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What Happens if No Wins again?
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Good point. In fact the major cause of the recession is loss of confidence. People are afraid they're going to lose their jobs or taxes are going to go up so they stop spending money so the businesses they would have spent their money in go bankrupt so more people go on the dole so taxes have to go up and then the first guy loses his job because no one's buying anything from his business because they're afraid they're going to lose their jobs or taxes are going to go up.
You're fighting a losing battle I fear. No point in arguing economic fall out with someone with no grasp of economics whatsoever.0 -
Boyos,you've really outdone yourselves this time. 5 replies to my post in a matter of minutes! you're like a bunch of vultures circling!
Sam,in response to your comment on OBriens,it wasnt perceived as expensive,it WAS expensive. Perception and reality are two different things. Perception can be based on misconceptions,reality is..well real!
ei.sdraob,Iraq and Somlia are ACTUALLY dangerous,not just perceived to be,see point above for more info on that point.
Prinz, Celtic tiger wasnt based on perception but many different factors which are not relevant to this thread and you know how trigger happy some people get when No voters start talking about off topic things so I wont go down that route...0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Ok lets break this down:
'The majority of Irish businesses feel that Ireland's 'no' vote in the Lisbon Treaty referendum damaged the country's reputation abroad, according to a survey by IBEC.' IBEC is a lobby group that does not represent the interests of the majority.
'The employers' group says 84% of CEOs think the rejection of the treaty had a negative affect on how Ireland is perceived internationally.' Perception is irrelevant and not quantifiable. If you want to be scared into a Yes vote based on some mysterious 'perception' fire ahead but you are being fooled!
'Ninety-eight per cent of respondents also said EU membership was important for the success of Irish companies.' I'm sure it does, however that is irrelevant to the Lisbon treaty.
'IBEC says international perceptions are very important for the Irish economy due to its heavy reliance on exports.' Yawn... lobby group just want to be popular..awww.
Poor petal, how were you able to manage? A Belgian talking politics to you, talk about boring! Well guess we all must be cool and part of the gang so we must vote yes!Deleted User wrote: »Boyos,you've really outdone yourselves this time. 5 replies to my post in a matter of minutes! you're like a bunch of vultures circling!
Sam,in response to your comment on OBriens,it wasnt perceived as expensive,it WAS expensive. Perception and reality are two different things. Perception can be based on misconceptions,reality is..well real!
ei.sdraob,Iraq and Somlia are ACTUALLY dangerous,not just perceived to be,see point above for more info on that point.
Prinz, Celtic tiger wasnt based on perception but many different factors which are not relevant to this thread and you know how trigger happy some people get when No voters start talking about off topic things so I wont go down that route...
Perception is everything and increasingly so in these media friendly days. Could have been the main reason for the No vote! :eek:Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Deleted User wrote: »Boyos,you've really outdone yourselves this time. 5 replies to my post in a matter of minutes! you're like a bunch of vultures circling!
Sam,in response to your comment on OBriens,it wasnt perceived as expensive,it WAS expensive. Perception and reality are two different things. Perception can be based on misconceptions,reality is..well real!
ei.sdraob,Iraq and Somlia are ACTUALLY dangerous,not just perceived to be,see point above for more info on that point.
Prinz, Celtic tiger wasnt based on perception but many different factors which are not relevant to this thread and you know how trigger happy some people get when No voters start talking about off topic things so I wont go down that route...
But nixmix, if there's a perception that doing business in Ireland is bad, does it really matter if it actually is or not? Wouldn't the end result be exactly the same?0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Prinz, Celtic tiger wasnt based on perception but many different factors which are not relevant to this thread and you know how trigger happy some people get when No voters start talking about off topic things so I wont go down that route...
Uhmm yes it was. It was all perception that a half acre could be suddenly worth €20 million..... then the next seller says well if they got 20 I want €23 million etc etc into inflation and exaggerated expectations. The construction industry fueled the boom and perception, inflated egos and greed fueled the construction industry. There was no actual reason why prices went throught the roof. There is no real reason why the rent on a single bedroom in Santry is more than I'd pay for a two bed state of the art apartment in a mid sized German city with bills included. It was all imagination. It was all the if-someone-else-can-get-it-I-can-too, perception.
