, but they had them on Wednesday night. To say a Bohs win would've been an upset and they had to resort to long balls to do it is extremely misplaced, in my opinion. To say there was a gulf between Salzburg and Bohs is wrong..Salzburg weren't so much better than Bohs to say that professionalism should be backed away from..and this is a team who are bankrolled, so the ability is here..

And Fenlon certainly is not the best coach in the league.

stovelid

Why do we always have to get the analysis of whether LOI games constitute good football? I've watched plenty of tactically and aesthetically bereft Liverpool games (or plenty of other EPL games) but it never seems to be a constant point of discussion?

therecklessone

stovelid wrote: »

Why do we always have to get the analysis of whether LOI games constitute good football? I've watched plenty of tactically and aesthetically bereft Liverpool games (or plenty of other EPL games) but it never seems to be a constant point of discussion?

In the context of most PL games, the fans of said clubs usually couldn't care less how good a game was as long as they got the result. I'm sure Bohs fans were of a similar mindset on Wednesday night.

In general, the smaller number of contributors to LOI threads means that the few who want to talk about the quality of football stand out more. Believe me, it happens when it comes to PL football, it just seems less regular because there are more people posting who don't care.

SectionF

therecklessone wrote: »

In the context of most PL games, the fans of said clubs usually couldn't care less how good a game was as long as they got the result. I'm sure Bohs fans were of a similar mindset on Wednesday night.

In general, the smaller number of contributors to LOI threads means that the few who want to talk about the quality of football stand out more. Believe me, it happens when it comes to PL football, it just seems less regular because there are more people posting who don't care.

Beg to differ. There are more than boards.ie dynamics in play here.

It's almost obligatory for Irish media, given any excuse, a mis-hit shot or a wayward pass, to deride the standard of play in a LoI game. They judge it by world standards: it's their way of registering vainly that they are used to finer fare, such as the CL finals, etc. Contrast that with the default tone on Sky, which is almost permanently set on ecstatic.

That mindset finds it way to general discourse. Actually, I think it's remarkable how an apparently independent group of people such as this forum will generally parrot mainstream media.

Nalz

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I and still prone to errors at the crucial moments due to tiredness and a lack of physical preparation.

Red Bull had one chance really, a team that were bringing on international strikers as subsitutes, a front three which costs 250,000, 3m and 1.5m respectively... its frustrating Bohs didnt create much after Byrnes two chances, but I thought they defended well for 86mins.

Anto McC

therecklessone wrote: »

In general, the smaller number of contributors to LOI threads means that the few who want to talk about the quality of football stand out more. Believe me, it happens when it comes to PL football, it just seems less regular because there are more people posting who don't care.

What a load of garbage :rolleyes: I've stopped coming to this part of the Boards forum because of nonsense like this. It's one thing to subject LoI fans to it but to try and say it happens everywhere is pure crap.

Most people here wouldn't know a good game of football if there where sitting in the centre circle and i find them to be non-LoI fans mostly (though there are exceptions too). Andy Gray tells the people of this country when they've seen a good game of ball and they in turn tell each other.

djpbarry

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There seems to have been little or no progression since Shel's run in 2004.

Depends how you measure progress; the overall performance of League of Ireland clubs in Europe was better in 05/06, 06/07 and 08/09 than it was in 04/05, the year of Shels’ run.

noodler

Anto McC wrote: »

What a load of garbage :rolleyes: I've stopped coming to this part of the Boards forum because of nonsense like this. It's one thing to subject LoI fans to it but to try and say it happens everywhere is pure crap.

Most people here wouldn't know a good game of football if there where sitting in the centre circle and i find them to be non-LoI fans mostly (though there are exceptions too). Andy Gray tells the people of this country when they've seen a good game of ball and they in turn tell each other.

If I had a tenner for every overweight, non-football playing LOI fan with a holier-than-thou attitude tell me what real football is then I would be a rich rich man.

Anto McC

At what point did i tell you what real football is?

Oh and i'm not over-weight and i'm perfectly fit from all that football i play, want to try make an even bigger fool of yourself?

noodler

It wasn't pointed at you specifically, just every LOI fan with your holier-than-thou attitude.


EDIT: Nice to see you are defensive about how much football you play/your weight.

Anto McC

For what it's worth Noodler, i know the standard of football in LoI is mostly ****e and there was a time when i thought anyone who supported a Premership team a thick but now i envy you all because the LoI is now such a f*cking joke and fans of teams of other leagues don't have to put up with the crap LoI fans have too, if i could stop going to Shels games, i would but i can't stop i'm in too deep.

