SCANDALOUS!

Darlughda

What does this word mean to you?

Blashemy
Moral opinion on one's position in life?
The Angelus?
What is beyond belief?

in my HO

Blashemy = some slagging off your pet faith

Shameless? = ye scumbag knacker, c'mere til I bate ya between de ears

Angelus= Creepy adoration of pre pubescent females forced into the politics of sex

What is beyond belief= Diplomatic Unity of Roman Catholicism from an auld historical place back fadó fadó

Nerin

Darlughda wrote: »

What does this word mean to you?

Blashemy
Moral opinion on one's position in life?
The Angelus?
What is beyond belief?

in my HO

Blashemy = some slagging off your pet faith

Shameless? = ye scumbag knacker, c'mere til I bate ya between de ears

Angelus= Creepy adoration of pre pubescent females forced into the politics of sex

What is beyond belief= Diplomatic Unity of Roman Catholicism from an auld historical place back fadó fadó

Blasphemy: using the name of a god or gods as an expletive, insulting religions and sometimes their texts/idols/whatever.

Moral opinion on one's position in life? are you asking what peoples opinions are on their position in life is? like do you want an answer, as its not very clear.


Shameless? I dont see where this part fits in here.

The Angelus: Is to do with Gabriel (an angel) and Mary(Virgin mother of Jesus Christ, the Messiah of Christians), the incarnation of Jesus as God. You may get a more detailed response on the angelus over at the christianity forum.

What is beyond belief= Diplomatic Unity of Roman Catholicism from an auld historical place back fadó fadó

is this beyond belief to you? what are you actually trying to get across/ask/discuss, as you havent made it clear.

The charter and guidelines for this forum can be found here

hiorta

Blasphemy: a word that upsets some people supporting an artificial stance.
It is only a word.
Angelus: a splinter of doctrine of an unproven religion.

Beyond belief: Something not accepted as reasonable, but may eventually become so.
It was once thought 'unreasonable' to suggest that planet Earth wasn't flat.
In fact, you were in great and imminent danger of being set on fire by the thought
police.

Darlughda

My initial post is a mess, apologies, I hate reading rules but I understand why they are necessary.

I am interested in people's definition of blasphemy.
Thank you both for your responses.

To me, blasphemy is a medievel word, belonging to a time when it was a very dangerous thing to even consider the religious freedom to slag off some one else's faith, way of life or even opinions.

Ignoring the Angelus bells was once seen as scandalous blasphemy.
It still is, for many people.

I was under the impression that Ireland had become a tolerant country of all different faiths, definitions of Spirituality, atheisim, agnosticsm and justdon'tcare stands on life.

This tolerance seems to have finally exposed some of the real scandals hidden by our religious establishment.

Without the freedom to blaspheme, and have thoughts that others consider shameful, would these scandals remained a terrible crime, never spoken out and exposed?

Many Irish people consider themselves spiritual but not religious.

Sure, blasphemy is just a word, it has also has become law and I am concerned about the implications of this, not only in exposing corruption, but what people's thoughts are on blasphemy.

Nerin

As far as i'm aware (and don't take this as word of law) i think you'd have to do something pretty intense to be in trouble with the new blasphemy law. And as far as i know, its not the blasphemy that'll get you,its the vandalism,incitement of hatred,nudity,abuse etc that will be used.

I'll ask a more legal minded person to give you more info on the whole blasphemy law stuff

seamus

The key to this new blasphemy legislation is that when a complaint is made under the legislation, the prosecutor will be required to show that the person who "blasphemed" did so with the intention of outraging a significant number of people of that faith.

So simply stating your opinion or otherwise causing widespread offence through your general actions is not actionable as blasphemy under these new laws. So publishing, "God is a prick", isn't an actionable offence under the legislation unless it can shown that you said that with the intention of upsetting people (as opposed to actually believing the sentiment).

Darlughda

seamus wrote: »

The key to this new blasphemy legislation is that when a complaint is made under the legislation, the prosecutor will be required to show that the person who "blasphemed" did so with the intention of outraging a significant number of people of that faith.

So simply stating your opinion or otherwise causing widespread offence through your general actions is not actionable as blasphemy under these new laws. So publishing, "God is a prick", isn't an actionable offence under the legislation unless it can shown that you said that with the intention of upsetting people (as opposed to actually believing the sentiment).

So, the burden of proof lies with the prosecutor?

'The intention of outraging a significant number of people of that faith'.

