"Harney refuses to rule out cuts in minimum wage"

Permabear

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ronbyrne2005

donegalfella wrote: »

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Because for a 40 hour week they'd only get same as dole. a ha, theres the answer, cut dole by 50% and abolish min wage, laissez faire.

Taxipete29

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The minimum wage does not acheive a higher standard of living. Its a safeguard to allow people who are employed to be able to live a basic life. Its not like its a huge wage. Its enough for those earning it to get by without looking to the state for handouts.

Because working at €5 an hour for 40hrs a week yields €200. Now I dont know any person(unless they are still living at home) who would be able to live on that and I doubt you do either. Immigrants are free to drive down wages in all sectors of the economy as is anyone else( I may not agree with this but its true) but there has to be a minimum standard.

There are many people in our society who could not afford to live on less than the minimum wage. Reducing it would only serve to push these people towards the welfare option.

Reducing the minimum wage also reduces the spending power of the group most likely to spend all their wages at a time when we need more consumption.

Taxipete29

Most countries have a minimum wage and where they dont they have collective bargaining agreements which set the minimum wage according to the sector of employment. While this might be an option to look at here as opposed to the one size fits all approach, there still has to be a minimum standard.

techdiver

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That's good enough for me. In Ireland, even in our recently-straitened circumstances, nobody should be paid as little as €5 per hour.

That represents the usual sense of entitlement from people in this country. That attitude is what is keeping people on the dole and out of work!

Taxipete29

techdiver wrote: »

That represents the usual sense of entitlement from people in this country. That attitude is what is keeping people on the dole and out of work!

What the enititlement to do a fair days work for a fair days pay???

techdiver

Taxipete29 wrote: »

What the enititlement to do a fair days work for a fair days pay???

The market should always dictate rates of pay not an enforcement that stifles employment. Your notion of "a fair days work for a fair days pay" is what is the cause of much of the unemployment that we are seeing today. is it better to get the dole than work for a better amount of money???

Taxipete29

techdiver wrote: »

The market should always dictate rates of pay not an enforcement that stifles employment. Your notion of "a fair days work for a fair days pay" is what is the cause of much of the unemployment that we are seeing today. is it better to get the dole than work for a better amount of money???

The minimum wage was not the cause of inflated land prices, an unsustainable housing bubble or an economy built on the myth we could all get rich by selling each other property.

Commercial rents and rates, ESb etc are all too high in this country. These are not caused by a minimum wage.

Of course its not better to get the dole than work for a better amount of money and I never suggested it was so i dont know where that came from.

The people in this country who still have good jobs and money to spend are not spending it. Therefore demand is down, so supply reduces accordingly hence suppliers go out of business. Thats basic economics.

For those who wish to reduce it, what would you reduce it too???

djpbarry

Taxipete29 wrote: »

It could be considered if that cost of living was to remain low for a sustained period but that is extremely unlikely in my opinion.

Why would the cost of living suddenly begin to increase again?

Taxipete29 wrote: »

djpbarry wrote: »

I honestly don’t remember, but if you have some stats on the subject, do share.

I dont have any stats on this.

So you’re just assuming that rent and energy costs are far more significant than wages?

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Thats quite a large % of discretionary income. If we go with €200 and then take off €70 for food and €20 for transport( conservative estimates). Thats leaves you with 110. €15 a week is 13.6% of your discretionary income.

This will still leave you with €95 per week (€4,940 per annum) with which to do whatever you please. Now I don’t know about you, but I consider that a pretty significant sum of money.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

I am not saying its not sufficent for a basic standard of living, its probably just about manageable. The point is if you get sick or some unforeseen expense comes up( everyone has these, you can never predict them) you are in trouble, you have no room to manouvre.

You have almost five grand’s worth of room in which to manoeuvre. Besides, if you get sick, you’ve got your health insurance (and you’re still entitled to welfare if needs be).

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Why do you think they dont spend all their money here.

