"Harney refuses to rule out cuts in minimum wage"

Tony EH

donegalfella wrote: »

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You've just exposed the bitterness in your "argument" again.

Which unemployed people are enjoying "frappuccinos, golfing trips, and nights on the town?"

All on 200 Euro a week.

Sure, the dole is great. I don't know why people are working at all.

Sand

I think you should go back and read my post.
Studying his masters.

Fair enough, but I think you should go back and read mine...

Theres two types of people working in the likes of KFC minimum wage jobs - people who cannot get anything better because they are uneducated, unmotivated or inexperienced - and those who are simply working a job whilst they get educated or look for something better.

None of you would work minimum wage, but would like a reduction.
Nothing more than hypocrisy, that's all I have to say about it.

I am educated, experienced and motivated with a proven ability to get a job done. Why the hell would I want to work for less money than I can make?

And I have worked for *less* than the current minimum wage whilst studying myself.

I wouldnt reduce the minimum wage, Id remove it. The concept is pointless - either its so high it inhibits employment, or its so low thats it is merely symbolic. People will apply their own minimum wage even in the absence of an official one.

Permabear

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Tony EH

Sand wrote: »

I wouldnt reduce the minimum wage, Id remove it. The concept is pointless

The employers would simply offer mickey mouse wages making the job pointless.

Permabear

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Tony EH

donegalfella wrote: »

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I'm sure there was much consternation from workers with low paid jobs and their difficulties in making ends meet, that's why the minmum wage was introduced in the first place.

But you probably think they were on golfing trips with their unemployed buddies.

Taxipete29

On the rises over the years in social welfare. Did it never occur to people that they rose so much becasue they were way behind what was acceptable for people to live on in the first place.

The real problem is the long term unemployed people who despite the boom refused to get off their asses and get a job. These people need to be tackled first.

It would be wrong to cut welfare now for newly unemployed people, many of whom have contributed for alot of years and now deserve help when they most need it.

nayorleck114

€346 (40 hours on Min wage) is not very much to live on. Considering that the dole is €204.30. If you are only on Min you are only making 141.7 more than those on the dole. Its not much of an incentive. Cutting this would be senseless. will drive more people on the dole where they are secure of their payments.

RiverWilde

Ah but cutting welfare is a typical FF response ... protect the wealthy ... screw over those who NEED state aid.

To add insult to injury this shower of eejits want to make it even harder to get into education and training.

I don't see any of the establishment giving up their perks and excessive salaries anytime soon. Why in blazes are our lot of politicians paid as much as they are? They don't deserve such remuneration.
Our Taoiseach is paid more than Gordon Brown?! Why?

FF and the Greens are going to stay in power as long as they can so that they can line their pockets and the pockets of their friends and when the next govt. takes over they'll have a much bigger job to fix the country as a result.

Riv

turgon

RiverWilde wrote: »

Ah but cutting welfare is a typical FF response ... protect the wealthy ... screw over those who NEED state aid

Because we all know Fianna Fail were very conservative in raising Social Welfare...


/sarcasm

Permabear

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RiverWilde

turgon wrote: »

Because we all know Fianna Fail were very conservative in raising Social Welfare...


/sarcasm

Yeah, the cost of living skyrocketed during our wonderful bubble years and the govt. harvested up the cash they so happily 'gave away.'
There is a very good reason why people go north for their shopping. It has nothing to do with welfare rates and everything to do with merchant greed. I suppose some on this thread would prefer we went back to Victorian times and re-open the workhouses. That way we could punish people for being poor. Let them eat cake ... I hope to god that isn't the way this country has turned out after a meagre decade or two of bubble economics.

Riv

irish_bob

thier was a lady on liveline today who earned less than 320 a week yet wasnt entitled to a medical card , sufice to say she would be far better off on the dole , on a related topic , i think its disgusting that a 72 year old retired grada inspector on a 700 quid a week pension can visit his doctor whenever he likes on the states good humour yet this lady on liveline has to cough up , the difference being the lady is not OFFICIALY VULNERABLE unlike our senior citizen ex cop

the system is seriously fcuked up

turgon

RiverWilde wrote: »

Yeah, the cost of living skyrocketed during our wonderful bubble years

If you had been reading the thread you would have seen the statistics that show that social welfare increased faster than the cost of living. So your argument just died.

Taxipete29

donegalfella wrote: »

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Its between 50 and 64 depending on age. About a 100 if your married.

RiverWilde

turgon wrote: »

If you had been reading the thread you would have seen the statistics that show that social welfare increased faster than the cost of living. So your argument just died.

