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"Harney refuses to rule out cuts in minimum wage"

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12357…12

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    #122
    lmtduffy
    Registered Users Posts: 512 ✭✭✭lmtduffy


    techdiver wrote: »
    Like it or not profit making is what creates employment. It's a very naive view to just peddle the same line of evil business owners exploiting employees.

    yes I agree but its important to ensure the profit created is shared equitably between the employees and the employers and that it is for the benefit of society.


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    #123
    Shan75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 484 ✭✭Shan75


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    To be fair (for some people here, a novel idea) it should be acknowledged that there are plenty of honest high earners as well. Some of them don't even look for loopholes to enable them to avoid tax.

    Agreed and that is why I carefully added the word "most"


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    #124
    lmtduffy
    Registered Users Posts: 512 ✭✭✭lmtduffy


    astrofool wrote: »
    Reducing minimum wage will be in the hope that more jobs can be created, that we might be competitive in wage terms with the rest of Europe. The people working these jobs would likely not have a job otherwise, that would be raising, rather than lowering, their quality of life. Especially if social welfare takes a similar or greater cut.

    this wont create more jobs, the reason people are being let go is because no one is buying anything and having 2 people instead of 1 in an empty shop isnt going to change that all it will result in is an employer hiring one and extending his profit margins.

    It will just end with the economy eventually getting better and employees being payed less and employers having saved money in the past and making more money in the upturn.

    If you want to get people jobs give the companies that are there more capital and make more capital available to new companies.


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    #125
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    Shan75 wrote: »
    Not true.All earners are now paying the income Levy.I know up to the introduction of the Levy there were people outside the Tax Net.However they were still contributing to the economy by working and not drawing benefits.I realise it is different now of course as it is almost impossible to get a job and the majority of the people on the dole do not want to be on it.

    As well people who do not pay income tax still pay tax.


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    #126
    Shan75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 484 ✭✭Shan75


    sovtek wrote: »
    I'm more concerned about the top because they are the ones who run things (into the ground) and rip me off. I'm not so concerned by the few dole cheats who cost me very little in comparison.


    I'm concerned about everybody involved in fraud, tax evasion etc.Agree though that the people who have caused the most damage are the ones at the top.


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    #127
    techdiver
    Registered Users Posts: 3,204 ✭✭✭techdiver


    Shan75 wrote: »
    I'm concerned about everybody involved in fraud, tax evasion etc.Agree though that the people who have caused the most damage are the ones at the top.

    There was of course recklessness at the top, but every person who participated in the property bubble is in some part responsible in my opinion.

    We can't absolve ourselves of a share in the responsibility, perhaps not to the extent of the bankers/estate agents/brokers/government who threw fuel on the flames of the property bubble, but none the less if no one bought into this craziness nothing would have come of it.


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    #128
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,326 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Of course it's meaningless. It's taken in complete isolation and completely disregards other inflations over the 10 year period.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I know exactly what your were responding to. I wrote it. But nobody has mentioned the Social Welfare being a "substitute" for anything, except you.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    You are misrepresenting the state of affairs. The money needed to fund the Social Welfare outgoings will come mainly from the sources it has always come from. Taxes.

    Borrowing is necessary for many things this year, but you're making it look like we're borrowing millions just for the dole. That's wrong.


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    #129
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Has a drop in minimum wage ever happened? It would be a slow effect and could cause some problems. Lets say you have a job earing the current min. €8.65. The minimum wage gets reduced to €7.65. Surely your employer in full knowledge that you are costing him an extra 40 quid a week with a queue of people looking for work could try to pressure you unfairly to take a pay cut or worse to get you out of the job.


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    #130
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,326 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    techdiver wrote: »
    There was of course recklessness at the top, but every person who participated in the property bubble is in some part responsible in my opinion.

    We can't absolve ourselves of a share in the responsibility, perhaps not to the extent of the bankers/estate agents/brokers/government who threw fuel on the flames of the property bubble, but none the less if no one bought into this craziness nothing would have come of it.

    That's makes it sound like there was choice for the people at the bottom. There wasn't.