Well, people on minimum wage are still going to go on holidays, they’re going to buy things from abroad online, etc.

ei.sdraob

Taxipete29 mixed up his cause and affect


ireland is a rippof exactly because the minimum wage and welfare is one of the highest in world

if you have any doubts about that then just drive across the border for a shopping trip, where the minimum wage and welfare are less

joseph brand

donegalfella wrote: »

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Spoken like a true Chinese Capitalist. Maybe we can grow our own veg out the back yard, behind our job and maybe even 'stay overnight', to cut down on costs. Sure, we barely even need disposable income wit these ideas.

Hoorray for below minimum wages and a return to the workhouse. Pay the workers pittance and kick them in the teeth while you're at it.

You Sir MUST be an employer.

ei.sdraob

joseph brand wrote: »

Spoken like a true Chinese Capitalist. Maybe we can grow our own veg out the back yard, behind our job and maybe even 'stay overnight', to cut down on costs. Sure, we barely even need disposable income wit these ideas.

Hoorray for below minimum wages and a return to the workhouse. Pay the workers pittance and kick them in the teeth while you're at it.

You Sir MUST be an employer.

Spoken like a true communist

You sir must be a dole head

.

Taxipete29

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Taxipete29 mixed up his cause and affect


ireland is a rippof exactly because the minimum wage and welfare is one of the highest in world

if you have any doubts about that then just drive across the border for a shopping trip, where the minimum wage and welfare are less

Ireland was more expensive than UK or our EU counterparts long before we had a minimum wage. We noticed it more when the euro was introduced. My family were making cross border shopping trips since the eighties. Your argument holds no water

ei.sdraob

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Ireland was more expensive than UK or our EU counterparts long before we had a minimum wage. We noticed it more when the euro was introduced. My family were making cross border shopping trips since the eighties. Your argument holds no water

im still waiting on your solutions to rip off ireland and ever widening deficits and balloning debt mr.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055631648&page=7

Taxipete29

djpbarry wrote: »

Why would the cost of living suddenly begin to increase again?
So you’re just assuming that rent and energy costs are far more significant than wages?
This will still leave you with €95 per week (€4,940 per annum) with which to do whatever you please. Now I don’t know about you, but I consider that a pretty significant sum of money.
You have almost five grand’s worth of room in which to manoeuvre. Besides, if you get sick, you’ve got your health insurance (and you’re still entitled to welfare if needs be).
Well, people on minimum wage are still going to go on holidays, they’re going to buy things from abroad online, etc.

I missed this and never answered these points.

Interest rates will rise as the ECB will probably increase them early next year if the larger economies show signs of recovery. Oil prices will rise come the winter. These will most likely halt our deflation imo.

I wasnt assuming that. You missed my point. Wages as a % of turnover is more important than wages as a % of expenditure. Im sure im right about that.

€95 a week is not a significant sum of money in this country. We can agree to disagree on this becasue we will just go around in circles.

Ok, they spend a 1000-1500 on a holiday(including spends) online purchases lets say 300( for arguments sake). They are still spending about 85% of their wages in ireland.

sceptre

joseph brand wrote: »

You Sir MUST be an employer.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

You sir must be a dole head

You sirs are both looking a bit silly.

We don't give marks for silly. Until the silly forum starts, can we not personalise it, nor look silly?

/mod

joseph brand

sceptre wrote: »

You sirs are both looking a bit silly.

We don't give marks for silly. Until the silly forum starts, can we not personalise it, nor look silly?

/mod

Hahahaahahaha.

Thanks Sceptre, gave me my first laugh of this miserable thursday morning in work.

Dole head? Indeed. :D

"Laugh or cry, the choice is yours". Duncan (Steve Coogan)

ei.sdraob

i could not resist an attempt at silliness :P

djpbarry

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Interest rates will rise as the ECB will probably increase them early next year if the larger economies show signs of recovery. Oil prices will rise come the winter. These will most likely halt our deflation imo.

Well, the ESRI’s most optimistic scenario does not foresee a global recovery before 2011.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

€95 a week is not a significant sum of money in this country.