Did it really? I don't think so. Social welfare rates had to rise and statistically it may appear that they rose by a large margin. However, when you consider the base they were rising from, the rate increases were justified.

I work, I feed my family, I have a fairly decent job, well above minimum wage and I find it extremely difficult to deal with the cost of living in this country. Yet you think it's perfectly okay to put the boot in and screw over people who actually need the few quid from the state. Yeah.

Riv

the_syco

Tony EH wrote: »

You're trying to make it sound like living on 200 Euro a week is a breeze.

It's not meant to be a breeze.

Martyr wrote: »

None of you would work minimum wage, but would like a reduction.
Nothing more than hypocrisy, that's all I have to say about it.

I have worked minimum wage, for about a year, full time. Due to having a cert in IT, I was able to leave it, and get a better paying job.

Tony EH wrote: »

Yes, because it's an utterly miserly position.

LOL You say €200 is not enough, but you won't say what you think is enough!

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

The asians and foreigners you see working in minimum wage jobs do them because they cant claim much or any social welfare, in fact it could be argued wages for these jobs would be higher if there wasnt so much migrant labour competing to do it.

They work minimum wage jobs, as most often than not, their qualification is not recognized in this country, and thus do any job.

RiverWilde wrote: »

There is a very good reason why people go north for their shopping. It has nothing to do with welfare rates and everything to do with merchant greed.

The current exchange rate makes their minimum wage less than us. If you look at when the exchange rate meant that their minimum wage was equal to us, you wouldn't see many people going up north. But when the pound weakens to the point where it's a lot less than ours, so too does everything else seem cheaper.

In December 2007, I think a euro equaled GBP£0.695
Now, a euro equals GBP£0.863

Which means that a euro now goes at a lot better than it did in December 2007. This in turn means that the minimum wage that the Brits got in December 2007, although it may be the same number now, meant that they got more back then.

turgon

RiverWilde wrote: »

Did it really? I don't think so.

Yes, it did. Link to a few posts back.

turgon

Also foreigners work for so little because in my experience they cut back on spending in Aldi and by not going out. So far from "stealing our jobs" they are just being more competitive.

I dont see why Irish people cant seem to adopt their means of living, instead demand that the government either pay them more welfare or force employers to pay them more.

gerry28

Picture two friends pat and john sharing a flat, - Rent is 70 each per week.

Pat is on the dole getting €204 per week and gets rent allowance to cover his rent

John works on min wage of €332 (after levy) and pays 70 out of this for rent leaving him with €262

So John is out working 39hrs a week to be €50 or €60 better off than pat.

Pat is also entitled to a medical card, fuel allowance etc.

John might even have to pay a bus to get to work.

Someone mentioned earlier that the dole should be maintained at current levels for newly unemployed but the long termers should have their payments reduced year on year - great idea.

Martyr

the_syco wrote:

I have worked minimum wage, for about a year, full time. Due to having a cert in IT, I was able to leave it, and get a better paying job.

That's all good..

Now however, put yourself in the shoes of an IT student who might be forced to work for €5 or less an hour part time while his college and exams fees are being increased this year.

If at that time people like donegalfella and turgon demanded your minimum wage be reduced, so they could buy cheaper kebabs or taco chips on their night out at the pub.

What would be your response?
Would you be happy? I can't think why.

turgon wrote:

Also foreigners work for so little because in my experience they cut back on spending in Aldi and by not going out. So far from "stealing our jobs" they are just being more competitive.

Stereotypical BS.

I know polish and slovakians and they shop in places like aldi because they're not paid well, if that's what you call being "competitive" why don't you try it out some time?

AS in, work in the same job, get paid the same money, live in the same accommodation.

Some of you live in this fantasy where everyone in ireland is living off the fat of the land.

There are many people living just above the poverty line.

Maybe we should bring back workhouses? make people work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week and pay them with potatoes.

donegalfella can be in charge

Taxipete29

turgon wrote: »

Also foreigners work for so little because in my experience they cut back on spending in Aldi and by not going out. So far from "stealing our jobs" they are just being more competitive.

I dont see why Irish people cant seem to adopt their means of living, instead demand that the government either pay them more welfare or force employers to pay them more.

You obviously havent been to Lidl or Aldi lately. They are pretty busy and its not all foreigners. Irish people are adapting, some quicker than others granted but it is happening.

Shan75

Tony EH wrote: »

It doesn't matter what I think it should be.

