DOE for campers

bmwdriver

ITS SIMPLE , THE COUNTRY IS ROYALY AND TRULY

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D
ITS A SIMPLE AS THAT
THEY WILL SCRAPE AT ANYTHING NOW TO GET MORE REVENUE

WHY IS IT SO DIFFICULT TO SORT OUT A CAMPER VAN ?

Irishgoatman

Things have been quiet lately so lets start the ball rolling again.
Ten days ago I finally had my imported 'van re-registered (see previous postings). Yesterday I received my registration cert. (I'll talk about VRT on the other thread when my appeal is settled).
Lo and behold, the cert. reads : model (D2) Motorcaravan. The EU vehicle category (J) N1.
Now the fun starts!
Under all ( and I've spent approx. 7 hours today researching this ) E.U. classifications and directives, N1 is shown as relating to "light commercial vehicals".
All campervans are shown as classification M or M1 (could not figure out which) as "vehicles designed for carrying less than 8 people" not goods.
So, does anyone out there have a cert. from another E.U. country showing the vehicle category?. My U.K. cert was returned, by the seller, to Swansea so I don't know how it read.
There is no way that a cert. should be able to read as 2 different classes of vehicle.
By showing the vehicle category as N1, yes they can insist on a D.O.E. test. This would appear to me to be a way round the fact that they appear to have missed out on 'vans when they brought the N.C.T. in.
Next question is, what was the classification shown on registration certs. before the N.C.T. came into being?. Answers please.
Once again I'm getting a headache.

spaceHopper

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Lo and behold, the cert. reads : model (D2) Motorcaravan. The EU vehicle category (J) N1.

I brought mine in in June Cert is dated 21 July and mine is N1 as well. But if you are right and 90 of older campers are M class then they can't be tested.

I don't mind having mine tested it will pass but I'm not going to be ripped off by having it tested every year and maying 3 times as much for two years NCT. If they want to test campers (or blame the EU for making then) then it has to be a proper test for campers.

zagmund

My 93 Hymer Camp (registered here in 2004) has a vehicle category of B on the Vehicle Registration Certificate . . . does this make it a car or something ? The Vehicle Licensing Certificate has it down as "H OTHER" for make and model and "MOTOR CARAVAN" for motor taxation class.

I have a copy of the original fahrzeugbrief - I don't see any Ns or Bs, but if anyone can tell me the correct field to check I can see what it was registered as in Germany . . . if that helps.

z

niloc1951

Hi irishgoatman, the 'key' to the isue can be found here http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32001L0116:EN:NOT
Scroll down to DEFINITION OF VEHICLE CATEGORY and on to paragraph 5.1 where you will see 'motor caravan' defined within category M.
Of particular relevance is 5.3. "Ambulances" means motor vehicles of category M intended for the transport of sick or injured people and having special equipment for such purpose.
In the regulations which set out the categories of vehicle to be tested under the DOE legislation ambulances are SPECIFICALLY mentioned. This indicates that it was understood by the people drawing up the legislation that they DID NOT fall within Category N: Motor vehicles with at least four wheels designed and constructed for the carriage of goods and required specific mention of them had to be included. BUT, AND THIS IS THE KEY TO THE ISSUE, 'motor caravan' also a "Special purpose vehicle" of Category M IS NOT MENTIONED
I have just checked my own Reg. Cert. and it shows EU Vehicle Category N1 which is clearly WRONG with reference to [font=&quot]Directive 2001/116/EC
[/font][font=&quot]I would be interesting to see what category ambulances are given in the Reg. Cert. does anybody know how to get sight of or a copy of one.[/font][font=&quot]
[/font]

Irishgoatman

I've just been on to the Motor Tax office in Castlebar about this confusion over category and the very helpful person admitted that she had no idea as to who is responsible for entering the N1 into the system. She has asked me to let her have a copy of the cert. and a copy of the E.U. directive and she will look into it. It looks as though no-one has queried this with them before so watch this space!
The more up to date directive is : Directive 2007/46/EC of 5 September 2007. Pages 62,64 and 65 contain the relevant passages.

Irishgoatman

zagmund wrote: »

My 93 Hymer Camp (registered here in 2004) has a vehicle category of B on the Vehicle Registration Certificate . . . does this make it a car or something ? The Vehicle Licensing Certificate has it down as "H OTHER" for make and model and "MOTOR CARAVAN" for motor taxation class.

