DOE for campers

salamander27

peasant wrote: »

Is it just me or is this whole affair just another example of a typical Irish farcical mess?

Let's make it up as we go along and tell no-one about it ....

I'm all for testing of campers, after all it's in our own interest, but not like this.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm going to wait until someone official (i.e. the motor tax people) tells me in writing that I have to get my camper tested.

Totally agree. They have my address. I'm waiting for the letter.

OuterBombie

Hi lads,

I'm taking the same view as Peasant on this one, wait and see what happens. However while being in the process of buying a van at the moment (more on that next week), i'm wondering about the glazing issue:

Macspower wrote: »

Non-glass glazing must be to an automotive standard; therefore, if the material is marked as such (e.g. E-marked 43R signifying type approval to UNECE Regulation 43 for automotive glazing) it will not require further documentation. The burden of proof is on the owner to show that that the glazing meets automotive standards for the reason you mentioned. It is not the responsibility of the test centre to investigate the source and quality of the glazing.

Anyone have details on seitz windows, a lot of vans are fitted with them. I searched for a seitz website with no joy. I'm hoping they are to an automotive standard, would anyone know otherwise? or be able to point me to a website with more information.

Thanks,

Ray.

peasant

Seitz windows have an "R" stamp ...at least mine have

Factory built motorhomes must pass EU homologation, they wouldn't if the windows didn't comply

OuterBombie

peasant wrote: »

Seitz windows have an "R" stamp ...at least mine have

Factory built motorhomes must pass EU homologation, they wouldn't if the windows didn't comply

Thanks Boss, I suspected as much, couldn't see Germans putting non complying anything onto German factory build vans.

zagmund

I've been holding off checking, just in case . . .

I had a look now and my factory fitted ('93 Hymer) Seitz windows don't have an R - waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. There is a D512 though - any ideas if that will keep them happy ? If not, then Hymer and others are going to be getting lots of mails from "Concerned of Longford/Blackrock/Kilfenora" looking for certificates. Alternatively, does anyone want to buy a '93 Hymer Camp which meets all currently enforced regulations (for the moment anyway) ?

My replacement windows bought last year (according to Mrs Zag the original one "just fell out") has a 43R. On the plus side I'll be able to keep at least one of my windows. Yaaaay. I might add that then the original one 'just fell out' it didn't shatter. Does that help my case ?

z

bugsntinas

i've been reading this for awhile and it seems like a typical irish government balls up.what's with the reflective strips(i know exempt at the moment)i have a mk2 transit swb and if it has these strips on it will ruin the look as it's a classic.is the doe going to be for campers aswell as motorhomes as there is quite a difference between the 2 especially old ones as in 27 year old?

sunchaser

Has anybody asked the question of any camper with a tag axel, whether it be under or over 3.5t with an alko chassis. You will be in for a little surprise, as far as DOE are conserned it is a modification to existing chassis and the fun begins. I am told a little worse than the window problem.

Slidey

Well if it has a manufacturers plate states that there is 3 axles then you are sound.

If not then you will need to get an independent assessment from an engineer.

peasant

With the exception of home conversions or aftermarket additions, the campers that drive around on Irish roads weren't just conjured up out of nowhere. They were buildt in dedicated motorhome manufacturers to the EU standards / national guidelines that applied at the time.
These motorhomes had to be homologated and pass the relevant safety inspections before they could be sold to the public. In case of s/h imports they also quite likely have been tested several times by the TUV, MOT or whatever else applied.

Who does the RSA / DOE think they are that they can all of a sudden come along and doubt the safety expertise of other EU countries and make up their own rules? (particularly after not giving a hoot for decades :rolleyes:)

If the windows on my van were good enough to pass the German TUV about ten times, they should bloody well be good enough to pass here without me having to bring along any paperwork whatsoever.

The same goes for any ALKO chassis, Westfalia highroof or whatever else came standard with your camper.

peasant

Slidey wrote: »

Well if it has a manufacturers plate states that there is 3 axles then you are sound.

If not then you will need to get an independent assessment from an engineer.

You do realise that a double axle where the hubs are less than 1 meter apart technically counts as a single axle and can be plated as such?