Ireland is seen as being at the heart of Europe. Of having a key role. Of being influential and revelling in good relations with our partners. A no vote will kick us to the margins. The thought that this will have no economic knock on effect is ridiculous.0 -
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Ireland is seen as being at the heart of Europe. Of having a key role. Of being influential and revelling in good relations with our partners. A no vote will kick us to the margins. The thought that this will have no economic knock on effect is ridiculous.
Any facts to back up this speculation?0 -
is not the same as understanding democracy. We voted no for a variety of good reasons and some vague assurances is not the same as getting it in writing.
There are a few people who will benefit from Lisbon but most won't. And those who think the EU is going to come running with chests of cash to bail out our home grown gangsters are living in a fools paradise.0 -
Any facts to back up this speculation?
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/business/ceos-believe-no-vote-harmed-irelands-reputation-1842283.html
84% of CEO's said that the last no vote had a negative effect
That's exactly the problem mate, we didn't vote no for a good reason, we voted no because of fear, misinformation, lies and hatred of Fianna Fail. What are these fabled "good reasons" you speak of?is not the same as understanding democracy. We voted no for a variety of good reasons and some vague assurances is not the same as getting it in writing.
Also, we got the assurances in writing, in legally binding writingThere are a few people who will benefit from Lisbon but most won't. And those who think the EU is going to come running with chests of cash to bail out our home grown gangsters are living in a fools paradise.
No one said they would0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Ok lets break this down:
'The majority of Irish businesses feel that Ireland's 'no' vote in the Lisbon Treaty referendum damaged the country's reputation abroad, according to a survey by IBEC.' IBEC is a lobby group that does not represent the interests of the majority.
'The employers' group says 84% of CEOs think the rejection of the treaty had a negative affect on how Ireland is perceived internationally.' Perception is irrelevant and not quantifiable. If you want to be scared into a Yes vote based on some mysterious 'perception' fire ahead but you are being fooled!
'Ninety-eight per cent of respondents also said EU membership was important for the success of Irish companies.' I'm sure it does, however that is irrelevant to the Lisbon treaty.
'IBEC says international perceptions are very important for the Irish economy due to its heavy reliance on exports.' Yawn... lobby group just want to be popular..awww.
Poor petal, how were you able to manage? A Belgian talking politics to you, talk about boring! Well guess we all must be cool and part of the gang so we must vote yes!
Contrary to what you’ve said perception can be quantified both in degree and amount, in fact an opinion poll is a measure of perception e.g. ask a 1000 people if they think that a No damaged Ireland’s reputation internationally and you get a measure of perception, (eg. X% think a No damaged….).
Ask 1000 people if they strongly agree, agree, neither agree nor disagree, disagree or strongly disagree with the statement that a No damaged Ireland’s international reputation and you get a measure of the degree of that perception, e.g. Y% strongly agree that a No damaged…. Ironically what you dismissed as unquantifiable was in fact quantified in the survey.
As for your last comment, ei.sdraob is out in Belgium trying to win some business for his company and in the process maintain or increase employment in Ireland, it doesn’t help if our image is less than flattering and may get worse… nobody is saying this alone is a reason to vote yes but it is one more weight on the Yes side of the scale.
Btw, there are inaccuracies is the Indo's report of the survey see http://www.ibec.ie/IBEC/Press/PressPublicationsdoclib3.nsf/vPages/Newsroom~survey-lisbon-rejection-damaged-ireland's-reputation-27-07-2009?OpenDocument?OpenDocument0 -
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Any facts to back up this speculation?
The true effect of a final No vote on the economy will only be seen after the No vote by which time it is too late so we have to try to predict it's effect by using all the facts at our disposal. One fact is that the business and especially the multinational sector are strongly calling for a Yes vote, so here is some proof:
Jim O Hara, General Manager of Intel Ireland
http://www.businessandleadership.com...all-for-action
Paul Rellis, Managing Director of Microsoft Ireland & President of AMCHAM
http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp...0157&&CatID=36
Paul Duffy, Senior Executive, Pfizer Ireland.
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/...story39739.asp
The multinational sector is responsible for over 80% of our exports and employs over 100,000 directly and similar numbers indirectly. We are all dependent on the multinational sector to some extent because of it's huge contribution to the Irish Economy.