    People bought houses, for the same reasons people have always bought houses. To put down stable roots. Renting in this Country is simply not an option as, as a tennant you have no rights in Ireland and you never know where you will be living from one year to the next.

    The people at the bottom had no option but to try and buy the house they could afford. If Ireland had a sensible and fair renting market, things would be very different.


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    #131
    techdiver
    Registered Users Posts: 3,204 ✭✭✭techdiver


    Tony EH wrote: »
    That's makes it sound like there was choice for the people at the bottom. There wasn't.

    People bought houses, for the same reasons people have always bought houses. To put down stable roots. Renting in this Country is simply not an option as, as a tennant you have no rights in Ireland and you never know where you will be living from one year to the next.

    The people at the bottom had no option but to try and buy the house they could afford. If Ireland had a sensible and fair renting market, things would be very different.

    It still comes down to choice. I don't buy (pardon the pun), the excuse that renting was not an option in Ireland. Many people continued to rent successfully during the "boom times" and had no issues.


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    #132
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,701 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    Has a drop in minimum wage ever happened? It would be a slow effect and could cause some problems. Lets say you have a job earing the current min. €8.65. The minimum wage gets reduced to €7.65. Surely your employer in full knowledge that you are costing him an extra 40 quid a week with a queue of people looking for work could try to pressure you unfairly to take a pay cut or worse to get you out of the job.

    That flies in the face of people saying that dropping the wage will have no effect.

    I'd hope to see everyone currently on minimum wage stay on the same wage, with only new entrants on the new minimum. It does however give more lattitude to struggling businesses to reduce costs by introducing a pay cut.

    Ultimately, we should see more jobs created, and costs of goods going down.


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    #133
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    techdiver wrote: »
    It still comes down to choice. I don't buy (pardon the pun), the excuse that renting was not an option in Ireland. Many people continued to rent successfully during the "boom times" and had no issues.

    I'm not backing the notion that renting wasn't an option but Tony has a point about renting. Until the PRTB was setup you had basically no rights and the standards in Ireland are very poor.
    Also everyone from politicians to the Central Bank were pretty much saying you need to get on the property ladder. You can't ignore that there was a lot of pressure in this society to buy a home and that many people were taken advantage of. This is basically blaming the victim.
    I remember paying off my second loan in 2004. The day I did the girl at the counter tried to get me to take out €13000 even though I told her I was leaving the country. That's why the country is in a mess. Not because of welfare, the public sector, "high" wages or a minimum wage. That is another fact.


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    #134
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    astrofool wrote: »
    That flies in the face of people saying that dropping the wage will have no effect.

    I'd hope to see everyone currently on minimum wage stay on the same wage, with only new entrants on the new minimum. It does however give more lattitude to struggling businesses to reduce costs by introducing a pay cut.

    Ultimately, we should see more jobs created, and costs of goods going down.

    Would you also legislate the compulsary lowering of costs by businesses if the minimum wage was staged the way you proposed?


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    #135
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,326 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    techdiver wrote: »
    It still comes down to choice. I don't buy (pardon the pun), the excuse that renting was not an option in Ireland. Many people continued to rent successfully during the "boom times" and had no issues.

    Sorry, but that's just rubbish. Ireland's renting market has always been a brutal business, with no regard whatsoever for the tennant. Rents can simply be hiked up to whatever the landlord wishes, contracts are changed each year with no regard to tennant welfare, there's no controls or regulations about the quality of rented property, renters cannot start families or put children in local schools as they don't know where they might be forced to live in a years time etc...

    The renting market was and still is not an option to owning a home.


