NARGC director's report on the Firearms Act

Sparks

Was sent this today (don't know if the sender wants to remain anonymous). It's a reasonably accurate summary of the state of play, though I don't personally agree with some of Des' thoughts on things as expressed in here.

cavan shooter

looks /seems ok,

Few questions though?

Is the form only available through down load ??
Can I only change my firearm every three years??
I'm not a member of an authorised clay range but shoot weekly at mourne and maybe courtlough, would a letter saying this keep the superintendent happy if I wanted 750 -1000 cartridges to do me the summer??

I think Secretaries are going to be busy helping lads fill out forms:eek:

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

....... though I don't personally agree with some of Des' thoughts on things as expressed in here.

Care to elaborate?

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

Care to elaborate?

• I don't think it makes things easier for shooters to have a 3 year EFP rather than a 5 year one
• A 9-page form, especially if you don't fill in all of it but only bits, is unwieldy; and if it's one form to do everything, is both unwieldy, inefficient, awkward on those processing it and downright wasteful
• 1000 rounds for a target shooter isn't a good thing, ten times that is the minimum amount needed for a serious rifle shooter (five times if it's air rifle)
• Being ordered to meet the local clubs twice a year isn't going to guarantee good relations with the local Super. It's an opportunity, but it could go either way depending on how the club handle it
• Section 2(2B) of the Firearms Act 1925 was removed by the 2006 Criminal Justice Act
• It *is* a big deal that the Minister can now prohibit firearms, and it was *not* necessary that the mechanism be brought in, the Restricted Firearms mechanism provided all that was required for public safety here

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

I don't think it makes things easier for shooters to have a 3 year EFP rather than a 5 year one

Except it's not for five years, but for one. It's whichever is the shorter: the expiry date of the licence for which the EFP relates or ten years for a shotgun or five for anything else.

A 9-page form, especially if you don't fill in all of it but only bits, is unwieldy; and if it's one form to do everything, is both unwieldy, inefficient, awkward on those processing it and downright wasteful

Multiple forms for effectively the same thing is a recipe for disaster. We all use the same form for passports and there's a lot more poeple looking for passports than those looking for firearms certs. If you think 9 pages is bad, try and remain in PAYE employment because you'll absolutely hate the self assessment tax form: a mere bagatelle at 24 pages and counting.

1000 rounds for a target shooter isn't a good thing, ten times that is the minimum amount needed for a serious rifle shooter (five times if it's air rifle)

I thought it said that there was scope to increase that if needed?

Being ordered to meet the local clubs twice a year isn't going to guarantee good relations with the local Super. It's an opportunity, but it could go either way depending on how the club handle it

Not being ordered to do it means it won't be done. It's a vital part of a club's business to be in contact with the Gardai and formalising it means it won't be long fingered. What would you suggest as an alternative?

It *is* a big deal that the Minister can now prohibit firearms, and it was *not* necessary that the mechanism be brought in, the Restricted Firearms mechanism provided all that was required for public safety here

Well to be fair you didn't like that bit either

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

Except it's not for five years, but for one. It's whichever is the shorter: the expiry date of the licence for which the EFP relates or ten years for a shotgun or five for anything else.

It's a moot point at this stage, but I was of the impression that since our licences are renewed each year instead of new licences (with new PULSE numbers and all) being issued, your EFP did last five years (or ten for shotguns).

Multiple forms for effectively the same thing is a recipe for disaster. We all use the same form for passports and there's a lot more poeple looking for passports than those looking for firearms certs. If you think 9 pages is bad, try and remain in PAYE employment because you'll absolutely hate the self assessment tax form: a mere bagatelle at 24 pages and counting.

Yes, but that's so tax accountants can stay in business. Don't go knocking our economy like that
But I'll reserve judgement. If they can do a reasonable job on it, as was done for passports, that'd change my mind. But the track record for document design for firearms stuff is... well, sub-par.

I thought it said that there was scope to increase that if needed?

There's scope - but we're talking a full order of magnitude more here. Your average Garda is going to look at 10,000 on the form and have a kitten thinking you're trying to arm a small platoon for the revolution...

Not being ordered to do it means it won't be done. It's a vital part of a club's business to be in contact with the Gardai and formalising it means it won't be long fingered. What would you suggest as an alternative?

You don't understand - I don't disagree with it being ordered, I'm just saying that if the clubs don't step up and put effort in, it'll just go sideways. It's an opportunity, yes, but nothing more.

Well to be fair you didn't like that bit either

No, and to be fairer, the Restricted Weapons mechanism was brought in by the same act that removed 2(2B)...

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

It's a moot point at this stage, but I was of the impression that since our licences are renewed each year instead of new licences (with new PULSE numbers and all) being issued, your EFP did last five years (or ten for shotguns).

(c) The period specified in the European Firearms Pass as the period for which it is to be valid shall be whichever is the shorter of the following;
(i) the period ending on the expiry of a certificate relating to a firearm identified in the pass
(ii) the maximum period for the duration of that pass.