In case anyone thinks I'm defending a relatively small number of business leaders, I'm not, I'm putting the case for a large number of employees and those of us who would be affected by economic decline.0 -
The true effect of a final No vote on the economy will only be seen after the No vote by which time it is too late so we have to try to predict it's effect by using all the facts at our disposal. One fact is that the business and especially the multinational sector are strongly calling for a Yes vote, so here is some proof:
Jim O Hara, General Manager of Intel Ireland
http://www.businessandleadership.com...all-for-action
Paul Rellis, Managing Director of Microsoft Ireland & President of AMCHAM
http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp...0157&&CatID=36
Paul Duffy, Senior Executive, Pfizer Ireland.
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/...story39739.asp
The multinational sector is responsible for over 80% of our exports and employs over 100,000 directly and similar numbers indirectly. We are all dependent on the multinational sector to some extent because of it's huge contribution to the Irish Economy.
In case anyone thinks I'm defending a relatively small number of business leaders, I'm not, I'm putting the case for a large number of employees and those of us who would be affected by economic decline.
The economic decline is down to a global recession, not just within Europe, Also whats in it for the multinationals?0 -
The economic decline is down to a global recession, not just within Europe, Also whats in it for the multinationals?
It goes without saying that economic decline is down to a global recession, I never said otherwise, but local factors such as those mentioned in the references can also have a strong local effect.
"What's in it for the Multinationals?", continued investment in Irish based MNC's I would have thought. MNC branches compete with other international branches for investment, eg. new technologies (processor lines) for Intel or drugs in the case of Pfizer. Remember continued investment in Irish MNC's usually means continued operation in Ireland.
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pfft we dont need no MNC's and no native businesses
the nation survived fine on spuds and fish for centuries before
:P0 -
is not the same as understanding democracy. We voted no for a variety of good reasons and some vague assurances is not the same as getting it in writing.
Well, let's clear that misunderstanding up. There's a sticky in this forum, which has the text of the guarantees. We have them in writing, and they're legally binding international agreements.There are a few people who will benefit from Lisbon but most won't. And those who think the EU is going to come running with chests of cash to bail out our home grown gangsters are living in a fools paradise.
Given that what Lisbon primarily does is increases the democratic controls in the EU, I think it's safe to say that everybody benefits.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
Just out of interest, does anyone know what Ireland's Risk Assessment is at the moment? Is it still A1, or has it changed?
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Furious-Dave wrote: »Just out of interest, does anyone know what Ireland's Risk Assessment is at the moment? Is it still A1, or has it changed?
Downgraded one step by various ratings agencies, S&P and Moodys being the prominent. S&P downgraded Ireland from AAA to AA+, which is bad enough, but added that they might do it again, which is really bad news.
Edit: Wait, doh! They already did that in June to AA. Sorry.0 -
Our economy is built on FDI. The only reason it's still here is that the E.U. is seen as our guarantors. Take that away, even a move in that direction and billions of euro leave this country. That's not scaremongering it's fact. We don't have a domestic economy capable of keeping the country afloat, unlike other EU states.
Sorry but this is scaremongering. Had we voted yes, would that have averted a global economic depression? Nope. Why did the global bubble pop? Because of a)nations or b)transnationalism? I feel that, by now, even the left disagrees with globalisation (as evidenced by protests, for example at the WTO meeting). Amy Goodman (Democracy now) was actually arrested --what is the world coming to.0 -
or you could do the same and keep it on topic
(couldnt resist one last plug)0 -
ButcherBoiz wrote: »Okay, I know this is off-topic (kinda), but because of all the talk in this thread about super states, dictatorships doom and gloom and economic depression... this video should lift moods with a few laughs:
Ps. This has gone super-viral on youtube and it is hilarious.
It's not "off-topic (kinda)", it's off-topic, period, and it's been deleted. Don't post it again - this is the Politics forum, not After Hours.