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    #136
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Renting in this Country is simply not an option as, as a tennant you have no rights in Ireland…
    Really? So what are all these?
    • You are entitled to quiet and exclusive enjoyment of your home
    • You are entitled to certain minimum standards of accommodation
    • You are entitled to a rent book
    • You have the right to contact the landlord or their agent at any reasonable times. You are also entitled to the appropriate contact information you need to do so (telephone numbers, email addresses, postal addresses, etc.)
    • Your landlord is only allowed to enter your home with your permission. If the landlord needs to carry out repairs or inspect the premises, it should be by prior arrangement, except in an emergency
    • You are entitled to reimbursement for any repairs that you carry out that are the landlords’ responsibility
    • You are entitled to have friends to stay overnight or for short periods, unless specifically forbidden in your tenancy agreement. You must tell your landlord about an extra person moving in
    • You are entitled to a certain amount of notice of the termination of your tenancy
    • You are entitled to refer any disputes to the Private Residential Tenancies Board (PRTB) without being penalised for doing so
    • You have the right to a copy of any register entry held by the PRTB dealing with your tenancy
    • From 1 January 2009, all homes for rent must have a Building Energy Rating (BER). A BER will inform you how energy efficient the home is. It will help you make an informed choice when comparing properties to rent.
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/housing/renting-a-home/tenants_rights_and_obligations


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    #137
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    For the sort of data analysed in this work, they probably would (I have some background in economics, admittedly rusty, and found nothing to dispute). It is possible that an economist might have considered some other outcomes to measure, but the writers were limited to dealing with those outcomes for which comparable data was available.
    By the way, I'm curious about the subtitle of the book you recommended to turgon: "Why More Equal Societies Almost Always Do Better." Why the "almost always"? In what cases do more equal societies not do better?

    It's more a matter of inequality not being a sufficient explanation for all differences in societies. The authors plot various outcomes against income inequality, and derive the regression line. Not all points cluster close to the line. My impression is that there are more outlying points among unequal societies, but I didn't count. These points need some further explanation. The obvious candidate in most cases is cultural differences.


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    #138
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Shan75 wrote: »
    Not true.All earners are now paying the income Levy.
    I actually meant to put that statement in the past tense, but anyway, the point is that it is rather disingenuous to suggest that those on low incomes are “footing the bill” to any great extent – they’re still paying virtually no tax compared to higher earners.


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    #139
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,701 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    sovtek wrote: »
    Would you also legislate the compulsary lowering of costs by businesses if the minimum wage was staged the way you proposed?

    nope, the government has no control over that, competition would lower costs in due time.

    We have already reduced costs by more than the proposed cuts anyway (~5%).


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    #140
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,326 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Really? So what are all these?
    • You are entitled to quiet and exclusive enjoyment of your home
    • You are entitled to certain minimum standards of accommodation
    • You are entitled to a rent book
    • You have the right to contact the landlord or their agent at any reasonable times. You are also entitled to the appropriate contact information you need to do so (telephone numbers, email addresses, postal addresses, etc.)
    • Your landlord is only allowed to enter your home with your permission. If the landlord needs to carry out repairs or inspect the premises, it should be by prior arrangement, except in an emergency
    • You are entitled to reimbursement for any repairs that you carry out that are the landlords’ responsibility
    • You are entitled to have friends to stay overnight or for short periods, unless specifically forbidden in your tenancy agreement. You must tell your landlord about an extra person moving in
    • You are entitled to a certain amount of notice of the termination of your tenancy
    • You are entitled to refer any disputes to the Private Residential Tenancies Board (PRTB) without being penalised for doing so
    • You have the right to a copy of any register entry held by the PRTB dealing with your tenancy
    • From 1 January 2009, all homes for rent must have a Building Energy Rating (BER). A BER will inform you how energy efficient the home is. It will help you make an informed choice when comparing properties to rent.


    Mostly crap.

    I'm talking about rights that really affect the tennant, like long term tennancy, and not having your rent jump up by £300 like it did one year for me.

    Real tennant rights. Not fluff.


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    #141
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Really? So what are all these?
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/housing/renting-a-home/tenants_rights_and_obligations

    Thats only come in the last few years though. As well Tony is right about landlords being able to basically raise your rent anytime. The minimum standards are never spelled out that I've seen so are basically meaningless. I had a friend that was told by the PRTB that the landlord didn't have to provide heating other than a space heater. The rent review is a license to rip people off because they never did release figures on the "market rate".


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    #142
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    astrofool wrote: »
    nope, the government has no control over that, competition would lower costs in due time.