Don't ask me for the relevant EU regulation, I don't know it ...it's true nonetheless

Slidey

I didn't know that. I will do a bit of digging tomorrow and see what I can find out.

peasant

An Alko double axle chassis should however be plated with three axles ...but there may be exceptions as mentioned above

http://www.al-ko.co.uk/Downloads/amc_handbook/al-koamchandbook_17-18.pdf

Slidey

I will open it 2mrw in work, if I install Adobe on this yoke for whatever reason it plays merry hell.

Just thinking though, I metre wheel base with wheels and tyres must be very tight.

Des32

Hi all,
I own a transport business so I rang the DOE garage that I use today to see if they had any information, They have tested a few motorhomes and they said to get a form from my insurance company which specifies what has to be tested, Sounds like the 15 year engineers report to me but they said it for a DOE. Then I rang Dolmen and it was the first they heard of a DOE for motorhomes. They told me to ring the Dept of transport, don't think I will bother.

*Kol*

Its all a geting a bit complicated now. For the 5 times a year I use my MH it's not worth the hassle to get it done unless you cant tax or insure it.

peasant

Maybe if we stop talking about it (giving the RSA ideas in the process) it will just go away?

:D:D

2 stroke

I've emailed the rsa a few times but only half of my questions are being answered by them.

blue42

only a matter of time before this government finds a way to screw money out of campervan and motorhome owners, nearly time to go back to camping i think!:(

bugsntinas

i ain't gonna bother although my van needs work so won't be on the road this year:(
surely they have to treat motorhomes and campers differently as they are different from each other i mean our mk2 camper is like a minibus in appearance and is totally different from a mk2 motorhome.
i'd love to see the test critirea for them all.

salamander27

I've been trawling the statute books looking for any reference to campers being tested and have come up with zilch. Could anyone point me where it states legally campers must be tested?

nailer8

I don't understand how camper owners expect they should have an easier test than owners of other vehicles.
If you only do 5000 miles per year then once your vehicle passes the DOE test one year it should pass it every other year with little of no repairs. If your vehicle is not safe it is not safe whither you drive 5 miles or 500k miles.

Most campers start their life as commercial vehicle chassis of some form or other so it is only natural they are tested in a DOE center.

When i found out about all this i got my camper checked over for the DOE and found that the front brakes were nearly gone, a few bushings were worn out and worst of all one of my front wheel bearings had almost collapsed.
I wasn't impressed but it would have been worse to go in over the ditch!

BTW i do agree the window thing is a pain in the A**. I have one Seitz with 43R and one with no markings at all, not sure what to do about that.

2 stroke

nailer8 wrote: »

I don't understand how camper owners expect they should have an easier test than owners of other vehicles.
If you only do 5000 miles per year then once your vehicle passes the DOE test one year it should pass it every other year with little of no repairs. If your vehicle is not safe it is not safe whither you drive 5 miles or 500k miles.

Most campers start their life as commercial vehicle chassis of some form or other so it is only natural they are tested in a DOE center.

When i found out about all this i got my camper checked over for the DOE and found that the front brakes were nearly gone, a few bushings were worn out and worst of all one of my front wheel bearings had almost collapsed.

Nailer I don't expect to have an easier test than owners of other vehicles, I also don't want the cost of an expensive goods vehicle test every year. I want a proper camper test which includes electricty and gas. A guy asked me to look at a problem with his van last week. He had a 200 w inverter permanently wired to his driving battery, although this could be highly dangerous in a colision, I believe it wouldn't fail a doe test.

Although my van is based on a commercial vehicle chassis, it is no longer designed or capable of carrying 1950kg of cargo

Regarding the condition of your own van, how could you let it get so bad? If mine was in that condition I wouldn't drive it.

bugsntinas

what about classic ones.mine isn't based on a chassis cab more like a minibus but a camper.will that be subjected to the same test as a new motorhome?
they need to get it sorted 'cause people are going to loose out with this one.:(

Converse

It appears that the Gardai in Limerick are more adept at applying this 'new' legislation ! [Traffic Corps]

While the legislation is not new it appears that the inforcement is hot off the blocks. Probably based on the RSA memo : issued 21st July 09
http://www.rsa.ie/SERVICES/upload/File/VT/VI%2007-09%20Testing%20of%20Campers.pdf

The RSA told me they are working with the revenue to 'close' the system. I guess that means you might get a letter next year. In the meantime could someone at least ask these guys to make it a little easier to comply.