moderately,
Scofflaw0 -
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If we do vote no again, a national holiday should be instituted in celebration of the courage of the Irish people in standing up for democracy against the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels and Irish govt carpetbaggers eyeing plush offices and expenses in Brussels upon departure from Irish political life. Indeed I would ask that a monument, similar to the July Column (call it the Lisbon Column) in France, be erected in Dublin to commemorate the capacity of democracy to triumph over tyranny. Like Charles X of France in 1830, the Eurocrats are trying to force undemocratic government on the peoples of Europe. When we vote no, they refuse to accept our decision. If the EU insists on pushing through Lisbon over the objections of nations that voted no, then it will have crossed the Rubicon from democracy into tyranny. This country was founded on self-determination - the right of nations to determine their political-future. In riding roughshod over the no votes of the French and Dutch peoples, the ruling-classes of Europe are taking the EU in a new and dangerous direction. Like the Bourbons, they have learned nothing.0
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FutureTaoiseach wrote: »If we do vote no again, a national holiday should be instituted in celebration of the courage of the Irish people in standing up for democracy against the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels and Irish govt carpetbaggers eyeing plush offices and expenses in Brussels upon departure from Irish political life. Indeed I would ask that a monument, similar to the July Column (call it the Lisbon Column) in France, be erected in Dublin to commemorate the capacity of democracy to triumph over tyranny. Like Charles X of France in 1830, the Eurocrats are trying to force undemocratic government on the peoples of Europe. When we vote no, they refuse to accept our decision. If the EU insists on pushing through Lisbon over the objections of nations that voted no, then it will have crossed the Rubicon from democracy into tyranny. This country was founded on self-determination - the right of nations to determine their political-future. In riding roughshod over the no votes of the French and Dutch peoples, the ruling-classes of Europe are taking the EU in a new and dangerous direction. Like the Bourbons, they have learned nothing.
fine speech there except you managed to slip in a few lies
dutch and french did not vote on the Lisbon Treaty but on European Constitution
anyways we can always stick up another needle in the sky to show a middle finger to the outside world0 -
FutureTaoiseach wrote: »If we do vote no again, a national holiday should be instituted in celebration of the courage of the Irish people in standing up for democracy against the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels and Irish govt carpetbaggers eyeing plush offices and expenses in Brussels upon departure from Irish political life. Indeed I would ask that a monument, similar to the July Column (call it the Lisbon Column) in France, be erected in Dublin to commemorate the capacity of democracy to triumph over tyranny. Like Charles X of France in 1830, the Eurocrats are trying to force undemocratic government on the peoples of Europe. When we vote no, they refuse to accept our decision. If the EU insists on pushing through Lisbon over the objections of nations that voted no, then it will have crossed the Rubicon from democracy into tyranny. This country was founded on self-determination - the right of nations to determine their political-future. In riding roughshod over the no votes of the French and Dutch peoples, the ruling-classes of Europe are taking the EU in a new and dangerous direction. Like the Bourbons, they have learned nothing.
Tyranny? Are you serious? You are comparing the EU to the likes of North Korea, Old school soviet union and Zimbabwe for example. Do tears come to your eyes when you say this ideological nonsense? So if Lisbon does get pushed through are you and your fellow revolutionaries going to take to the streets to oppose this?0 -
Tyranny? Are you serious? You are comparing the EU to the likes of North Korea, Old school soviet union and Zimbabwe for example. Do tears come to your eyes when you say this ideological nonsense? So if Lisbon does get pushed through are you and your fellow revolutionaries going to take to the streets to oppose this?
Question how many wars have the european power centers been involved in? How many are they involved in right now? How many people including pregnant women, children and minorities are injured (as in amputees) or have died as a result. How much money do the centers of power in Europe put into military force? Is that justified? What is your position on the foreign policies within Europe and NATO?
These are the real questions. If you want to look at some real research, i.e. research that has taken decades and that has arrived at the cold, hard facts (versus the kind of "internet based research" prevalent in the forum) please see the following critiques of the political structures of the Western world, with special emphases on the USA and western Europe:
(by Noam Chomsky):
(1967). The Responsibility of Intellectuals
(1969). Perspectives on Vietnam [microform].
(1969). American Power and the New Mandarins New York: Pantheon. ISBN 978-0140211269
(1970). Notes on Anarchism, New York Review of Books
(1971). At war with Asia. New York: Pantheon. ISBN 978-0006326540
(1970). Two Essays on Cambodia. ISBN 978-0950030067
(1971). Chomsky: selected readings ISBN 978-0194370462
(1972). Problems of Knowledge and Freedom: The Russell Lectures. New York: Pantheon. ISBN 978-0394718156
(1972). The Pentagon Papers. Senator Gravel ed. vol. V. Critical Essays. Boston: Beacon Press; includes index to vol. I-IV of the Papers. With Howard Zinn.
(1973). For Reasons of State. New York: Pantheon. ISBN 978-0002112420
(1973). Counter-Revolutionary Violence - Bloodbaths in Fact & Propaganda (with Edward S. Herman). Andover, MA: Warner Modular. Module no. # 57.