    We have already reduced costs by more than the proposed cuts anyway (~5%).

    I didn't ask if the government could control it (they can). I asked if you would support it. If not why not? If they can control the minimum wage then there is nothing to keep them from legislating cost cuts.
    If you believe that competition would lower costs then it should have kept costs down even over the boom.


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    #143
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,030 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I actually meant to put that statement in the past tense, but anyway, the point is that it is rather disingenuous to suggest that those on low incomes are “footing the bill” to any great extent – they’re still paying virtually no tax compared to higher earners.

    They are still paying VAT (which accounts for slightly more revenue than income tax)


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    #144
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Ireland's renting market has always been a brutal business, with no regard whatsoever for the tennant. Rents can simply be hiked up to whatever the landlord wishes...
    Surely what the landlord can charge is limited by what the tenant is prepared to pay?
    Tony EH wrote: »
    ...renters cannot start families…
    Eh, what? Families don’t rent? Since when?


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    #145
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Tony EH wrote: »
    I'm talking about rights that really affect the tennant, like long term tennancy, and not having your rent jump up by £300 like it did one year for me.
    I presume you told your landlord to shove it?
    sovtek wrote: »
    I had a friend that was told by the PRTB that the landlord didn't have to provide heating other than a space heater.
    What the hell was your friend doing renting a place with no heating?


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    #146
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    kickoutthejams wrote: »
    They are still paying VAT...
    How much?


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    #147
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #148
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,326 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Surely what the landlord can charge is limited by what the tenant is prepared to pay?

    It still means the tennant has to go through the bother of moving etc. Depending on the market, few landlords will be willing to alter their price and this can change year in, year out.
    djpbarry wrote: »
    Eh, what? Families don’t rent? Since when?

    It's very difficult and certainly not ideal. I've known a couple of families who have had terrible trouble as they were forced into the renting sector. When you aren't sure where you're going to be living year in, year out, it's hardly ideal. Is it?


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    #149
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Surely what the landlord can charge is limited by what the tenant is prepared to pay?

    This isnt' like deciding which DVD player you want. There is such a thing as rent control in most capital cities in the first world.


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    #150
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,030 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    djpbarry wrote: »
    How much?

    Dunno what percentage they pay.

    this shows the total figures

    However, bottom earners are more likely to be spending (as you still require the same necessities as high earners, you just have less once they are sorted) it would appear that they would be making contributions (above nearly nothing compared to high earners as you originally claimed)


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    #151
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    It wouldn't surprise me if it was truly double digit. I know I used to never be broke at the end of the month when I first moved here even though i made about €10000 less then than I do now.
    I'm not that familiar with it but I've read a little about what factors are used to rate inflation. It looks to me like it is always factored down.
    State revenues are expected to be in the region of €32 billion in 2009. Social welfare spending is expected to be €21 billion. You think it's feasible to spend two-thirds of tax revenue on social welfare?

    Is it feasible to spend €90 billion to bail out people...some of which should probably be in jail? If not then why do you think its not necessary to stop this first before worrying about social welfare( besides bringing "order into the public finances").

    Sorry, but that's complete nonsense. Tenants in Ireland are well protected legally by the Landlord and Tenants Acts and the Residential Tenancies Act. Under the latter, a tenant can avail of security of tenure in four-year cycles, so it's a complete misrepresentation to say that "you never know where you will be living from one year to the next."

    Security in tenure is not the same as security in rental rates. I've seen some seriously unjustified jumps in rent on the whim of landlords. Rent reviews were meaningless because they would never do a study of market rates give a standards on them.
    Curiously, I know many people—from all over the social spectrum—who rent their homes. Some have done so for years. I'm not seeing the problems whereof you speak. It is certainly nonsense that people "had no option but to buy," because renting has always been a viable option, in Ireland as elsewhere.

    I've rented the entire time I've lived in Ireland. I've met some decent landlords. Unfortunately I could count them on one hand after putting it through a wood chipper.
    The rest were seriously greedy scum that expected you to be their personal ATM whilst giving you the lowest standard of living possible.


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