It doesn't matter what any of us think in the overall scheme of things as we do not have an influence in the decision making process.However in the context of this thread it does matter what you think so we can get an idea of exactly what your position is and understanding what your views are on how we will manage to pay the increasing social welfare bill.

Shan75

Taxipete29 wrote: »

You obviously havent been to Lidl or Aldi lately. They are pretty busy and its not all foreigners. Irish people are adapting, some quicker than others granted but it is happening.

Indeed.People are becoming more aware of the need to shop around.It is having an affect on the more established stores too as there have been reductions in prices on most, if not all, items in Dunnes and Tesco.Now if only these stores could cut the wages of checkout operators and other low level staff we would see even further reductions.Aldi and Lidl are still way cheaper in other countries partly because the minimum wage is lower.

Permabear

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Sand

That's all good..

Now however, put yourself in the shoes of an IT student who might be forced to work for €5 or less an hour part time while his college and exams fees are being increased this year.

If at that time people like donegalfella and turgon demanded your minimum wage be reduced, so they could buy cheaper kebabs or taco chips on their night out at the pub.

What would be your response?
Would you be happy? I can't think why.

I am bawling my eyes out and the plight of this mythical student who is "forced" to work at 5 euro an hour less. No wait...I actually worked for less than 5 euro an hour. I should go on Oprah or something. Theres probably a gap in the "We were so poor" market since Frank McCourt passed on.

Let me present an alternative gut wrenching tale of misery and forced exclusion. Lets say youre a hard working individual. You contact a company and offer to work for 5 euro an hour. They say, they would love to hire you but they cant do so at 5 euro an hour. A cartel of wokers, backed by powerful political interests, have imposed legal restrictions upon them. They can only pay you 8.65 euro an hour, and they just cannot afford to pay you that much given their current wage bill and the expected marginal profit from your own labour.

Thanks to this heartless cartel of labour barons, you are forced onto the scrapheap of unemployment...banished outside the golden world of minimum wages, guaranteed pensions and jobs for life, reserved for the chosen few.

What would be your response?
Would you be happy? I can't think why.

Some of you live in this fantasy where everyone in ireland is living off the fat of the land.

Apparently you live there. Taxpayers are currently struggling under reduced wages, very dim employment prospects, jacked up taxes and high debts. The pool of taxpayers is falling all the time, whilst government expenditure ( which the taxpayers cover, by the way, its not free money) goes up and up and up. Theres only so much the tax payer can take.

How do we help?

Well, more taxpayers is a good thing and less unemployed also helps.

How do we get more taxpayers and less people on the dole? Well we remove minimum wage which prevents employment at levels below a certain wage. And we reduce dole payments, which reduces the incentive to ignore low paid jobs...

As many have noted the minimum wage is not that much above the dole...thats because the dole is massively overgenerous. Fianna Fails priorities were all wrong - they massively increased dole benefit at a time of high employment: the splurged the cash windfall on buying the votes of the unemployed, pensioners and so on. Now when we actually *need* a cash reserve to cover us in the bad times...its all gone, and we have massive expenditure on social welfare, that we cannot sustain.

We are borrowing 400 million euro a week. Now you can moan about the "vulnerable" and give out that anyone who wants to resolve the massive gap between the state revenue and the state expenditure as a heartless monster who hates christmas, or you can join the adults and recognise that if dont have the money, then we cant spend the money.

Social welfare was massively inflated in recent years, to buy votes. Its going to have to be cut because we cannot afford it now. We could never afford it in reality.

Minimum wages will need to be cut (removed would be best, but politically impossible) because it inhibits employment and we need every bloody job we can lay our hands on right now.

Every bit of inflated, vote buying, quango forming government expenditure needs to be cut back to the bone. Because, in case you hadnt noticed we are in the depths of the worst recession pretty much in recorded history and we do not have the money to sustain Fianna Fails vote buying machine anymore.

End of.

Shan75

donegalfella wrote: »

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Spot on donegalfella.I well remember the days before the minimum wage.I got my first proper job in 1994 and was earning plenty in a low level job to ensure I could afford to socialise as much as I wanted and spend money on clothes and everything else I wanted while still having a bit to put into a savings account every week.I thought the introduction of the minimum wage was crazy in 2000 and nothing has changed my mind.There is no way it was introduced to help people in lower paid jobs as the Government don't really care all that much.It was introduced to create the illusion of being relatively well off for unskilled workers and allowed people further up the food chain to also demand higher wages.A Government ploy to create apathy and ignorance in the electorate to allow them to get on with the real business of ripping us off and helping out some of their wealthy pals with nobody to play watchdog.It, along with the ridiculous raises in social welfare helped to create the bubble.In times of boom with more than enough jobs to go around it makes no sense to raise social welfare.It never ceases to amaze me how much money was squandered on benefits that people didn't or shouldn't need.