I guess we’ll have to agree to differ - €95 is more than a week’s rent to me. I think it’s a slightly worrying sign when a difference of almost €100 in an individual’s weekly budget is not considered significant.

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Ok, they spend a 1000-1500 on a holiday(including spends) online purchases lets say 300( for arguments sake). They are still spending about 85% of their wages in ireland.

With respect, this is a little meaningless, as it’s all just guesswork.

Taxipete29

djpbarry wrote: »

Well, the ESRI’s most optimistic scenario does not foresee a global recovery before 2011.
I guess we’ll have to agree to differ - €95 is more than a week’s rent to me. I think it’s a slightly worrying sign when a difference of almost €100 in an individual’s weekly budget is not considered significant.
With respect, this is a little meaningless, as it’s all just guesswork.

Time will tell.

The fact is almost all economists no matter what side they come down on agree that minimum wage earners spend close to all of their wages in the country they earn it. Thats the point I was making.

astrofool

Reducing the minimum wage is to create jobs, which most economists will agree is true also, thereby increasing the amount of money in the country.

Reducing the minimum wage is not an effort to take money away from people, it is an effort to create jobs at a time of mass unemployment.

Taxipete29

astrofool wrote: »

Reducing the minimum wage is to create jobs, which most economists will agree is true also, thereby increasing the amount of money in the country.

Reducing the minimum wage is not an effort to take money away from people, it is an effort to create jobs at a time of mass unemployment.

I asked this in the other thread, lets see if I get an answer here. If you reduce the minimum wage by 10%, what amount of jobs are going to be created?? Who is going to employ these people in a time of shrinking consumer demand??

akaredtop

Maybe the fat pig should cut her food/drink intake to the minimum.(sorry pigs)

astrofool

Taxipete29 wrote: »

I asked this in the other thread, lets see if I get an answer here. If you reduce the minimum wage by 10%, what amount of jobs are going to be created?? Who is going to employ these people in a time of shrinking consumer demand??

If you're looking for an exact figure, then no one can tell you, if min wage dropped, you would need to have a parallel universe to see what the difference would be in job creation.

One thing that could not be denied, would be that more jobs would be created if it was reduced, just as less jobs would be created if it was increased.

It would also show that Ireland was reducing costs internationally, and make companies more willing to move here. Sentiment would be on our side, as we would be seen to be doing something about our position (untenable), and arrogance (paying ourselves the second highest min wage in the EU).

At an absolute guess, I would say that you would probably see a difference of 5-10% more jobs created from a 10% drop in min wage, possibly a little more. We would also see the cost of goods go down, creating more wealth overall (and making things more affordable for the "vulnerable").

I don't think you'll like that answer, but it's the only one there is.

Taxipete29

astrofool wrote: »

If you're looking for an exact figure, then no one can tell you, if min wage dropped, you would need to have a parallel universe to see what the difference would be in job creation.

One thing that could not be denied, would be that more jobs would be created if it was reduced, just as less jobs would be created if it was increased.

It would also show that Ireland was reducing costs internationally, and make companies more willing to move here. Sentiment would be on our side, as we would be seen to be doing something about our position (untenable), and arrogance (paying ourselves the second highest min wage in the EU).

At an absolute guess, I would say that you would probably see a difference of 5-10% more jobs created from a 10% drop in min wage, possibly a little more. We would also see the cost of goods go down, creating more wealth overall (and making things more affordable for the "vulnerable").

I don't think you'll like that answer, but it's the only one there is.

Ok you claim that a 10% reduction would result in more employment and lower prices, but if companies use the reduction in mimimum wage to employ more people they are still spending the same amount of money. How does this reduce prices??

What about the arrogance of our Government who are amoung the highest paid in Europe for a nation of about 4 million people??

What about retail managers who earn 100k a year. Arrogance??
What about doctors, lawyers, dentists,??
What about bankers??