The law was put on the statute books in 2004 by Martin Cullen. It effectively covers all classes of vehicles. It seems a little while has passed since !

Refer to the statute book - This gives the Garda rights to stop and request a DOE cert. You have 1 month and 10 days to present same.

I dont mind the testing, its the typical irish implementation thats the issue.
Also try conforming to the Glazing requirements - Why do we have to be different. Well done to the relevant bodies for rolling this one out in this fashion.

Big_Mac

So whats the story with the 3.5 Tonnes weight for a vehicle then?

Say I convert an Iveco daily or a Sprinter, is the 3.5 Tonnes GVW, Unlaiden weight after the van is converted or what?

In essence, if the van is over 3.5t and is later than october 01, you will need a limiter fitted. So when does it become 3.5T exactly can anyone tell me?

peasant

Big_Mac wrote: »

So whats the story with the 3.5 Tonnes weight for a vehicle then?

Say I convert an Iveco daily or a Sprinter, is the 3.5 Tonnes GVW, Unlaiden weight after the van is converted or what?

In essence, if the van is over 3.5t and is later than october 01, you will need a limiter fitted. So when does it become 3.5T exactly can anyone tell me?

Why not get it directly from the horses mouth?

This gentleman cooked this mess up ...let him answer

If there are any questions on this subject, please contact Bill Barry, Engineer at billbarry@rsa.ie or +353-91-872646.

peasant

The more I think about this, the more annoyed I get. Let's re-capitulate:

Apparently it was made law that campers have to be tested in 2004. Nobody was told about this, not the owners or the testers nor the gardai

Then ...five years later (!!!) someone in the RSA decides that they'd better do something about this and send a memo to all test centers (not the owners of course, because that would make sense)

To make it look like they put some thought into this, they enter a few camper specific clauses / amendments to the regular DOE test that make no sense. Let's pick through them, shall we?

Campers, camper vans, and motor homes are subject to roadworthiness testing under S.I. No. 771 of 2004, European
Communities (Vehicle Testing) Regulations 2004. For vehicle testing purposes, these vehicles fall under the “goods
vehicle” category which is defined in the SI as follows;
“goods vehicle” means a mechanically propelled vehicle, or an articulated vehicle, constructed or adapted primarily
for the conveyance of goods or burden of any description whether or not the vehicle is used for such a purpose.

Well ..here's a bit of news for the RSA: In order to get a camper (or to be precise a "motor caravan") to be registered and taxed as such, it has to fulfill the following criteria:

"'motor caravan' means a vehicle which is shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioners to be designed, constructed or adapted to provide temporary living accommodation which has an interior height of not less than 1.8 metres when measured in such manner as may be approved by the Commissioners and, in respect of which vehicle, such design, construction or adaptation incorporates the following permanently fitted equipment—

( a ) a sink unit,

( b ) cooking equipment of not less than a hob with 2 rings or such other cooking equipment as may be prescribed, and

( c ) any other equipment or fittings as may be prescribed;".

Ding, ding, ding ...anyone spot the difference between the two ?


Not the RSA, apparently ...that one went straight over their heads ...motor caravans are not (and mustn't be by law) goods vehicles ...so, why test them as such?


Then there is the glazing red herring. Yes, I can understand ...they don't want vehicles/conversions driving around with normal window glass in them...fair enough. But placing the burden of proof on the owner to provide a cert from the manufacturer? Hello? Has the RSA any idea of the average age / time of service of something as expensive as a motorhome? We don't just throw them away after five years. There are perfectly serviceable motorhomes out there whose manufacturers have long since gone bust. Will their owners not be able to pass a test because of this?
In any "normal" country, vehicle testers rely on the EU type approvals (without which the vehicles wouldn't make it onto the road in the first place) ...but Ireland has to be "different" again. And ...why is it that owners of private cars don't have to provide that certificate, only us?

Tachographs and speed limiters ...in non-commercial, private vehicles? I'm not aware of any other EU country that requires them. In fact, I'm not aware of any new motorhomes over 3.5 tons being sold with them (I'm open to correction on this one though)

And now for the killer in this memo:

Modifications - any of these vehicles that have had modifications that may have safety implications, shall have written approval as per item 12 in the introduction of the current HGV Testers Manual.

I have no idea what this item 12 is ...but I'm pretty sure that every single one of our motorhomes has a "modification" that may be deemed to have safety implications if you catch the tester on the wrong foot.