I have a copy of the original fahrzeugbrief - I don't see any Ns or Bs, but if anyone can tell me the correct field to check I can see what it was registered as in Germany . . . if that helps.

z

Hi Zagmund, You need to look at (J) under code descriptions on your current cert. for the E.U. vehicle category then try to find the equivalent on the German cert. if possible. All the rest, as you've described it, appears to be the same as mine and correct. I think that the B you refer to is for (J1) VRT category which in my case, and probably yours, was 13.5%.

Irishgoatman

spaceHopper wrote: »

I brought mine in in June Cert is dated 21 July and mine is N1 as well. But if you are right and 90 of older campers are M class then they can't be tested.

I don't mind having mine tested it will pass but I'm not going to be ripped off by having it tested every year and maying 3 times as much for two years NCT. If they want to test campers (or blame the EU for making then) then it has to be a proper test for campers.

Hi Spacehopper,

I agree with you. As I said on an earlier posting, my 'van was tested in the U.K. in August so I've no worries about it passing another test but it has to be as a campervan not a commercial vehicle and no rip-off over the cost or frequency.

Des32

My motorthome is a coachbuilt which I imported earlier this year, I checked my vehicle registration cert today it also is shown as category n1

Up here its different !

peasant

Another N1 here on the Irish reg.

BTW on older German paperwork you won't find anything about N or M categories. There they spell it out. A camper would be a "So.KFZ Wohnmobil"

Maybe that changed later, but I doubt it.

niloc1951

Earlier today I sent the following mail to the motor tax office in Shannon.

It has come to my attention that the EU Vehicle Category, code (J), on my Registration Certificate is incorrectly described as Category N1.

In Commission Directive 2001/116/EC of 20 December 2001 motor caravans are categorised as follows; "Motor caravan" means a special purpose M category vehicle constructed to include living accommodation which contains at least the following equipment: - seats and table, - sleeping accommodation which may be converted from the seats, - cooking facilities, and - storage facilities. This equipment shall be rigidly fixed to the living compartment; however, the table may be designed to be easily removable.

I would appreciate it very much if you would issue an amended Certificate indicating the correct EU Vehicle Category (M) as per the above Directive.

To which I have received the reply:
Can you please return your original Vehicle Registration Certificate to me please at Driver & Vehicle Computer Services Division, Department of Transport, Shannon, Co. Clare. If you have a copy of the original paperwork that was given to the Revenue Commissioners to register the vehicle you might please also let me have a copy of it.

Which I will do, it looks like possible progress, but in which direction I don't know .

Irishgoatman

Well done Niloc1951, As my previous posting, Ithink this is the way to go.
But how did you get a reply so quick ?.
Did you send your letter to a specific department?. When trying to ring them I have been refered back to my local motor tax office.
Good for you. We will win.

niloc1951

irishgoatman,
I sent an email to motortax@transport.ie.
In fairness to them they responded within a couple of hours to both my mails.
Ref. their request for copies of the original paperwork for the Revenue Commissioners, I explained that I did not have it to which they replied that they will contact the Revenue Commissioners themselves in relation to it.

The query seems to be being handled by a conscientious person

decci

hello been reading this thread for a while now and am still a bit confused is a doe a legal requirement or not at this moment in time, i just seen a add on done deal for a camper stating a doe is a requirement for all campers, fecks it up for everybody else trying to sell if not true

peasant

decci wrote: »

hello been reading this thread for a while now and am still a bit confused is a doe a legal requirement or not at this moment in time, i just seen a add on done deal for a camper stating a doe is a requirement for all campers, fecks it up for everybody else trying to sell if not true

My understanding of the state of affairs is this (and I may well be wrong !)

Apparently some shape or form of test for "motorcaravans" is a legal requirement since about 2002 or so ...just nobody bothered to do anything about it, never mind implement it.

Then a few months ago, someone woke from their slumber in the RSA (probably because they were being threatened with a budget cut) and wrote a confusing letter to all DOE stations outlining some hastily nailed together "test criteria" for motorcaravans, some of which have since been retracted or rephrased.

And then there was this garda chief down in Limerick who stopped motorhomes and asked for DOE certs

As an owner of a "motorcaravan" I am still waiting for any sort of official information notifying me that I indeed do need a DOE test for my vehicle

I have not yet heard of anyone getting an official notification with the renewal of their tax for example

Irishgoatman

niloc1951 wrote: »

irishgoatman,
I sent an email to motortax@transport.ie.
In fairness to them they responded within a couple of hours to both my mails.
Ref. their request for copies of the original paperwork for the Revenue Commissioners, I explained that I did not have it to which they replied that they will contact the Revenue Commissioners themselves in relation to it.