Yes, but that's so tax accountants can stay in business. Don't go knocking our economy like that

It was intended that individuals could fill them in also....

There's scope - but we're talking a full order of magnitude more here. Your average Garda is going to look at 10,000 on the form and have a kitten thinking you're trying to arm a small platoon for the revolution...

Well 1000 is a full order of magnitude greater than what many Gardai believed the absolute maximum to be. You don't have to dig back far on this forum to find people complaining that they couldn't get more than 100.

You don't understand - I don't disagree with it being ordered, I'm just saying that if the clubs don't step up and put effort in, it'll just go sideways. It's an opportunity, yes, but nothing more.

But we should not be intimating that it's optional, it's an important part of a club's duties and shouldn't be understated.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

(c) The period specified in the European Firearms Pass as the period for which it is to be valid shall be whichever is the shorter of the following;
(i) the period ending on the expiry of a certificate relating to a firearm identified in the pass
(ii) the maximum period for the duration of that pass.

Yes, but when you renewed your licence, you didn't need a new EFP, because you'd changed the expiry date, not the actual certificate, if you follow me.
Actually, now that I think about it, unless the new EFP SI changes that, that'll still be the case...

Well 1000 is a full order of magnitude greater than what many Gardai believed the absolute maximum to be. You don't have to dig back far on this forum to find people complaining that they couldn't get more than 100.

Yup. But I'm not going to use what the average Garda in Mayo thinks as the ideal standard for how many rounds should be on the licence

But we should not be intimating that it's optional, it's an important part of a club's duties and shouldn't be understated.

Darn right - it's right there in the WTSC and DURC constitutions as part of the official duties of the Captain/Chairman and the CRO. I'm just saying that Des seemed to be taking too much of a "erra, it'll be grand" stand on it.

jwshooter

its going to take a lot of pistols out of circulation like my own that was not used for competition or range use.
also any one with a full bore that in not stalking or in a registered target club is in bother.

rrpc

(c) The period specified in the European Firearms Pass as the period for which it is to be valid shall be whichever is the shorter of the following;
(i) the period ending on the expiry of a certificate relating to a firearm identified in the pass
(ii) the maximum period for the duration of that pass.

Sparks wrote: »

Yes, but when you renewed your licence, you didn't need a new EFP, because you'd changed the expiry date, not the actual certificate, if you follow me.
Actually, now that I think about it, unless the new EFP SI changes that, that'll still be the case...

Not being pedantic, but your certificate changes on renewal and is no longer the same one you had last year.
In any case the operative word is 'expiry' which for every firearms cert was 31st July.
I was always advised to renew my EFP every year along with my FAC and AFAIK that advice is given by the ICPSA to their people as well.

Jonty

I can foresee a lot of problems "ammending" the credit card style licenses. It will be treated like a new application, reading from above. This will mean a greater delay in licensing in my book.

bunny shooter

jwshooter wrote: »

its going to take a lot of pistols out of circulation like my own that was not used for competition or range use.
also any one with a full bore that in not stalking or in a registered target club is in bother.

If you got it for range use and competitions and haven't used it for same I have no sympathy for you.

And all those who joined a club, got a pistol, and never joined again :mad:

You just have to feel sorry for them

bunny shooter

Jonty wrote: »

I can foresee a lot of problems "ammending" the credit card style licenses. It will be treated like a new application, reading from above. This will mean a greater delay in licensing in my book.

I heard that an "amendment" would be done in 10 days ?

Jonty

bunny shooter wrote: »

I heard that an "amendment" would be done in 10 days ?

Bull. They'll take the old card off you, send it to the super with said paperwork, who will send it to Dublin and they in turn will return it to the Super and will put it in his top drawer like the rest of the new applications.

The best thing about ammendments was that it cut out a paper trail.

Go to FO, show receipt, out with Biro, there you go - thanks FO!!!

bunny shooter

I agree with you Jonty :eek: That must be a first

spideog7

All looks good in my book, but when is renewal time?? Surely all our licenses are up come end of the month. So what happens between now and November? Are they going to maintain the current system whereby everyone's license ends at the same time ie. 31st October 2012 will see rush on new licences or will it be more like the driving licences where it's 3 years form date of issue, which can happen at any time.

I particularly like that you can put down the amount of cartridges you require, the measly 25 I have at the moment is nothing short of disgraceful.

rrpc

spideog7 wrote: »

All looks good in my book, but when is renewal time?? Surely all our licenses are up come end of the month. So what happens between now and November? Are they going to maintain the current system whereby everyone's license ends at the same time ie. 31st October 2012 will see rush on new licences or will it be more like the driving licences where it's 3 years form date of issue, which can happen at any time.

This was explained on the thread for the Bill. Briefly, every licence is being extended and you will have three months to apply for the new ones. That's where the 1st November comes in because three months from 31st July is 1st November. All the licences are being split up into groups and every month a new group will expire up until 31st July 2010.

So we will all have different renewal dates.

BornToKill

Jonty wrote: »

The best thing about ammendments was that it cut out a paper trail.