Starting with factory fittings like air suspension, tow bars and bike carriers continuing with accessories like awnings, satellite dishes and roofboxes and ending with home made seat cushions and curtains.

I'm sorry to say ...but this whole thing is a farcical, ill-thought out nightmare

Macspower

this ^^^^^

salamander27

The "goods vehicle" definition may have tenuously covered the camper van with "whether or not the vehicle is used for such a purpose." but that is very unclear. That would probably cover conversions but should that include hymer campers that are only based on the chassis of a "goods vehicle" and were never "constructed or adapted primarily for the conveyance of goods or burden of any description".

But if they wanted to legislate for the testing of camper vans they should have included that in the definitions like they did for ambulance.

“ambulance” means a mechanically propelled vehicle used for the purpose of carrying sick, injured or disabled persons;

If this legislation does cover campers then its unreasonable to expect pre 2004 campers to conform to any regulations (other than brakes, lights, chassis, etc) seeing as there is no regulations or standard to build campers to in this country.

I'm on for testing but in a more sympathetic way!

2 stroke

If this leglislation covers campers, surely by the same logic, it also covers motorbikes and tractors.

Slidey

It should also cover mobile plant and the Circus.

They are 2 of the worst offenders out there for having heaps on the road.

Old yankie heaps of shyte that they cannot get parts for.

Irishgoatman

Hi all, I've just been over to the U.K. to buy a small (under 1k cc) campervan only to find out that I need to get it D.O.E. tested!
This cannot be right as it is a private vehicle not commercial.
In the 70's, in U.K. I converted a 49 seater coach to a motor home ( very much a D.I.Y. job but very comfortable) and because it was taxed as a private car no commercial testing garage would touch it and no M.O.T. garage could take a vehicle that size. When I contacted the police for advice they told me that it was exempt!.
My campervan has 3 months U.K. road tax on it, it has a full 12 months (less 12 days) M.O.T. cert. & it is insured, therefore (as I understand things) it will be perfectly legal for me to drive it anywhere in the E.U.
Yes I agree that ALL vehicles on the road should be tested but I am not prepared to let my vehicle be tested as a commercial, afterall it is taxed and insured as a PRIVATE campervan.
I've only just joined this site so if anyone is going to fight this crazy situation please let me know. No wonder you hear people say " That's the Irish for you".

bugsntinas

welcome to the site and debate.i lived in the uk for 35 years and things are so much easier and normal over there.i think it's gonna take a while for this to be sorted and yes THAT'S IRELAND FOR YA!!!!
what hope have we got now they're on about introducing property take at an adverage of €1000 per year and water rates and child benefit tax etc.we're in for a good time ahead with everything.:mad::mad:

peasant

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Hi all, I've just been over to the U.K. to buy a small (under 1k cc) campervan only to find out that I need to get it D.O.E. tested!

Where and from whom did you find that out? Here on this website or through official channels?

Just want to guage how far this has progressed yet.

spaceHopper

Irishgoatman wrote: »

My campervan has 3 months U.K. road tax on it, it has a full 12 months (less 12 days) M.O.T. cert. & it is insured, therefore (as I understand things) it will be perfectly legal for me to drive it anywhere in the E.U.

Don't see the problem for not I just imported a camper and had no trouble taxing it. If you are stopped show them the MOT cert, England is in the EU so they should have to accept it - if they won't give them hell on the road side.

Irishgoatman

peasant wrote: »

Where and from whom did you find that out? Here on this website or through official channels?

Just want to guage how far this has progressed yet.

I got the information when I rang Davitt House In Castlebar to see about re-registering the van and I then 'phoned a local D.O.E. testing garage to find out the cost.
The charge quoted to me was 86 euro and they assured me that the test was the same as the N.C.T. not brutal or anything. When I questioned the garage as to how they can test a private vehicle as a commercial the reply was "I don't make the laws". Nice responce wasn't it?.

Irishgoatman

spaceHopper wrote: »

Don't see the problem for not I just imported a camper and had no trouble taxing it. If you are stopped show them the MOT cert, England is in the EU so they should have to accept it - if they won't give them hell on the road side.

I agree. That's the line I intend to take but having said that surely there are enough campervan/mobile Home owners here to get this law changed to something sensible. All vehicles need to be tested over a certain age but I don't think this is the way.