Mario007

Martyr wrote: »

That's all good..

Now however, put yourself in the shoes of an IT student who might be forced to work for €5 or less an hour part time while his college and exams fees are being increased this year.

If at that time people like donegalfella and turgon demanded your minimum wage be reduced, so they could buy cheaper kebabs or taco chips on their night out at the pub.

What would be your response?
Would you be happy? I can't think why.



Stereotypical BS.

I know polish and slovakians and they shop in places like aldi because they're not paid well, if that's what you call being "competitive" why don't you try it out some time?

AS in, work in the same job, get paid the same money, live in the same accommodation.

Some of you live in this fantasy where everyone in ireland is living off the fat of the land.

There are many people living just above the poverty line.

Maybe we should bring back workhouses? make people work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week and pay them with potatoes.

donegalfella can be in charge

ok first off i want to say i'm a slovakian kid going to college this year so pretty much all of your thread relates to me:D
College fees- they are not being increased, it seems they are being deferred until you can pay them. I think this is a fair system, as now i can demand good services since i'll be paying for them. Also kids will start thinking more of what college actually costs etc as opposed to now.
With regards to slovakians and polish people taking up jobs with low pay. firstly they can legally only take jobs with minimum wage, just like any irish person. and just like any irish person they can work illegally for less. my dad started working in ireland with the minimum wage at the time of €7. his wages went up €1 each year for the first three years and then additional €1 for the duration of the last two years. with his wages our family(family of four, two kids going to school) could afford to buy 2 cars, completely refurnish our house, get an LCD TV, a Wii console, PS2 etc. and why? because we know from back home that going to shop in places like lidl, aldi and tesco is cheap and yet it provides the same quality of food and other products. with that we managed to save up money to buy things like those LCD TVs etc.
right now my dad is at jobseekers benefit and we're still coping pretty well. true its like the times when he was getting €11 an hour but thanks to shopping around and knowing what we can and cant afford we can now put together not only money for myself to go to college but also for my dad so he can requalify and as a family we support all those cuts in minimum wage and social welfare because we know they're necessary to stabilize the budget.
now can explain to me how am i to have sympathy for people out there protesting that their 30 00+ salaries are being slashed down, or that their minimum wage is going to go back to the level it was in 2004? even better what about the people on social welfare that get 2 and more payments and moan about the welfare cut?

ronbyrne2005

Theres plenty of people on minimum wage who manage to rent a place with friends, eat, dress, pay everyday bills ,socialise etc all on under 400euro a week so how can those on dole claim they cant surivive if dole is cut when they have few expenses at all to pay for out of the 200euro?

the_syco

Martyr wrote: »

Now however, put yourself in the shoes of an IT student who might be forced to work for €5 or less an hour part time while his college and exams fees are being increased this year.

As an IT student, I didn't find it easy to get a job during the boom. At the current rate, I can't see many IT students getting a job. If all the companies goto Poland to get cheap labor, when the students finish their degrees, they'll have to migrate to Poland to get a job. Dell already has migrated to Poland to get cheaper labour. More may follow, or skip Ireland, and go straight to Poland.

Martyr wrote: »

Stereotypical BS.

I know polish and slovakians and they shop in places like aldi because they're not paid well, if that's what you call being "competitive" why don't you try it out some time?

There's a polish dude to my left at work, and he can work as well as me. I shop in Aldi and Lidl, because it's cheaper. It's cheaper because there's usually only 7 people in the store, 2 being on the tills. In Tescos, there'd be 5 people on the tills, and many more stocking shelves.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Aye, I remember working in a kitchen for £2 an hour. Weekends meant two or three 12 hour shifts. Not much, but when I was 16, it was.

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

Theres plenty of people on minimum wage who manage to rent a place with friends, eat, dress, pay everyday bills ,socialise etc all on under 400euro a week so how can those on dole claim they cant surivive if dole is cut when they have few expenses at all to pay for out of the 200euro?

Cos they need to spend it on their social lives. Seems I must toil away, so that they can do f**k all, drink their tinnies, smoke their Johnny Blue, and terrorize those whose taxes fund their lifestyle

I say sterilise anyone who is on the dole for more than 30 years, apart from those unable to work due to illness, loss of limbs, etc. And no, dislike of working doesn't count.