Oh and another point is, i believe, there are far more idiots supporting the LoI then the Premiership too but my point still stands about Andy Gray and Sky Sports. I'm just showing you i'm not as biased as you may think.

noodler

I don't care if you support the LOI, hell it is even admirable. I just can't fake it, I can't pretend I feel the same way for Shels that I do for Liverpool. It was engrained in me as a young lad and now its very difficult to get people to visit these games when they don't really have the passion for the sides in question.

All I am saying is not to assume PL fans don't know what they are talking about all the time.


EDIT: There has been definite and tangible progress in LOI clubs' performances in Europe over the last 5 years. Even a fairweather fan like me who only really bothers when a LOI side is in European action can tell.

therecklessone

Anto McC wrote: »

What a load of garbage :rolleyes: I've stopped coming to this part of the Boards forum because of nonsense like this. It's one thing to subject LoI fans to it but to try and say it happens everywhere is pure crap.

Most people here wouldn't know a good game of football if there where sitting in the centre circle and i find them to be non-LoI fans mostly (though there are exceptions too). Andy Gray tells the people of this country when they've seen a good game of ball and they in turn tell each other.

Speaking for myself I ditched Sky and Setanta a while ago, so Andy Gray doesn't tell me a thing.

I get most of my PL fix live and in the flesh (looking at 13 games before Christmas)

And from my own point of view, last season aside most of the "glamour" games in English football are about as exciting as watching paint dry.

But yeah, you just jump down my throat there...

noodler

BTW, lets not pretend that Andy Gray is wrong all the time either. I mean he can actually make a good point or two, especially regarding knitpicking referees.

Theres just as much to complain about on OTT RTE or jobs-for-the-boyos BBC.

LuckyLloyd

Trilla wrote: »

Red Bull had one chance really, a team that were bringing on international strikers as subsitutes, a front three which costs 250,000, 3m and 1.5m respectively... its frustrating Bohs didnt create much after Byrnes two chances, but I thought they defended well for 86mins.

They had a couple of good looks from crosses / set pieces in the last half hour. The big lad up front had got a particularly good look a couple of minutes before the eventual winner.

LuckyLloyd

djpbarry wrote: »

Depends how you measure progress; the overall performance of League of Ireland clubs in Europe was better in 05/06, 06/07 and 08/09 than it was in 04/05, the year of Shels’ run.

That's true, but it hasn't produced a team in the group stages of either competition as of yet (hopefully Pats or Derry can get there over the coming few weeks). So, there is hurdle that has yet to be crossed, and a great opportunity to jump it against an average side was left a begging on Wednesday (with the promise of a beatable side to come in the next round).

dfx-

It's only 5 years, LL, from a point where Odra Wodzislawa invited Rovers watch them train in 2003 such was their disregard for Irish football...and duly lost. And no one team has had a sustained go at it. You have to walk before you can run..

One thing for sure is that shying away from semi-professionalism is not the way forward..

Roaster wrote: »

See you on here tomorrow evening

Roaster

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

They had a couple of good looks from crosses / set pieces in the last half hour. The big lad up front had got a particularly good look a couple of minutes before the eventual winner.

I beg to differ. If good looks constitutes crossing the ball into the box and either Murphy catching them or a few headers from 15 yards which again easily sailed into Murphy's arms then yes. The big lad headed a ball 3 yards wide. On that note you could say Jayo Byrne just headed a ball over the bar in the 1st half.

stovelid

noodler wrote: »

It wasn't pointed at you specifically, just every LOI fan with your holier-than-thou attitude.

It was probably my statement that diverted us here and I honestly didn't mean it as holier-than-thou. I wouldn't bring t up in an EPL thread, but the thread is about LOI. I honestly just never see the validity analysis applied to football other than LOI.

The critique about limited football is certainly true about many LOI games, but it's also true about many of the clubs lauded here.

Not that it matters to me. I'm a football fan. The broad church of my interest can accommodate stellar Madrid football, Catenaccio and hoofball. Each has it's own intrigue and fascination.

The point that 'bad football' makes the league unpopular is totally wrong. I watch it every week. Even flowing football wouldn't address the drift away from the local game which is for another thread, I guess. I saw Sean O' Connor score an absolute fucking beaut of a first-touch chip from the wing against Drogs a few weeks back. It would figure on many people's goal of the year here if it was in the EL or La Liga.