Big_Mac

peasant wrote: »

Why not get it directly from the horses mouth?

This gentleman cooked this mess up ...let him answer

Now for ya, I've emailed Bill Barry, and here's what he's had to say. It clears it up a bit I have to say.

Dear

---

:

The Gross Vehicle Weight of a vehicle, also known as maximum permissible mass is equal to the unladen mass of the vehicle plus the maximum permissible load the vehicle can carry, whether fixed or moveable. The design GVW is fixed by the manufacturer based on vehicle capabilities in areas such as engine, suspension, brakes, and tyres. The manufacturer’s plate affixed to the vehicle lists the GVW. This weight (mass) may not be exceeded under any circumstances.

Speed limitation devices are required on goods vehicles with a design GVW exceeding 3500 kg. This is covered under S.I. No. 831 of 2005, a link to which can be found on the RSA website, www.rsa.ie.

I hope this answers your query.

Now, how do you like those apples

Slidey

Speed limitation devices are only needed on vehicles registered after 1988 in excess of 12,000kg GVW and on vehicles in excess of 3500kg if first registered after 1st of October 2001.

Irishgoatman

Hi everyone,
I'm starting to get a headache!!!!

peasant

Speed limitation devices are required on goods vehicles with a design GVW exceeding 3500 kg

Big_Mac wrote: »

Now, how do you like those apples

Not at all ...but then again, why would I be bothered ...I drive a "motor caravan" and not a goods vehicle :pac:

(and its 3.5 tons max ...but that's beside the point)

I feel a convoy to the RSA in Galway coming up ...who's coming?

Macspower

peasant wrote: »

Not at all ...but then again, why would I be bothered ...I drive a "motor caravan" and not a goods vehicle :pac:

(and its 3.5 tons max ...but that's beside the point)

I feel a convoy to the RSA in Galway coming up ...who's coming?

georgeawe

Macspower wrote: »

Heard wisper that clubs are gonna do something. Think we should stop moaning and be like the farmers always do and take action. This has been going on to long now without being told from the powers that be.

Big_Mac

peasant wrote: »

Not at all ...but then again, why would I be bothered ...I drive a "motor caravan" and not a goods vehicle :pac:

(and its 3.5 tons max ...but that's beside the point)

I feel a convoy to the RSA in Galway coming up ...who's coming?

I would, but I need to build my campervan first. Thinking of an Iveco Daily LWB as a base wagon. Anyone happen to know the GVW of them?

peasant

Big_Mac wrote: »

I would, but I need to build my campervan first. Thinking of an Iveco Daily LWB as a base wagon. Anyone happen to know the GVW of them?

depends on the model ..they are available with 3.5 - almost 7 tons

Irishgoatman

peasant wrote: »

Not at all ...but then again, why would I be bothered ...I drive a "motor caravan" and not a goods vehicle :pac:

(and its 3.5 tons max ...but that's beside the point)

I feel a convoy to the RSA in Galway coming up ...who's coming?

Convoy to Galway? Count me in!

Irishgoatman

Hi All,
Has anyone managed to get hold of an up to date copy of the D.O.E. Vehicle Tester's Manual for light vehicles?
If so I would like to see it. I've tried Google but without success.
I downloaded one on another thread but it is well out of date.
Also, if any one has put a light camper through its D.O.E. I would be very interested to know how it went.

When I say "light", my camper is a Bedford Rascal RomaHome. Now that is light!!

Slidey

This is the current manual.

I have seen the new proposed manual but it will not be implemented for another year yet. AFAIK it has not been seen by people outside of test centres as it was only a draught copy.

Irishgoatman

Slidey wrote: »

This is the current manual.

I have seen the new proposed manual but it will not be implemented for another year yet. AFAIK it has not been seen by people outside of test centres as it was only a draught copy.

Thanks. Now I'm more confused!
On the opening page of the web site for this manual it states ".........for vehicles covered by European Communities (Vehicle Testing) Regulations 1991".
As my camper has just, 2 weeks ago, been issued with a full 12 months U.K. M.O.T cert. this complies with E.U. regulations and therefore, surely, it should not require anything else?
Anyone have any comments on this please.

peasant

Nope ..."foreign" equivalents of NCT or DOE tests are not recognised here.
Others have tried and failed on the whole EU argument