What Happens if No Wins again?

Sam Vimes

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Well it's theoretically possible to ratify an EU treaty by the Oireachtais where the competency of the EU is not being increased. It would still be open to a legal challenge, of course.

I don't think Lisbon fits the criteria as EU competencies are being increased, either way the FF government didn't bother finding out, and reverted to a default position of handing it over to the people with little or no help in understanding it.

That's true but that's true whether Lisbon is ratified or not

PopeBuckfastXVI

Sam Vimes wrote: »

That's true but that's true whether Lisbon is ratified or not

Yes, it's all contained within our Constitution.

K-9

Deleted User wrote: »

So back to the point where 3 Yes'ers jump in. Recently on Politics.ie one of you, not sure which one but definitely someone who posts here, started a thread about how the Lisbon forum there is biased towards the No side. Much hilarity ensued when it was pointed out that the majority of people voted No last year therefore its only natural that the majority of opinions would reflect that. Thats what happens when free speech is allowed.

It should only be a small difference though.

K-9

K-9 wrote: »

It should only be a small difference though.

Well how do u account for the massive imbalance here then?

I'll tell you, because as soon as a No person posts the Generation Yes'rs go to town. To noob's I'm sure this is intimidating hence the lack of interaction here other than the usual suspects.

Now, I do appreciate the dedication that some of the posters put into their arguments but you gotta admit its a complete overkill from GY here. I'm pretty sure some noob's would see that as suspicious.

K-9

Deleted User wrote: »

Well how do u account for the massive imbalance here then?

I'll tell you, because as soon as a No person posts the Generation Yes'rs go to town. To noob's I'm sure this is intimidating hence the lack of interaction here other than the usual suspects.

Now, I do appreciate the dedication that some of the posters put into their arguments but you gotta admit its a complete overkill from GY here. I'm pretty sure some noob's would see that as suspicious.

Well, the vote thread has the no side leading. The AH poll has more No votes.

On any forum you'll have your dedicated posters. I'd check in here regularly as well so some of us are here on a consistent basis, not just when it's popular or current.

Soap boxing or just repeating slogans isn't allowed here unlike politics.ie.

Dinner

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll tell you, because as soon as a No person posts the Generation Yes'rs go to town.

When you say 'Generation Yes'rs' do you mean people actually involved in Generation Yes or do you just mean anyone who will vote yes?

Just asking because I'm not aware of many posters here who are heavily involved with them. There's only one that I know of but you make it sound as if there are loads.

oscarBravo

Deleted User wrote: »

Well how do u account for the massive imbalance here then?

There isn't a massive imbalance. There's roughly half and half in favour of and opposed to the treaty. The thread with the poll in it should tell you that, if nothing else.

I'll tell you, because as soon as a No person posts the Generation Yes'rs go to town. To noob's I'm sure this is intimidating hence the lack of interaction here other than the usual suspects.

Now, I do appreciate the dedication that some of the posters put into their arguments but you gotta admit its a complete overkill from GY here. I'm pretty sure some noob's would see that as suspicious.

Two things: first, which specific posters do you mean when you talk about "GY"? Second, you talked about freedom of speech - why do you have a problem with people expressing views that differ from yours?

KINGVictor

K-9 wrote: »

Well, the vote thread has the no side leading. The AH poll has more No votes.

On any forum you'll have your dedicated posters. I'd check in here regularly as well so some of us are here on a consistent basis, not just when it's popular or current.

Soap boxing or just repeating slogans isn't allowed here unlike politics.ie.

OMG...how is that an answer to his post. Such flourishes as soap boxing do not apply.

K-9

KINGVictor wrote: »

OMG...how is that an answer to his post. Such flourishes as soap boxing do not apply.

The comparison was made by him/her previously with politics.ie

oscarBravo

On that point, the whole discussion is off-topic.

nixmix, you claimed that it wasn't a criticism of moderation, but I can't see how it could be anything else. If you have a complaint about bias in the forum, take it to the Help Desk. If you have a problem with people disagreeing with you, sorry, but that's how discussion forums work.

oscarBravo

oscarBravo wrote: »

On that point, the whole discussion is off-topic.

nixmix, you claimed that it wasn't a criticism of moderation, but I can't see how it could be anything else. If you have a complaint about bias in the forum, take it to the Help Desk. If you have a problem with people disagreeing with you, sorry, but that's how discussion forums work.

point proven!

Hitman Actual

Deleted User wrote: »

Well how do u account for the massive imbalance here then?

I'll tell you, because as soon as a No person posts the Generation Yes'rs go to town. To noob's I'm sure this is intimidating hence the lack of interaction here other than the usual suspects.

Now, I do appreciate the dedication that some of the posters put into their arguments but you gotta admit its a complete overkill from GY here. I'm pretty sure some noob's would see that as suspicious.

Are you saying that every Yes supporter on here is involved with GY? Only a couple spring to mind, tbh.

Also, I thought posters involved with a group needed to make their affiliation known? [Is that not a general rule on boards?]

oscarBravo

No, seriously: off-topic.