Wasn't singling out Lloyd either who seems like a decent guy, but it seems like even some supposed LOI fans don't ever approach LOI discussion in the same visceral, passionate manner that they do their EPL clubs. The EPL is as riddled with probllems as the LOI in many ways. A team like Chelsea could cease to exist in a few months with the right congruence of circumstance. Consider some of Liverpool's European games against so-called ootballing sides that to the non-football fan were turgid. Not to us obviously because they were decent away battles with their own intrigue. The Bohs game was more or less the same tactic but yet one is just discussed tactically; the other is seen as a 'failed product'.

I'm not turning this into a LOI debate. I'm sorry, It's just something I noticed and I'm not looking for an answer or rebuttal or LOI vs EPL fight so the thread can proceed as before.

bohsman

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There seems to have been little or no progression since Shel's run in 2004. And if Wednesday is the best that can be produced on the back of a club ruining themselves financially to produce it (with the best coach currently working in the league in charge of the team concerned), then maybe now is the time more than ever to consider scaling things back away from semi professionalism / professionalism.

This is just plain wrong. In the UEFA country rankings over the last 4 seasons its been 40,35,35 and next season we will be 30th. These are big steps - Bohs were 2 league results away from being seeded and avoiding the likes of Salzburg this season, a move to 29th/UEFA cup winners qualifying for CL would leave one team enter the europa league one round later.

Link to 2010 country rankings - http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method4/crank2010.html

Professional football is sustainable in this country, having squads on an average wage of €72k a year is not.

pablomakaveli

bohsman wrote: »

Professional football is sustainable in this country, having squads on an average wage of €72k a year is not.

I read an interview with Brian Murphy in one of the papers yesterday and he was basically saying that if all the teams in Ireland go back to part-time status we'll have our teams being trashed on a regular basis in Europe like the teams in NI.

If a lot of teams go part-time next season we'll probably see all the progress made in the rankings go to waste over the next few seasons. This may be the last season for a while in which we can hope to see Irish teams do well in Europe.

elshambo

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I read an interview with Brian Murphy in one of the papers yesterday and he was basically saying that if all the teams in Ireland go back to part-time status we'll have our teams being trashed on a regular basis in Europe like the teams in NI.

If a lot of teams go part-time next season we'll probably see all the progress made in the rankings go to waste over the next few seasons. This may be the last season for a while in which we can hope to see Irish teams do well in Europe.

All well and good but keep going as is and in two years time, when bohs/cork hotspurs/drogs are in the first division with 17/18 yr old's on the pitch, will he care about that looking over the water from his two up two down in Carlisle/Rochdale etc etc?:eek:

LuckyLloyd

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I read an interview with Brian Murphy in one of the papers yesterday and he was basically saying that if all the teams in Ireland go back to part-time status we'll have our teams being trashed on a regular basis in Europe like the teams in NI.

If a lot of teams go part-time next season we'll probably see all the progress made in the rankings go to waste over the next few seasons. This may be the last season for a while in which we can hope to see Irish teams do well in Europe.

Yeah, so what? Shels, Drogheda, Cork and now Bohemians have gone to the financial brink attempting to win the league and step it up in European competition. If it requires teams literally busting themselves in order for them to do well enough in Europe to advance the league's co - efficient then it simply isn't worth it. Talk about the league's progress in Europe (and I stand corrected - clearly there has been progress) is irrelevant if that progress is based on unsustainable operating practices in terms of salaries and running costs.

Boh's competed well over two legs against Salzburg, but they have ultimately failed massively as an organization if winning was required in order to save the club's financial future. There is loads of talk of being 'proud' in this thread, but I see nothing prideful in that I'm afraid.

Clubs from Northern Ireland get stomped on in Europe, but they don't have to worry about their top clubs going out of business (that I am aware of). It's all well and good to be ambitious, but ambition has to be tempered with sense and realism. Otherwise, it is just stupid.

bohsman

Agree completely Lloyd however I do think that Irish teams can remain competetive while staying pro and offering lower wages, the majority of players in the Bohs squad would still be in the league at half the wages.

We needed to do well in the group stages of the CL to save the clubs financial future, anything less was just keeping the wolves from the door for another few months.

elshambo

bohsman wrote: »

the majority of players in the Bohs squad would still be in the league at half the wages.

Thats the key point right there!
Same for Cork
Same for Pats (actually most of Pats squad would still be here on 1/3 or less)

Too many clubs paying over the odds to prove how big a club they are rather than paying for the quality deserving of the wages

there was 3 or 4 years of c**k measuring going on and it has to end!


+FAI have to take some blame for the 65% rule being player wages not whole club wages, someone idiot who thought he was being smart was bound to pay players as coaches/ground staff/tea ladies to get round it!