All these groups are overpaid, what about reducing their salaries significantly
That would result in far more scope for job creation??

rugbyman

Taxi man pete,

It seems plain to me that the minimum wage is too high. This has nothing to do with how one manages on it. My son has left school and ,afaik, is not eligible for welfare unless he leaves home.
He would be glad of a job at 250 euro per week,but it is illegal for an emplpoyer to give him a job at that rate.

the minimum wage has caused a lot of bunching together at that level of salaries. the most menial of jobs must be paid 350 euro per week while lots of skilled people earn little more.

re your comments on managers etc. whatever a private company chooses to pay its manager is its own affair. they can work out if he/she is worth it

lots of lawyers are unemployed, lots of self employed lawyers have little income at the moment.

regards ,Rugbyman

BornToKill

rugbyman wrote: »

My son has left school and ,afaik, is not eligible for welfare unless he leaves home.
He would be glad of a job at 250 euro per week,but it is illegal for an emplpoyer to give him a job at that rate.

The sub-minimum rate is €6:06 ph if your son is under 18. If he is over 18 and taking first employment the rate is €6:92 ph. An employer would get a 36 hour week even at the higher rate for €250 and there would be no illegality.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/pay-and-employment/pay_inc_min_wage

I think you are very right about the 'bunching' though.

astrofool

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Ok you claim that a 10% reduction would result in more employment and lower prices, but if companies use the reduction in mimimum wage to employ more people they are still spending the same amount of money. How does this reduce prices??

What about the arrogance of our Government who are amoung the highest paid in Europe for a nation of about 4 million people??

What about retail managers who earn 100k a year. Arrogance??
What about doctors, lawyers, dentists,??
What about bankers??

All these groups are overpaid, what about reducing their salaries significantly
That would result in far more scope for job creation??

You want me to explain to you how having say, 8 people working for a company for the same salary as, say 6, can lead to lower prices?

What do people working for a company do? They don't just sit around taking wage, they are productive (are you in the public service?).

Take a simple example of manufacturing.

6 people create 6 cars in one day.
8 people create 8 cars in one day.

Equipment being used is the same (plant machinery), raw material cost is say 50% of the total price of a car.

This allows the company to produce 2 more cars on any given day at an increased cost of 1 more car's price raw material.

This allows the company to sell those 8 cars at a reduced price than if they had produced 6 cars. The same formula can be applied everywhere.

That answer enough?

Taxipete29

astrofool wrote: »

You want me to explain to you how having say, 8 people working for a company for the same salary as, say 6, can lead to lower prices?

What do people working for a company do? They don't just sit around taking wage, they are productive (are you in the public service?).

Take a simple example of manufacturing.

6 people create 6 cars in one day.
8 people create 8 cars in one day.

Equipment being used is the same (plant machinery), raw material cost is say 50% of the total price of a car.

This allows the company to produce 2 more cars on any given day at an increased cost of 1 more car's price raw material.

This allows the company to sell those 8 cars at a reduced price than if they had produced 6 cars. The same formula can be applied everywhere.

That answer enough?

Thats reasonable and applies quite well to manufacturing. The problem is we are not creating those kind of jobs here anymore. Even with a reduction in minimum wage we still cant compete on those levels.

This formula doesnt apply to the service industry. If people arent buying services it doesnt matter how many staff you have. Most people who are still working in reasonably paid jobs have alot more spending power than a year ago.They arent spending though.Consumer sentiment is way down and will remain down until people are sure this crisis has ended and their job is safe.
How will lowering the minimum wage gte these people buying when they are not buying at the current bargain prices on offer??

astrofool

It applies to every industry:

Restaurant:
More waiters/cooks, able to serve more customers food in the same amount of time

Finance:
More employees able to handle customers, customers dealt with quicker, more time for other customers, or can improve service to current customers.

Shop:
More staff on the floor who can stock, help customers, man the till and clean the shop = more sales for the shop.

It applies across every business that employs more than a single person.

Jobs drive the economy, if we increase the number of employed, we will be on our way to economic recovery (at least if they're in the private sector).