(1974). Peace in the Middle East? Reflections on Justice and Nationhood. New York: Pantheon. ISBN 978-0394712482
(1976). Intellectuals and the State. ISBN 978-9029396714
(1978). Human Rights and American Foreign Policy. ISBN 978-0851242019
(1979). Language and Responsibility. New York: Pantheon. ISBN 978-0855275358
(1979). The Political Economy of Human Rights, Volume I: The Washington Connection and Third World Fascism (with Edward Herman) ISBN 0851242480 ISBN 0-89608-090-0
(1979). The Political Economy of Human Rights, Volume II: After the Cataclysm: Postwar Indochina and the Reconstruction of Imperial Ideology (with Edward Herman) ISBN 0851242723 ISBN 978-0896081000
(1982, 2003). Radical Priorities. Montréal: Black Rose; Stirling, Scotland: AK Press. Otero, C.P.
(1982). Superpowers in collision: the cold war now (with Jonathan Steele and John Gittings). ISBN 978-0140224320
(1982). Towards a New Cold War: Essays on the Current Crisis and How We Got There. New York: Pantheon ISBN 978-0394518732
(1983, 1999). The Fateful Triangle: The United States, Israel, and the Palestinians. Boston: South End Press. ISBN 978-0896086012 ISBN 978-0896081871
(1985). Turning the Tide : U.S. intervention in Central America and the Struggle for Peace. Boston: South End Press. ISBN 978-0896082663
(1986). Pirates and Emperors: International Terrorism and the Real World. New York: Claremont Research and Publications. ISBN 0685177548
(1986). The Race to Destruction: Its Rational Basis ISBN 978-0851245171
(1986). The Soviet Union Versus Socialism
(1987). The Chomsky Reader. Peck, James (ed.). ISBN 0394751736 ISBN 978-0394751733
(1987). On Power and Ideology: Managua Lectures. Boston: South End Press. ISBN 978-0896082892
(1987). Turning the Tide: the U.S. and Latin America ISBN 978-0896082670
(1988). The Culture of Terrorism. Boston: South End Press. ISBN 978-0896083349
(1988). Language and Politics. Montréal: Black Rose. ISBN 978-0921689348
(1988, 2002). Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media. New York: Pantheon.(with Edward Herman)
(1989). Necessary Illusions. Boston: South End Press. ISBN 978-0896083660
(1991). Terrorizing the Neighborhood: American Foreign Policy in the Post-Cold War Era. Stirling, Scotland: AK Press. ISBN 978-0962709128
(1992). What Uncle Sam Really Wants. Berkeley: Odonian Press.
(1992). Chronicles of Dissent. Monroe, ME: Common Courage Press.
(1992). Deterring Democracy. New York: Hill and Wang.
(1993). Letters from Lexington: Reflections on Propaganda. Monroe, ME: Common Courage Press.
(1993). The Prosperous Few and the Restless Many. Berkeley: Odonian Press.
(1993). Rethinking Camelot: JFK, the Vietnam War, and U.S. Political Culture. Boston: South End Press.
(1993). World Order and Its Rules: Variations on Some Themes
(1993). Year 501: The Conquest Continues. Boston: South End Press.
(1994). Keeping the rabble in Line. Monroe, ME: Common Courage Press.
(1994). Secrets, Lies, and Democracy
(1994). World Orders, Old and New. New York: Columbia University Press.
(1996). Powers and Prospects: Reflections on Human Nature and the Social Order
(1996). Class Warfare. Pluto Press.
(1997). One Chapter, The Cold War and the University
(1997). Media Control: The Spectacular Achievements of Propaganda ISBN 1583225366
(1997). (Ed.) The Cold War & the University: Toward an Intellectual History of the Postwar Years. Authors: Ira Katznelson, R. C. Lewontin, David Montgomery, Laura Nader, Richard Ohmann, Ray Siever, Immanuel Wallerstein, Howard Zinn ISBN 1-56584-005-4
(1998). The Common Good.
