NARGC director's report on the Firearms Act

Our man in Havana

How does it work for persons operating off farmers permission letters? Will I need to get new letters?

Vegeta

Some good and bad as Sparks points out.

As an on the ground everyday thing I think having to carry multiple credit card licenses is poor.

Applying for ammendments now seems a pain the hole.

Vegeta

rrpc wrote: »

This was explained on the thread for the Bill. Briefly, every licence is being extended and you will have three months to apply for the new ones. That's where the 1st November comes in because three months from 31st July is 1st November. All the licences are being split up into groups and every month a new group will expire up until 31st July 2010.

So we will all have different renewal dates.

Quick question on this rrpc, who contacts who?

Will we be contacted, as you say in 3 staggered waves, or do we download the application and then submit it ourselves?

daveob007

Vegeta wrote: »

Quick question on this rrpc, who contacts who?

Will we be contacted, as you say in 3 staggered waves, or do we download the application and then submit it ourselves?

You will be contacted by the garda commish with a cover letter which is an extension to your cert.
you will be given a date for which to apply for the new 3 year licence.
thats it just wait for the letter

rrpc

Vegeta wrote: »

Quick question on this rrpc, who contacts who?

Will we be contacted, as you say in 3 staggered waves, or do we download the application and then submit it ourselves?

I think we'll all be contacted at the same time. Remember every licence has to be extended and unless we are written to with the extension as soon as possible after the 31st July, we'll be unlicensed.

When we'll get to renew will be randomly spread from November 2009 to July 2010.

daveob007

fish slapped wrote: »

Just a quick question on the new 14 year old's training licence (as he's wrecking me head:rolleyes:).

This licence is applicable to what cal.'s for rifle .22lr, .223rem or above ??

Would it allow him to take part in competitions at an authorised range as a guess?

thanks FS

tarining licence should only be for a .22lr only for a 14 year old.
14 is too young for anything bigger than that.
also a 14 year old has no expierience whatsoever.

rrpc

daveob007 wrote: »

tarining licence should only be for a .22lr only for a 14 year old.
14 is too young for anything bigger than that.
also a 14 year old has no expierience whatsoever.

No offence Dave, but it's a training licence.

That means that the individual is only licensed to use the firearm under the supervision of an adult for training and competitive purposes only.

Under supervision of an adult.

The adult in question is required to make the value judgment as to whether the 14 year old is capable of using the firearm in the first place. They will also make sure that it is safe to do so.

I think FS should know what his kid is capable of.

It wasn't me!

daveob007 wrote: »

tarining licence should only be for a .22lr only for a 14 year old.
14 is too young for anything bigger than that.
also a 14 year old has no expierience whatsoever.

Or shotguns? Or airguns? And why not fullbores if they become accustomed and capable quickly? It's not as though they're going to be incapable of handling the recoil of most rifles and shotguns. If they're capable and competent, it's not appropriate to arbitrarily limit them in their choices.

Sparks

daveob007 wrote: »

tarining licence should only be for a .22lr only for a 14 year old.
14 is too young for anything bigger than that.
also a 14 year old has no expierience whatsoever.

The swiss would disagree with you there:

Das Zürcher Knabenschiessen

On the second weekend in September each year, about 4'000 Zurich boys, ages 12 to 16, (and since 1991 girls too) take part in a marksmanship contest. They use a modern rifle like the one they will later be issued in the army. The winner, who generally is picked in an elimination round on Monday, is named King of the Marksmen and holds the spotlight for a day.

About a third of the competitors may select prizes, which have been donated by Zurich firms and private individuals, on the basis of points scored. For a few days (Saturday to Monday), the region around the Albisgüetli butts to the southwest of the city becomes an amusement park said to be the biggest in Switzerland. There are booths and stalls of every kind, rides, and other attractions favored by the large number of visitors.

The custom dates back to the seventeenth century, when all boys were required to practice their shooting during the summer holidays. The final marksmanship contest served as a type of examination. Later on, the compulsory event was modified to voluntary cadet training. Since 1920, the Riflemen's Association of Zurich has hosted this traditional shoot.

For further information www.knabenschiessen.ch

And there's a writeup of the weekend by a US shooter here. Nice photos:



(Note that the girl at the very foreground of the picture is coaching, not observing...)

fish slapped

daveob007 wrote: »

tarining licence should only be for a .22lr only for a 14 year old.
14 is too young for anything bigger than that.
also a 14 year old has no expierience whatsoever.