Sam Vimes

irlande_euroluv wrote: »

A second 'NO' vote would tell our joke of a government that we are not all feckin eejits, like they think and we are not gonna vote 'YES' this time on the exact same treaty.

Which articles of the treaty did you object to and why? If your reason for rejecting it was, say, you didn't understand it (as 42% of people said) then you've had two years to familiarise yourself so that's not really a valid reason anymore now is it?

And since we know that 42% of people don't have a valid reason to vote no anymore, would you consider that justification to ask them again?

irlande_euroluv wrote: »

Also a second 'NO' would let the Euro elite know that we won't give up our sovereignty and our identity that our forefathers fought so hard to achieve for us.

So you want us to leave the EU do you? Any form of membership gives up some of our sovereignty.

tlev

irlande_euroluv wrote: »

A second 'NO' vote would tell our joke of a government that we are not all feckin eejits, like they think and we are not gonna vote 'YES' this time on the exact same treaty. Also a second 'NO' would let the Euro elite know that we won't give up our sovereignty and our identity that our forefathers fought so hard to achieve for us.

http://http://wethepeople.ie/index.html

http://http://www.truthcoalitionireland.org/?page_id=6

Because Ireland are so much better off without the EU? :rolleyes:

P. Breathnach

tlev wrote: »

Because Ireland are so much better off without the EU? :rolleyes:

Typo? Didn't you mean that the EU would be better off without Ireland?

tolosenc

irlande_euroluv wrote: »

A second 'NO' vote would tell our joke of a government that we are not all feckin eejits, like they think and we are not gonna vote 'YES' this time on the exact same treaty. Also a second 'NO' would let the Euro elite know that we won't give up our sovereignty and our identity that our forefathers fought so hard to achieve for us.

http://wethepeople.ie/index.html

http://www.truthcoalitionireland.org/?page_id=6

Which Article in the treaty states that the Irish people "are not all feckin eejits"?

Also, lol @ the links...

ei.sdraob

who are these "elite"s these Nooooes speak of?

Sam Vimes

ei.sdraob wrote: »

who are these "elite"s these Nooooes speak of?

shhhhhhut uuuuup


<_<

>_>

turgon

The EU Elite is a psychological construct created by the No side, who can level an inordinate amount of abuse at the Elites who for their part cannot even respond, simply because they do not even exist.

Dob74

ei.sdraob wrote: »

who are these "elite"s these Nooooes speak of?

The elites are the fee paying school boys who mismanage this country.
If you are on minimum wage you have to compete with workers all over the world.
But if you in a senior position you cant be touched no matter how incompetent or corrupt you are.
Go through the list of people in senior positions in this country and it is scary to see how few aren't fee paying school boys.
We are almost as bad as Britian in terms of our class system.

PopeBuckfastXVI

So is it only if you both went to a fee paying school and mismanage the country?

What about people who just went to fee paying schools, but don't mismanage the country?

What about people who didn't go to fee paying schools, but do mismanage the country?

What about people who went to fee paying schools, and manage quite well, are they elite?

Are you still 'elite' if you got elected?

And if all of that clarifies who the Irish 'elites' are, then who are the 'euro-elites'?

ei.sdraob

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/business/ceos-believe-no-vote-harmed-irelands-reputation-1842283.html

The majority of Irish businesses feel that Ireland's 'no' vote in the Lisbon Treaty referendum damaged the country's reputation abroad, according to a survey by IBEC.
The employers' group says 84% of CEOs think the rejection of the treaty had a negative affect on how Ireland is perceived internationally.
Ninety-eight per cent of respondents also said EU membership was important for the success of Irish companies.
IBEC says international perceptions are very important for the Irish economy due to its heavy reliance on exports.

As company director I agree with above

I had business dealings (recession sigh) with belgian co, myself and their manager used to get into long debates on politics lets just say the image of Ireland abroad is less than flattering as is :cool:

Sam Vimes

ei.sdraob wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/business/ceos-believe-no-vote-harmed-irelands-reputation-1842283.html



As company director I agree with above

I had business dealings (recession sigh) with belgian co, myself and their manager used to get into long debates on politics lets just say the image of Ireland abroad is less than flattering as is :cool:

no, no, no you can't say that, it's scaremongering :rolleyes:

You have to stick to the issues like the EU elite steelin our freedomz

ei.sdraob

Sam Vimes wrote: »

no, no, no you can't say that, it's scaremongering :rolleyes:

You have to stick to the issues like the EU elite steelin our freedomz

ugh your right, let me stick my head in sand and sing lalalalala

lets ignore the people who are in charge of our companies and actually generate wealth by exporting goods and services others needs we can just keep borrowing 400million a week at ever increasing interest rates in-definetely

you know no wonder the country is fecked, not many people think outside the box, the only box they care about is their overvalued property which they enslaved themselves to, may as well be our coffins

bleh wheres that sand bucket of moine...

ei.sdraob

ei.sdraob wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/business/ceos-believe-no-vote-harmed-irelands-reputation-1842283.html

The majority of Irish businesses feel that Ireland's 'no' vote in the Lisbon Treaty referendum damaged the country's reputation abroad, according to a survey by IBEC.
The employers' group says 84% of CEOs think the rejection of the treaty had a negative affect on how Ireland is perceived internationally.
Ninety-eight per cent of respondents also said EU membership was important for the success of Irish companies.
IBEC says international perceptions are very important for the Irish economy due to its heavy reliance on exports.