(1999). The Umbrella of US Power: The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Contradictions of US Policy. Seven Stories Press. ISBN 978-1888363852
(1999). Latin America: From Colonization to Globalization
(1999). Acts of Aggression: Policing "Rogue" States (with Edward W. Said)
(1999). The New Military Humanism: Lessons from Kosovo. ISBN 978-1567511765
(1999). Profit over People: Neoliberalism and Global Order . Seven Stories Press. ISBN 978-1888363821
(1999). The Fateful Triangle: United States, Israel and the Palestinians. Pluto Press. ISBN 0-7453-1530-5
(2000). Chomsky on Mis-Education (edited by Donaldo Macedo) ISBN 978-0742501294
(2000). A New Generation Draws the Line: Kosovo, East Timor and the Standards of the West. Verso Books. ISBN 1-85984-380-8
(2000). Rogue States: The Rule of Force in World Affairs. Cambridge: South End Press.
(2001). Propaganda and the Public Mind. ISBN 978-0896086340
(2001). 9-11. Seven Stories Press. ISBN 1-58322-489-0
(2002). Understanding Power: The Indispensable Chomsky. Mitchell, Peter and John Schoeffel (ed.). [2].
(2002). Chomsky on Democracy and Education (edited by C.P. Otero)
(2002). Media Control: The Spectacular Achievements of Propaganda. Seven Stories Press. ISBN 1-58322-536-6
(2002). Pirates and Emperors, Old and New: International Terrorism in the Real World. Pluto Press. ISBN 0-7453-1980-7
(2003). Power and Terror: Post-9/11 Talks and Interviews
(2003). Middle East Illusions: Including Peace in the Middle East? Reflections on Justice and Nationhood . Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. ISBN 0-7425-2977-0
(2003). Hegemony or Survival: America's Quest for Global Dominance. Metropolitan Books. (Part of the American Empire Project).
(2003).'The Prosperous Few and the Restless Many. Pluto Press. ISBN 1-878825-03-8
(2003). Understanding Power: The Indispensable Chomsky. Vintage. ISBN 0-09-946606-6
(2003). Znet article, Deep Concerns http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=3293
(2004). Getting Haiti Right This Time: The U.S. and the Coup (with Paul Farmer and Amy Goodman) . Common Courage Press. ISBN 1-56751-318-2
(2005). Chomsky on Anarchism (ed Barry Pateman). AK Press. ISBN 1-904859-20-8
(2005). Government in the Future. Seven Stories Press. ISBN 1-58322-685-0. Government in the future. Seven Stories Press. 2005. ISBN 1583226850. Text of the lecture given at the Poetry Center, New York, February 16, 1970.
(2005). Imperial Ambitions: Conversations on the Post-9/11 World. Metropolitan Books. (Part of the American Empire Project). ISBN 0-8050-7967-X
(2006). Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy . Metropolitan Books. ISBN 0-8050-7912-2. ISBN 0241143233
(2006). Perilous Power. The Middle East and U.S. Foreign Policy. Dialogues on Terror, Democracy, War, and Justice (with Gilbert Achcar) ISBN 1594513120
(2007). Interventions. City Lights Publishers. City Lights. ISBN 0-87286-483-9. ISBN 9780872864832
(2007). What We Say Goes: Conversations on U.S. Power in a Changing World ISBN 0805086714
(2008). The Essential Chomsky. ISBN 978-1595581891
(2010). Hopes and Prospects. ISBN 978-1931859967
or
Edward Said:
Dreams and Delusions, Al-Ahram, 21~27 August 2003. Appears also at AMIN, 21 August 2003. ‘Hyperbole . . . has ruled the public realm [in the United States], beginning of course with Bush himself whose metaphysical statements about good and evil, the axis of evil, the light of the almighty and his endless . . . effusions about the evils of terrorism, have taken language about human history and society to new, dysfunctional levels of pure, ungrounded polemic.’
Orientalism 25 Years Later: Worldly Humanism v. the Empire Builders, AMIN, 6 August 2003. Appears also as Preface to Orientalism, Al-Ahram, 7~13 August 2003. ‘Nine years ago I wrote an afterword for Orientalism which, in trying to clarify what I believed I had and had not said, stressed not only the many discussions that had opened up since my book appeared in 1978, but the ways in which a work about representations of “the Orient” lent itself to increasing misinterpretation. That I find myself feeling more ironic than irritated about that very same thing today is a sign of how much my age has crept up on me.’
Rule by the Blind, Counterpunch, 21 July 2003. Appeared first as ‘Blind Imperial Arrogance’, Los Angeles Times, 20 July 2003. Appears also at AMIN, 22 July 2003, and as Imperial Perspectives in Al-Ahram, 24~30 July 2003. ‘Every empire . . . tells itself and the world that it is unlike all other empires, that its mission is not to plunder and control but to educate and liberate.’