Under proper supervision on a range I don't see any reason a 14 year old could not use a .223.

many 30 odd year olds go out and buy firearms with no experience either !!

Remember this is a training licence and would be used under supervision, not a licence to wander the fields as one pleases with a firearm.

thanks Sparks , seems you got in before me and in STYLE!

daveob007

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Or shotguns? Or airguns? And why not fullbores if they become accustomed and capable quickly? It's not as though they're going to be incapable of handling the recoil of most rifles and shotguns. If they're capable and competent, it's not appropriate to arbitrarily limit them in their choices.

Just the way that i will be doing it .22 only.
its a bit like driving,i would'nt let a learner drive a big 2l car,,better to start small and get the expierience.
SAFETY FIRST FUN LATER

It wasn't me!

daveob007 wrote: »

Just the way that i will be doing it .22 only.
its a bit like driving,i would'nt let a learner drive a big 2l car,,better to start small and get the expierience.
SAFETY FIRST FUN LATER

Yep, absolutely, but there's no difference in safety terms between using a .22lr and a .308. Both require the exact same principles for safe usage and if I don't trust someone with one, I wouldn't trust them with the other. In any case, the idea is that they're being trained, as has been stated. Sure, start them out with an airgun (better than a .22LR in any case), but their age is not a determining factor in their capability to use any firearm responsibly. I've seen a lot of people well into their middle and older years I'm not comfortable being around when they have a firearm.

Vegeta

daveob007 wrote: »

Just the way that i will be doing it .22 only.
its a bit like driving,i would'nt let a learner drive a big 2l car,,better to start small and get the expierience.
SAFETY FIRST FUN LATER

That's a silly attitude dave, going with your analogy, even a 1.0l Micra can do high speed. So why is a Micra safer than a 2.0l car?

There are advantages to starting shooting with a .22lr, cost of ammo, recoil management etc etc but it does not make it less prone to accidents/safer. Good firearm safety/handling has nothing to do with the calibre of the gun tbh.

fish slapped

I think the problem Dave is your wording as in :

"tarining licence should only be for a .22lr only for a 14 year old.
14 is too young for anything bigger than that.
also a 14 year old has no expierience whatsoever. "

this is not offered as an opinion or as a suggestion and is stated as if it were FACT, therefore it also makes assumptions about my 14 year old hence could get my back up.

Perhaps a little more thought on the wording may help.

FS

Sparks

To be honest, after years of training juniors, the only limits we've found that have any reality to them are things few seem to consider; like how much the firearm weighs if they're shooting standing (or without a bipod or rest), how long the stock is, how loud the report is, and what their parents think of the whole thing.

Calibre never even gets to the table.

It wasn't me!

For the record, I've been unceremoniously outshot by 16 year olds. I like to think I'm at least a half-competent shot!

daveob007

fish slapped wrote: »

I think the problem Dave is your wording as in :

"tarining licence should only be for a .22lr only for a 14 year old.
14 is too young for anything bigger than that.
also a 14 year old has no expierience whatsoever. "

this is not offered as an opinion or as a suggestion and is stated as if it were FACT, therefore it also makes assumptions about my 14 year old hence could get my back up.

Perhaps a little more thought on the wording may help.

FS

ok .22 for my 14 year old.

rrpc

One of the reasons that we looked for the training licence in the first place is that by the time a kid is 16, they've already lost a huge amount of training and experience to their international counterparts.

I know the ICPSA have told me that as long as they can only start with 16 year olds they are not within an asses roar of having competitive shooters on the international circuit bar they come up with a one in a million shot like Derek Burnett every so often.

We have the same issue in the NTSA in that by the time we get to train people we're lucky if they're under 18 never mind under 16.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

We have the same issue in the NTSA in that by the time we get to train people we're lucky if they're under 18 never mind under 16.

