Client unhappy with BER result

Independent

hi all i have completed an assessment for a client and he is not happy with the result, not sure how to handle this, i have done it to the best of my ability. Would anyone care to have a look at it for me?

sinnerboy

If you quote using the SEI standard form of wording - client has no leg to stand

Just double check your calcs . If you are satisfied - get legal on him .

Mellor

Can you give more details. His expected, the actual result. Any areas you are unsure about.

But generally, I'd say fuck him

SilverBER

Put as much detail as you can on the board to give us an idea. Either that or I'll have a look at it for you if you like.

sydthebeat

give us abrief description of the dwelling ie 1980's 125 sq m semi-d 2 storey... and what teh rating came in at... ie E1

Chimpster

Tricky situation.

Get another set of eyes to look at it before moving further. Once you are happy that the result is correct then tell him to jump.

I have had a good few cleints who wondered why their 1990's, electrically heated apartments were registering as E rated properties...

trad

I had a simular one where the rating was a D1 yet her neighbour got a C3. Turns out the neigbour had a new boiler fitted last year whereas my client had the origional 15 year old boiler. I explained the reason for the diffrence and I referred her to SEI. She rang them and then accepted the rating.

Smcgie

I had this problem before.. Its amazing how people will disagree with your rating. One that springs to mind is a house I gave a c3 rating and the man wad convinced because he had solar panels on his 1993 house that it should have been A. The best thing I find from then on is to explain to people that the average ratings area C,B's depending on house and that A1 is something that they will come nowhere near. Say that to clients before publishing the cert... Then there's no shock horror!

Independent

Thanks everbody for their replies. Here is a description of the property.
Built 1959, 2 storey stone, total floor area 46.94m2, Living area 23.47m2, all of ground floor is the living area, Heating and hot water is provided by a Grant outdoor combi 82.7% efficient, Heating controls = programmer & trv's, Thermal mass medium, 0% low energy light bulbs, U-values= roof insulated at rafter 0.35, roof insulated at joist 0.4, floor p/a 0.9 u-value 1.16, walls (640mm drylined) default to stone 2.1, doors/windows, double glazed default to 2.8 result was F, Energy value 431.61kwh/m2/yr, CO2 106.33kgco2/m2/yr. It does seem a poor rating for a property that appears to be cosy enough. I done two other apartments for the same guy that came in at D2's and he maintains the house is way easier to run.
Any advice or suggestions are much appreciated.

Jimbo

Seems poor enough alright.
Was the house not insulated when it was drylined?

I have had a similar situation where a client wouldn't accept the rating.

I just wrote them a lenghty letter giving my position on any isuues they had and quoting SEI.

Just make sure you have your facts rightr before putting them on paper.

Once you are confident enough in your assesment and as long as you got paid for your work, leave it at that.

Let the client go and pay for another assessor to verify your rating if they wish.

sinnerboy

Odd . Would not expect F . Check the water storage capacity .
If you made a mistake and entered 2000 litres not 200 litres- this would have a big impact
Also - check the 86% efficiency is entered for water heating not just space heating

Double check u values numerically . Decimal point in wrong place can muck things up

trad

IF the TFA is 46.94 sq m surely it is an exempted property?

Refund the fee and walk away, that's my advice.

Independent

Trad, i think your right, feel like an idiot now. I'm surprised NAS let it go through.

trad

Don't let it get to you, I did 3 properties for a client, gave a good price, half way through the second one I realised that it was a bungalow. Imagine a 2 bed modern bungalow only 45sqm. Never even crossed my mind, it does now.

sinnerboy

you could not be expected to know the building was less than 50 m2 before measuring up

just because a building is exempt does not mean a cert can not be produced if required

the most you should offer to refund is the sei fee part . the client may argue that he would "abort" before publishing if you informed of the 50m2 rule

but you had done as instructed up this point

don't be defensive over this

trad

Where's the ethics here? The property is an exempted property by law. The assessor made a mistake in not asking the owner for the TFA before undertaking the assessment. NAS should have picked up the issue regarding floor area and this should be addressed to SEI, at the very least it should have come up as an error code.

We are all now much more aware of this issue. Lesson learnt, refund the fee and the client has no cause for complaint. The assessor is out €25, we all make mistakes.

Jimbo

trad wrote: »

Where's the ethics here? The property is an exempted property by law. The assessor made a mistake in not asking the owner for the TFA before undertaking the assessment. NAS should have picked up the issue regarding floor area and this should be addressed to SEI, at the very least it should have come up as an error code.

We are all now much more aware of this issue. Lesson learnt, refund the fee and the client has no cause for complaint. The assessor is out €25, we all make mistakes.

That's not a mistake.
Why would you ask a client for the TFA? Most people wouldn't have a clue.

The OP did everything right up to the point when he calculated the area and should have realised it was exempt.

I'd say retain 50% of your fee for the callout and the measuring up and refund the remaining 50% and the €25 SEI fee.