As company director I agree with above

Ok lets break this down:
'The majority of Irish businesses feel that Ireland's 'no' vote in the Lisbon Treaty referendum damaged the country's reputation abroad, according to a survey by IBEC.' IBEC is a lobby group that does not represent the interests of the majority.

'The employers' group says 84% of CEOs think the rejection of the treaty had a negative affect on how Ireland is perceived internationally.' Perception is irrelevant and not quantifiable. If you want to be scared into a Yes vote based on some mysterious 'perception' fire ahead but you are being fooled!

'Ninety-eight per cent of respondents also said EU membership was important for the success of Irish companies.' I'm sure it does, however that is irrelevant to the Lisbon treaty.

'IBEC says international perceptions are very important for the Irish economy due to its heavy reliance on exports.' Yawn... lobby group just want to be popular..awww.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I had business dealings (recession sigh) with belgian co, myself and their manager used to get into long debates on politics lets just say the image of Ireland abroad is less than flattering as is :cool:

Poor petal, how were you able to manage? A Belgian talking politics to you, talk about boring! Well guess we all must be cool and part of the gang so we must vote yes!

ei.sdraob

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok lets break this down:
'The majority of Irish businesses feel that Ireland's 'no' vote in the Lisbon Treaty referendum damaged the country's reputation abroad, according to a survey by IBEC.' IBEC is a lobby group that does not represent the interests of the majority.

'The employers' group says 84% of CEOs think the rejection of the treaty had a negative affect on how Ireland is perceived internationally.' Perception is irrelevant and not quantifiable. If you want to be scared into a Yes vote based on some mysterious 'perception' fire ahead but you are being fooled!

'Ninety-eight per cent of respondents also said EU membership was important for the success of Irish companies.' I'm sure it does, however that is irrelevant to the Lisbon treaty.

'IBEC says international perceptions are very important for the Irish economy due to its heavy reliance on exports.' Yawn... lobby group just want to be popular..awww.



Poor petal, how were you able to manage? A Belgian talking politics to you, talk about boring! Well guess we all must be cool and part of the gang so we must vote yes!

uhm ok your attempt at sarcasm just went whoosh :rolleyes:

you say perceptions "is irrelevant and not quantifiable"

then of ya go and setup a business in Iraq or Somalia....

IBEC represents 7500+ businesses, lets just ignore what a big chunk of businesses in this country are saying and throw a few more slogans around, eh?

perceptions and confidence in Ireland is everything, dont forget we have to put up a show every week before we go out there hat in hand begging for another 400million euro, to keep welfare and public sector running for next week.

lack of confidence and a perception that we are bad for business == no investment

if you don't believe me the look at California whose credit rating (a measure of confidence) is near junk

Sam Vimes

Deleted User wrote: »

Perception is irrelevant and not quantifiable. If you want to be scared into a Yes vote based on some mysterious 'perception' fire ahead but you are being fooled!

It may not be quantifiable but perception can make or break a business. Just look at O'Briens Sandwich bar who are perceived as being expensive and are now in examinership where other sandwich bars are doing fine.

Also, I can point to the entirety of the scaremongering from the no side and say "that is a lie, that is never going to happen". Can you say the same of this?

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sure it does, however that is irrelevant to the Lisbon treaty.

Its relevant if the perception of Ireland in Europe is damaged by a pointless no vote.

prinz

Deleted User wrote: »

'The employers' group says 84% of CEOs think the rejection of the treaty had a negative affect on how Ireland is perceived internationally.' Perception is irrelevant and not quantifiable. If you want to be scared into a Yes vote based on some mysterious 'perception' fire ahead but you are being fooled!

....and the Celtic Tiger was based on what exactly? Something relevant and quantifiable? No it was based on perceptions and confidence. This thread is sounding more and more like something from Conspiracy Theory forum everyday. Next it'll be Bilderberg Group and David Icke... Lisbon does sound remarkably like Lizard...it must be a sign :eek:

Sam Vimes

prinz wrote: »

....and the Celtic Tiger was based on what exactly? Something relevant and quantifiable? No it was based on perceptions and confidence

Good point. In fact the major cause of the recession is loss of confidence. People are afraid they're going to lose their jobs or taxes are going to go up so they stop spending money so the businesses they would have spent their money in go bankrupt so more people go on the dole so taxes have to go up and then the first guy loses his job because no one's buying anything from his business because they're afraid they're going to lose their jobs or taxes are going to go up.

Lather, rinse, repeat. Perception is crucial in business