The Meaning of Rachel Corrie: Of Dignity and Solidarity, Counterpunch, 23 June 2003. Appears also at AMIN, 23 June 2003, and as Dignity and Solidarity in Al-Ahram, 26 June~2 July 2003, and Dignité et Solidarité in Solidaires du peuple palestinien, 1 July 2003. ‘Only if we respect ourselves as Arabs and Americans, and understand the true dignity and justice of our struggle, only then can we appreciate why, almost despite ourselves, so many people all over the world, including Rachel Corrie and the two young people wounded with her from ISM . . . have felt it possible to express their solidarity with us.’
Archaeology of the Roadmap, Al-Ahram, 12~18 June 2003. Appears also at AMIN, 12 June 2003, and in expanded form as The Latest Peace Plan: A Roadmap to What and Where? Counterpunch, 14 June 2003, and A Road Map to Where? London Review of Books, 19 June 2003. ‘The road map, in fact, is not a plan for peace so much as a plan for pacification.’
An Unprecedented Crisis: The Arab Condition, AMIN, 21 May 2003. Appears also as The Arab Condition, Al-Ahram, 22~28 May 2003. ‘It is . . . of the utmost importance that we recall in the first instance that, despite their many divisions and disputes, the Arabs are in fact a people not a collection of random countries passively available for outside intervention and rule.’
Give Us Back Our Democracy, The Observer, 20 April 2003. Appears also in expanded form at AMIN, 21 April 2003, as ‘What is Happening in the United States’ in Counterpunch, 22 April 2003, and Al-Ahram, 24~30 April 2003, and in Arabic here. ‘Let us examine what the US’s Middle East policy has wrought since George W. Bush came to power.’
The Academy of Lagado, London Review of Books, 17 April 2003. ‘Full of contradictions, flat-out lies and groundless affirmations, the torrent of reporting and commentary on the “coalition” war against Iraq has obscured the negligence of the military and policy experts who planned it and now justify it.’
The Other America, Al-Ahram, 20~26 March 2003. Appears also in Counterpunch, 21 March 2003, and as The Alternative United States, AMIN, 20 March 2003. ‘Is America indeed united behind this president, his bellicose foreign policy, and his dangerously simple-minded economic vision?’
Always on Top, London Review of Books, 20 March 2003. Review of Civilising Subjects: Metropole and Colony in the English Imagination, by Catherine Hall. Includes in addition to a generally favourable review of Hall’s work an overview of the successes and failures of post-colonial writing.
Who is in Charge? Al-Ahram, 6~12 March 2003. Appears also at AMIN, 6 March 2003, Counterpunch, 8 March 2003, and as ¿Quién está a cargo? in Rebelion, 10 March 2003. ‘An immensely wealthy and powerful republic [the United States] has been hijacked by a small cabal of individuals, all of them unelected and therefore unresponsive to public pressure, and simply turned on its head.’
A Monument to Hypocrisy, Al-Ahram, 13~19 February, 2003. Appears also at AMIN, 13 February 2003, and as A Monumental Hypocrisy, Counterpunch, 15 February 2003, and Un monumento a la hipocresía, CSCA web, 13~19 February 2003. ‘It has finally become intolerable to listen to or look at news in [the United States]. I’ve told myself over and over again that one ought to leaf through the daily papers and turn on the TV for the national news every evening, just to find out what “the country” is thinking and planning, but patience and masochism have their limits.’
An Unacceptable Helplessness, Al-Ahram, 16~22 January 2003. Appears also at AMIN, 16 January 2003, Counterpunch, 18~19 January 2003, and as When Will We Resist?, Guardian, 25 January 2003, When Will Arabs Resist?, Counterpunch, 25 January 2003, and Una impotencia inaceptable, CSCA web, 16~21 January 2003. ‘Hasn't the time come for us collectively to demand and formulate a genuinely Arab alternative to the wreckage about to engulf our world?’
Immediate Imperatives, Al-Ahram, 19~25 December 2002. Appears also at AMIN, 19 December 2002, and Counterpunch, 21 December 2002. ‘For all sorts of reasons, among them that the cause of Palestine (like the liberation of apartheid South Africa) has always served as a model for Arabs and fair-minded idealistic people everywhere, it is today imperative that Palestinians take steps to restore the fashioning of their destiny to their own hands.’