Go to FO, show receipt, out with Biro, there you go - thanks FO!!!

And that's exactly why it had to be changed under the new system. From what I hear a 'like-for-like' change (calibre, reason) will take about 10 days. Changes other than that would probably be a new application.

Jonty

BornToKill wrote: »

And that's exactly why it had to be changed under the new system. From what I hear a 'like-for-like' change (calibre, reason) will take about 10 days. Changes other than that would probably be a new application.

It probably won't change. It might be that the FO can still decide if a license can be ammended i.e. go from 22 to 223 or 22 to 17 or whether it will merit a new application. I for one would be in favour of this.

Despite what people think, these new regs will still be interpreted by each Super differently.

foxshooter243

Jonty wrote: »

It probably won't change. It might be that the FO can still decide if a license can be ammended i.e. go from 22 to 223 or 22 to 17 or whether it will merit a new application. I for one would be in favour of this.

Despite what people think, these new regs will still be interpreted by easc Super differently.

Agreed !..the interpretation im hearing from our local boys is nothing short of chaotic-one of them even told me that a 243 is now the highest calibre
thats going to be issued:rolleyes:

PJ Hunter

A 9-page form, especially if you don't fill in all of it but only bits, is unwieldy; and if it's one form to do everything, is both unwieldy, inefficient, awkward on those processing it and downright wasteful.



what is it. one 9-page form to do everything or duplication of the forms for every firearm. example, five firearms will need the 9-page form x 5 and your photo x10. how many credit cards licenses will be issued for someone with 5 guns. one or five. where are the photos going . on the credit card? we will be renewing ( 3+ year from now) using this same application / renewal form,
if you had a gun license for the year 2008 - 09 will you be applying or fill in the renew part of this new form. can the firearms dealer see what your ammunition allowance is, will it be printed on the credit card license.

It *is* a big deal that the Minister can now prohibit firearms, and it was *not* necessary that the mechanism be brought in, the Restricted Firearms mechanism provided all that was required for public safety here



"the government at the initiative of the minister has the legal authority to ban any firearm".

does the minister soon have the legal authority to ban without the government been told why? for example the minister could ban lead shot on the grounds of public safety without telling the government or anyone why. is this true.

rrpc

PJ Hunter wrote: »

what is it. one 9-page form to do everything or duplication of the forms for every firearm. example, five firearms will need the 9-page form x 5 and your photo x10. how many credit cards licenses will be issued for someone with 5 guns. one or five. where are the photos going . on the credit card? we will be renewing ( 3+ year from now) using this same application / renewal form,
if you had a gun license for the year 2008 - 09 will you be applying or fill in the renew part of this new form. can the firearms dealer see what your ammunition allowance is, will it be printed on the credit card license.

AFAIK, the photo does not go on the licence for security reasons (you lose your licence somewhere and people not only know your name but what you look like as well).
Each firearm is a seperate licence. We've discussed OMOL on here for years, but it's not going to happen in the near future if ever.
I presume it's one form per licence also, and much the same info that's on the current licence will be on the new one although a lot of the text will be gone obviously.

does the minister soon have the legal authority to ban without the government been told why? for example the minister could ban lead shot on the grounds of public safety without telling the government or anyone why. is this true.

As with any decision a Minister can make it is open to question in the Dail.

PJ, would you spend a bit of time learning the quote /quote system, it's a pain in the ass trying to figure out what you're posting or quoting.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

As with any decision a Minister can make it is open to question in the Dail.

Important to note, however, the rather breath-taking gaps between being open to being questioned, actually being questioned, being answered, and there being any legal mechanism to challange the decision...

fish slapped

Just a quick question on the new 14 year old's training licence (as he's wrecking me head:rolleyes:).

This licence is applicable to what cal.'s for rifle .22lr, .223rem or above ??

Would it allow him to take part in competitions at an authorised range as a guess?

thanks FS

jwshooter

FS its shotgun only i under stand.

Sparks

jwshooter wrote: »

FS its shotgun only i under stand.

No, it's everything.

fish slapped

Sparks wrote: »

No, it's everything.

So I could get him licenced on my .223 for target and foxing with permission letters form 3 farmers?

Sparks

Thats the idea allright.

fish slapped

He's just done a lovely little dance around the kitchen floor :rolleyes::)

rrpc

fish slapped wrote: »

He's just done a lovely little dance around the kitchen floor :rolleyes::)

There's nothing definite on this yet, so might be an idea to keep the dancing to small baby steps

The proposals put forward were that it would be for a class of firearm rather than a particular firearm. I'm not sure how far that travelled, but I'm hopeful that it'll be the case.

For training purposes, it's better for it to be a class of firearm because of the possibility of being trained in different places by different people. For example a young lad being trained on clays may end up using whoever's gun is free at the time available to compete at a shoot or in a club the next available club rifle etc.

Btw FS, I love your sig , I had to put on my sunglasses and I then spotted he was cross-dominant

fish slapped

Thanks RRPC, I AIM to please :D I thought I suited the moment

And a class of firearm would be a bonus.