Yup, and by the time our juniors get to an international match (with maybe two years under their belt at that point), they're going up against kids with anything up to ten or twelve years of experience. And then we're criticised for not winning...

daveob007

Nice pictures.
the pistols look like .22 match pistols or airguns.
the rifle is the real thing though, not sure on the calibre but there is a case catcher on it meaning that it ejects brass and is not an airsoft.
looks very well done and above all SAFE AND CONTROLLED.

rrpc

daveob007 wrote: »

Nice pictures.
the pistols look like .22 match pistols or airguns.
the rifle is the real thing though, not sure on the calibre but there is a case catcher on it meaning that it ejects brass and is not an airsoft.
looks very well done and above all SAFE AND CONTROLLED.

And that's the point Dave. Most of this training will be done in a club environment with all the coaching, safety and other ancillary staff at hand.

To be brutally honest, there are many 14 year olds that I would trust with a firearm a lot more than some of the more 'mature' people it's been my misfortune to observe in the past.

It wasn't me!

daveob007 wrote: »

Nice pictures.
the pistols look like .22 match pistols or airguns.
the rifle is the real thing though, not sure on the calibre but there is a case catcher on it meaning that it ejects brass and is not an airsoft.
looks very well done and above all SAFE AND CONTROLLED.

The rifles are army issue SIG's in 5.56mm. Regular competitions and training with them in Switzerland. It's no coincidence they've such a magnificent shooting tradition. Here you can get an idea of what shooting means to the Swiss.

Vegeta

It wasn't me! wrote: »

The rifles are army issue SIG's in 5.56mm. Regular competitions and training with them in Switzerland. It's no coincidence they've such a magnificent shooting tradition. Here you can get an idea of what shooting means to the Swiss.

IWM that link is broken and looks pretty harmful in terms of spyware. Can you look it over and edit it if need be

It wasn't me!

Vegeta wrote: »

IWM that link is broken and looks pretty harmful in terms of spyware. Can you look it over and edit it if need be

Opens fine for me Vegeta, should open a gallery of thumbnails.

rrpc

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Opens fine for me Vegeta, should open a gallery of thumbnails.

Nope, it hit a drive-by site that dumped a couple of nasty trojans on my PC and I didn't wait to see what happened after that. :mad:

Sparks

Yup, deleted the link from the post IWM.

riflehunter77

I wonder will be there a section on the new application for suppersors or will we still have to apply directly to the super. Would be handy if it was on it the super could tick yea or nea.

It wasn't me!

Odd, sorry about that lads, did nothing of the sort for me.

daveob007

It wasn't me! wrote: »

The rifles are army issue SIG's in 5.56mm. Regular competitions and training with them in Switzerland. It's no coincidence they've such a magnificent shooting tradition. Here you can get an idea of what shooting means to the Swiss.

Shooting tradition/ thats the key word here.
Our misfortune is that we have a very different past in relation to firearms.
This republic was born out of armed conflict and civic war and very recently a terrible 30 or years of more conflict.
Peoples attitude toward guns is very different here after that and it's going to take a very long time for that to change.
Any wonder that senior gardai who have worked most of their lives through that and who have lost colleagues have reservations about civillians owning anything other than smallbore rifles and shotguns.
Its up to ourselves to prove that we are no threat to the public or the state but to show that we are capable of responsible and safe shooting.
Hopefully through success in our competitions we can bring our sport into a positive light and end this negative stuff once and for all.

It wasn't me!

daveob007 wrote: »

Shooting tradition/ thats the key word here.
Our misfortune is that we have a very different past in relation to firearms.
This republic was born out of armed conflict and civic war and very recently a terrible 30 or years of more conflict.
Peoples attitude toward guns is very different here after that and it's going to take a very long time for that to change.
Any wonder that senior gardai who have worked most of their lives through that and who have lost colleagues have reservations about civillians owning anything other than smallbore rifles and shotguns.
Its up to ourselves to prove that we are no threat to the public or the state but to show that we are capable of responsible and safe shooting.
Hopefully through success in our competitions we can bring our sport into a positive light and end this negative stuff once and for all.

The Troubles argument doesn't wash, frankly. How is it they managed to do alright in the north, with civilian firearms not contributing to trouble where the conflict actually took place? And now, as a result, the north has a sporting shooting tradition we don't. Most of our Olympic rifle shooters have come from the north, and I gather that clay shoots are predominated by northern shooters too. no real knowledge of pistol sports, but I'm betting they're kicking a lot of southern ass there too. There's no point trying to justify bad decisions out of respect for the guards and the solid job most of them do.