Misinformation about Iraq, Al-Ahram, 28 November~4 December, 2002. Appears also at AMIN, 28 November 2002, Counterpunch, 3 December 2002, and as Desinformación sobre Iraq, CSCA web, 4 December 2002. ‘The flurry of reports, leaks, and misinformation about the looming US war against Saddam Hussein’s dictatorship in Iraq continues unabated.’
Europe Versus America, Al-Ahram, 14~20 November 2002. Appears also at AMIN, 14 November 2002, and Counterpunch, 16 November 2002. ‘Certainly Europe generally and Britain in particular have a much larger and more demographically significant Muslim population [than the United States], whose views are part of the debate about war in the Middle East and against terrorism. So discussion of the upcoming war against Iraq tends to reflect their opinions and their reservations a great deal more than in America, where Muslims and Arabs are already considered to be on the “other side”, whatever that may mean.’
Noam Chomsky is an MIT Professor, Edward Said dies in 2003 but was a Professor at Columbia. AS you can see, this is real research, about the real world. Not to mention plenty of common sense, and no political rhetoric --0 -
ButcherBoiz wrote: »Question how many wars have the european power centers been involved in? How many are they involved in right now? How many people including pregnant women, children and minorities are injured (as in amputees) or have died as a result. How much money do the centers of power in Europe put into military force? Is that justified? What is your position on the foreign policies within Europe and NATO?
Ireland is not in NATO and never will be, Lisbon has nothing to do with NATO we were given guarantees (not that they were needed) that Lisbon does not affect our neutrality
EU is not an empire, get over it0 -
Ireland is not in NATO and never will be, Lisbon has nothing to do with NATO we were given guarantees (not that they were needed) that Lisbon does not affect our neutrality
EU is not an empire, get over it
Just so you know, all you are expressing are opinions, mostly relying on your "internet based research", which is limited and you need to acknowledge that. I have just provided a list of reputable texts, from well established authors, and if you actually work through these texts, there is plenty to be said about the various forms of unification at the European level, from after WWII to the present, and about the related forms of globalisation.
Good luck.0 -
ButcherBoiz wrote: »Just so you know, all you are expressing are opinions, mostly based on your "internet based research", which is limited and you need to acknowledge that. I have just provided a list of reputable texts, from well established authors, and if you actually work through these texts, there is plenty to be said about the various forms of unification at the European level, from after WWII to the present.
Good luck.
what do any of these text have to do with Lisbon Treaty or Irish neutrality?
last i checked its 2009(2010). Hopes and Prospects. ISBN 978-19318599670 -
ButcherBoiz wrote: »Just so you know, all you are expressing are opinions, mostly relying on your "internet based research", which is limited and you need to acknowledge that. I have just provided a list of reputable texts, from well established authors, and if you actually work through these texts, there is plenty to be said about the various forms of unification at the European level, from after WWII to the present, and about the related forms of globalisation.
Good luck.
I'm not relying on internet based research and I am not saying the EU is perfect either. But to compare it to outright tyranny just seems a bit absurd. We will never have a perfect society where everyone holds hands and picks daisies. Okay so you ask me about justification of involvement in wars. War is unjustifible but there seem to be bigger issues in the world than what the EU is doing
What about the slaughter of Zimbabwe people at the hands of xenophobic South Africans.
What about the tyrannical rule of Kim Jong Il or many African countries with constant civil wars
Human rights issues in China
You really can't compare the EU to these kind of issues/places.
And before you say that yes we gave them guns to start the wars/opress the people, even Barack Obama has said that the rest of the world has to start taking responsibility for their actions rather than collectively saying oh, it's the those dirty Western B******* fault we are in this mess.0 -
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what do any of these text have to do with Lisbon Treaty or Irish neutrality?
last i checked its 2009
Have you ever heard of the expression "in press"... or "in production" or "accepted for publication" ... no?
If you actually read the texts, then you will better appreciate the relevance of bonafide research. You also need to appreciate the need to go beyond internet sources that treat of issues in isolation or which fail to treat of wider political contexts and debates, all of which are extremely relevant to contemporary Ireland, contemporary Europe, and the proposed future direction of both (as expressed in the Lisbon treaty, for example). This is an example of "in depth" research, that works from the foundations up. Googling "lisbon treaty" and other net searches will only get you so far....0
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIARJj9WajQ
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