The query seems to be being handled by a conscientious person

Hi niloc1951,
I decided not to go through my local motor tax office but to go down the same route as you.
It's taken 7 days and 2 emails but I have finally had a response which reads "I am having the matter checked at present and will be in touch with you when I have further information" and signed "Marian". I quoted EU directive 2007/46/ec of 5 September 2007, which has the same wording as the one you used, so that it didn't look as though we were working together. I also offered to return the original cert. Have you heard anything more?.

kitfit

Interesting discussion.
What about campers over 3,500kg? They need a C1 Licence to drive.
Are they exempt if classed as Camper?

Macspower

kitfit wrote: »

Interesting discussion.
What about campers over 3,500kg? They need a C1 Licence to drive.
Are they exempt if classed as Camper?

AFAIK you always needed a C1 licence for these

niloc1951

Any vehicle over plated between 3,500 kg and 7,500 kg requires a class C1 licence, any vehicle plated over 7,500 kg requires a C licence

kitfit

I know that about the licence, I'm wondering about the NCT/DOE aspect of a vehicle that is > 3,500kg

niloc1951

kitfit wrote: »

Interesting discussion.
What about campers over 3,500kg? They need a C1 Licence to drive.
Are they exempt if classed as Camper?

That's the question I answered.
See previous posts by me about the NCT/DOE issue.
At this point in time Irish legislation is open to be interpreted that 'motor caravans' are not required to be tested BUT under an European Directive they should be tested the same as a 'car' (NCT) irrespective of weight or size.
However the NCT haven't the physical facilities nor have the DOE cenrtres the appropriate test manual (NCT manual) in place at present to do the test.

rozi

i have just bought my first camper and the dealer had it mot'd for me. it is 00 and he said i have to have it done every year

Richie15

rozi wrote: »

The dealer had it mot'd for me ... and he said i have to have it done every year.

Of course he'd say that, if he's gonna be getting paid for it!

I think the entire thread can be summed up by saying that yes, you do need a test, but at the moment there's no proper system in place to do one. That right?

Slidey

I was told yesterday while attending a course that the RSA no longer needs tacho, speedlimiter, side markings or a weight and dimensions plate to be fitted to campers over 3500kg

niloc1951

Hi Slidey, was any mention made about frequency of test, according to the relevant EU DIRECTIVE, 2009/40/EC, motor caravans should be tested as follows Four years after the date on which the vehicle was first used, and thereafter every two years also is the cost as per DOE test or NCT test,I see no reason why it shouldn't be as per NCT test as the test criteria is the same as 'cars' according to the above Directive.

Malta1

Just to report that I taxed the van today and there was no mention of a DOE cert:D

Irishgoatman

Further my earlier postings regarding vehicle category as shown on registration certs. The department of transport at shannon asked me to return my cert. for ammendment but are now telling me that they are still "investigating as to the category of motor caravans". Perhaps they have realised that if they change the certs. to the correct E.U. classification they will no longer be able to tell us that we need a DOE !!.
I wonder how they will sort this one out. Watch this space.

Irishgoatman

Hi niloc1951,
Sorry, meant to ask how you got on with Shannon?

niloc1951

Irishgoatman wrote: »

The department of transport at shannon asked me to return my cert. for ammendment but are now telling me that they are still "investigating as to the category of motor caravans".

If they 'investigated' [font=&quot]Council Directive 70/156/EEC[/font], and/or [font=&quot]2001/116/EC[/font] it would help them out, the answer in contained in both, IN PLAIN ENGLISH

About my contact with Shannon.
Since 19th Oct. I haven't heard a word, 9th. Nov (4 days ago) I sent a follow up email requesting an update on the issue and have not had a reply to date. All seems to be gone mysteriously quiet. BTW they still have my cert.

Also, got a call last week from RSA, they are apparently putting together a review group to sort the mess and plan to complete before end of year (this year) :rolleyes:

Irishgoatman

niloc1951 wrote: »

If they 'investigated' [font=&quot]Council Directive 70/156/EEC[/font], and/or [font=&quot]2001/116/EC[/font] it would help them out, the answer in contained in both, IN PLAIN ENGLISH

About my contact with Shannon.
Since 19th Oct. I haven't heard a word, 9th. Nov (4 days ago) I sent a follow up email requesting an update on the issue and have not had a reply to date. All seems to be gone mysteriously quiet. BTW they still have my cert.

Also, got a call last week from RSA, they are apparently putting together a review group to sort the mess and plan to complete before end of year (this year) :rolleyes:

The directive I quoted was 2007/46/ec so they have plenty of information to work with so what's their problem?
The person I have been dealing with is MXXXXX* at the Computer services division and she is pretty good at replying to email.


*MODEDIT: I'd rather we didn't name third parties in public, thanks