LuckyLloyd

bohsman wrote: »

Agree completely Lloyd however I do think that Irish teams can remain competetive while staying pro and offering lower wages, the majority of players in the Bohs squad would still be in the league at half the wages.

We needed to do well in the group stages of the CL to save the clubs financial future, anything less was just keeping the wolves from the door for another few months.

Yep, I know - you said as much to me before the game kicked off. It is disgraceful that clubs continue to put themselves in such situations. We have LOI fans raging at the FAI / 'barstoolers' / the media / opposition clubs constantly around here. Why aren't they raging at those running their own clubs into the ground financially? Seems to me that most of the Boh's fans who post here are fully aware of the depth of their club's financial plight, and have been for some time. Why haven't you been vocally complaining about that to your club, calling for the squad to be gutted and costs cut back? Why are you all content to shrug the shoulders and enjoy winning in the short term when relegation and part - time players is sure to follow in the long - term?

I completely agree that the majority of your current squad would still play for you at 50% or less of their current take home pay. Given the dire economic situation the country as a whole finds themselves in, you should have squeezed your squad by the balls before the season started. But, you would lose your best players to League Two / One if you did that (Deegan, Powell, Murphy) and I can't imagine those that remained being as committed and psychologically prepared. Ultimately, paying out less would equate to a diminished end performance on the pitch in a tie like Wednesday. You get what you pay for in football.

But a reduced competitiveness on Wednesday in return for a stable future is surely a fair trade off, and one all true fans of the club would jump at, yes?

pablomakaveli

bohsman wrote: »

Agree completely Lloyd however I do think that Irish teams can remain competetive while staying pro and offering lower wages, the majority of players in the Bohs squad would still be in the league at half the wages.

I agree with this. The reason wages spiralled out of control was due to the merry go round with players in the league every season. Being offered more money to move to club X or being offered more money by their own club so they won't move to club X.

There's no reason why some clubs can't maintain their pro status. But this culture of offering ridiculous wages needs to be stamped out.

The Rooster

Roaster wrote: »

Why would any LOI team give away the rights to a game for nothing? €30K from Austrian TV, €0 from RTE, now let me think about that one...

You honestly think one game (and a club giving up €30k) is going to get barstoolers to sign-up, cop-on!

It was actually a very good game. Great atmosphere and two committed teams with different tactics. Gutted for Bohs!

It was nothing to do and had no impact on the Austrian rights. This was purely for the Irish live rights.

And if what you say is correct Bohs missed a great chance to showcase a very good game with a great atmosphere to a wider public.

noodler

I read that, although Bohs got 30K for selling the rights to the Austrians, it still cost them 12k to setup production for a TV audience (seeing as how there was nothing already setup).

In that case, surely it is quite obvious why you wouldn't give the rights away if you are expected to provide the facilities?

bohsman

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Yep, I know - you said as much to me before the game kicked off. It is disgraceful that clubs continue to put themselves in such situations. We have LOI fans raging at the FAI / 'barstoolers' / the media / opposition clubs constantly around here. Why aren't they raging at those running their own clubs into the ground financially? Seems to me that most of the Boh's fans who post here are fully aware of the depth of their club's financial plight, and have been for some time. Why haven't you been vocally complaining about that to your club, calling for the squad to be gutted and costs cut back? Why are you all content to shrug the shoulders and enjoy winning in the short term when relegation and part - time players is sure to follow in the long - term?

I completely agree that the majority of your current squad would still play for you at 50% or less of their current take home pay. Given the dire economic situation the country as a whole finds themselves in, you should have squeezed your squad by the balls before the season started. But, you would lose your best players to League Two / One if you did that (Deegan, Powell, Murphy) and I can't imagine those that remained being as committed and psychologically prepared. Ultimately, paying out less would equate to a diminished end performance on the pitch in a tie like Wednesday. You get what you pay for in football.

But a reduced competitiveness on Wednesday in return for a stable future is surely a fair trade off, and one all true fans of the club would jump at, yes?

Bohs have about 500 members, at this stage about 50% seem to be yes men, believe everything the board told them, know them for years, dont know the vocal (growing) minority who rightly blamed the board for the mess we're in. In May we elected a new board that will hopefully turn things around - 2 of the old crowd remained but the rest look as if they have the clubs interests at heart, have noticed a few changes already, its wait and see now.

Deegan seemed to say goodbye to the fans at the end of the game on Sunday and Id say Murphy will be gone by the end of the English transfer window, anyone else that we get an offer for will be gone aswell.