Independent

Thanks alot guys for all your input and opinions. I haven't accepted payment for this cert so the client is not out of pocket. As somebody said i'm out 30 euros for printing. I too Trad won't make the same mistake again!!! I do feel it should of been flagged by NAS its kinda making me as a professional look a bit unprofessional having to go back to the client and tell him he did not need to have it done at all. Its not the end of the world but we don't need that kind of advertisement. Thanks again everybody.

trad

Direct from SI 666 / 2006

3. The provisions of these Regulations shall not apply to the following categories of buildings -


(a) a national monument for the purposes of the National Monuments Acts 1930 to 2004, including a recorded monument under the provisions of Section 12 of the National Monuments (Amendment) Act 1994 or a registered historic monument under the provisions of the Section 5 of the National Monuments (Amendment) Act 1987 ; or


(b) a protected structure or proposed protected structure within the meaning of the Planning and Development Acts 2000 to 2006; or


(c) a building used as a place of worship or for the religious activities of any religion; or


(d) a temporary building as defined in Classes 10 to 13 of the Third Schedule to the Building Regulations 1997 ( S.I. No 497 of 1997 ); or


(e) an industrial building not intended for human occupancy over extended periods and where the installed heating capacity does not exceed 10 W/m2; or


(f) a non-residential agricultural building where the installed heating capacity does not exceed 10 W/m2; or


(g) a stand alone building with a total useful floor area of less than 50m2.
That's the legislation on the matter. If you propose that we can operate outside the legislation in this case you can argue that we operate outside the legislation in every case that suits us to make a buck.

I think it is a genuine mistake and we can all learn from it.

Someone should address the matter to SEI that an exempted building can go through NAS undetected.

muffler

Independent wrote: »

Thanks alot guys for all your input and opinions. I haven't accepted payment for this cert so the client is not out of pocket. As somebody said i'm out 30 euros for printing. I too Trad won't make the same mistake again!!! I do feel it should of been flagged by NAS its kinda making me as a professional look a bit unprofessional having to go back to the client and tell him he did not need to have it done at all. Its not the end of the world but we don't need that kind of advertisement. Thanks again everybody.

Go back to the client and state the facts and tell them straight up that it was only in the latter stages that it emerged that it was exempt. Had you been given a full brief, including floor area, before visiting the house then you could have advised them differently. Ask for half of the fee or at the very least enough to cover the expenses and travel time.

sinnerboy

Certain domestic extensions are exempt from planning permission ( please lets not expand on this here )

Solicitors require an Architects Certificate of Exemption from Planning Permission at time of sale - much to many a punters surprise . They require a particular form of wording that was jointly composed by The Law Society and by the RIAI

Now ....

I am not aware of any protocol covering exemptions from BER . Solicitors when conveyancing will require some document . But which document ? Prepared by whom? ..... perhaps a BER cert ?

The BER cert the OP provided is valid . It will prove useful . It was executed diligently and in good faith .

The client should pay the agreed fee .

Gone Drinking

Walk away, lesson learned. This is the third place this guy has asked you to cert for him, he's a loyal customer it would seem. Charging half (regardless to weather or not you're entitled) will probably only end up losing yourself business and giving yourself a bad name.

Ps, i amn't a Ber person, but i work in the surveying industry.

sinnerboy

Alternatively - work for nothing and you will always have work

Chimpster

sinnerboy wrote: »

Alternatively - work for nothing and you will always have work

So lets be clear here.

If this dwelling was actually an apartment in a block of other apartments and the total usefull floor area was less than 50m2 then a cert would be required?

Its only if its a standalone building that its exempt?

I definitly remember doing a cert last xmas on a GF apartment and I remember the floor area being just over 40m2 and it never occured to me about this legislation.

Ahh well... Lets find out what the correct procedure is here and if I need to contact the client I will.

legs akimbo.

A couple of things that struck me with this were firstly the thermal mass category. Does it indeed check out to Medium as opposed to medium high.
I asked SEI if a thermal mass category previously high that was retro fitted drylined could then be classed as medium high or even medium ( if internal walls were stud or dot & dab)
Needless to say I got no reply to my two e mails.
Secondly if it was drylined then it should not be defaulted as 2.1 u value stone. the thermal resistance should have been calculated for stone and added to that of the dry line in order to attain a more accurate U value.
Lastly the living area fraction makes an enormous difference on a smaller property, if this was a majority percentage of the overall floor area it would have an impact on the rating.
Give the man his money back at the end of the day it was your mistake, you can not ignore that fact. The goodwill generated will stand you in good stead.

trad

My understanding of "stand alone" is that it is not a bed sit type of arrangement with shared facilities ie bathroom / kitchen etc. In other words an own door apartment.

SilverBER

My determinatioon of a stand alone building is a building that is standing alone, rather like those starter flats that people build in their back gardens. I would not regard an apartment in a block of apartments as a stand alone building. I dont pretend to be an authority though.

trad

SilverBER wrote: »

My determinatioon of a stand alone building is a building that is standing alone, rather like those starter flats that people build in their back gardens. I would not regard an apartment in a block of apartments as a stand alone building. I dont pretend to be an authority though.

Interesting, I took "building" to mean "dwelling", however, dwelling is defined in the Interpretation section of 666/2006 but building is not.

You might have a can of worms there silverber