This definitely does sound medieval to me, surely the prosecutors of the established religion could use this as an excuse to demonize and cause hatred of satirists, and critics and whoever else they fear as detractors?

Worse still, use the fear of god to silence voices?

Coriolanus

Well, our President has probably only just broken session with the Council of State on the matter of the laws constitutionality in the last few hours, so we'll see come morning whether it's going to be referred to the supreme court.

The law itself, well, I mainly object on principled grounds, not out of actual fear of being prosecuted. There's a variety of legal mumbo jumbo both for and against, the Minister saying he was constitionally obliged to legislate for the offense since it's mentioned specifically in the Bunreacht, other esteemed legal opinions holding that the right course was to hold a referendum to have it removed from the Bunreacht.
It is, in short, a pretty messy situation.

The thread on the matter over in A+A is rather more knowledable and... expansive, than I can be.

Edit: As to the burden of proof, no, it lies with the defendant. There are various defenses provisioned for. Motivation from political, scientific, satirical aims etc. But if a prosecution were brought (and some would argue that this would never happen, with the way the law is worded) then the burden of proof lies on the defendant that they were pursuing one of those aims. Or something...

Darlughda

Thanks for that, clarity seems to be scarce where Law and political decisions and debates are concerned, so I'll check out the A+A thread.

I really hate fudging of issues with words and legalese mumbo jumbo that seem design to confuse rather than inform people.

I personally don't have a fear of being prosecuted. But I do have a fear of repeated events from history where religion, spirituality, persecution, law and politics combine for terrible events people say can never happen

philologos

hiorta wrote: »

Angelus: a splinter of doctrine of an unproven religion.

As opposed to your spiritualism, and as opposed to atheism?

Darlughda

What a shame my first post came out a confused jumble, I am really interested in who considers themselves to be spiritual in Ireland.
Do you consider yourself to be spiritual?

Personally I like to change my ideas and notions of what I think and move about a bit. Keeps me from deluding myself from the crazy notion that I know what truth is.
A bit of atheism here, a couple of years of just don't care, maybe I'll join the masons next, nope they won't have me either.

The point is this religious tolerance is my freedom in this country, and I bet there are a lot of silent folk out there who are scared to death to discuss openly their fears about religion and that's just the Irish Catholics for starters

Coriolanus

Well, she signed it into law today, which is a damned shame.

Darlughda

Fair play to yez for not editing and putting different words in my mouth. This time.

The only fight I am looking for is with bullies who go around cursing people and making nationalistic hate jibes that is like just so last century.

Never assume you have a superior spirituality to me, or anyone else, learn some Irish history, Europeand and Post-colonialism while you are at it.

The only people I am going to swear at in my ancient language which would be bitter indeed on your lips are those who fear the curse of poverty.:eek:

Nerin

Darlughda wrote: »

Fair play to yez for not editing and putting different words in my mouth. This time.

The only fight I am looking for is with bullies who go around cursing people and making nationalistic hate jibes that is like just so last century.

Never assume you have a superior spirituality to me, or anyone else, learn some Irish history, Europeand and Post-colonialism while you are at it.

The only people I am going to swear at in my ancient language which would be bitter indeed on your lips are those who fear the curse of poverty.:eek:

eh, can you show me where this was done? i dont see it.

well then your fight isnt here.

again, i dont see where this has happened.

can you elaborate, this line makes no sense to me.

Darlughda

Okay

Here is my humble opinion, just one voice.

I don't want to force my ideas of spirituality down anybodys throat.
I prefer to have fun and enjoy life.
Lucky me that I wasn't born poor and ended up in the hands of spiritual bullies. Maybe you are Christian, and are furious at the hatred being poured on the lot of you for the 'sins' of the few.

Everyone is entitled to choose their own path, in their own time and their own way. If you don't want to walk a path so what, why are you letting other people force you to follow their crazy cult, religion or whatever your having yourself.

Just my tuppence for the now

Nevyn

Darlughda wrote: »

The full story on pagans' website.....if you dare

What website are you referring to?

Darlughda wrote: »

Okay

Here is my humble opinion, just one voice.

I don't want to force my ideas of spirituality down anybodys throat.

But yet you are with the next line.

Darlughda wrote: »

Maybe you are Christian, and are furious at the hatred being poured on the lot of you for the 'sins' of the few.

Why are you giving out about christians or asssumng that those posting here are christain? This is not the christianity forum.

Just because people do not agree with you does not make them christian and part of some theocracy or pressed by theocracy.

Darlughda wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to choose their own path, in their own time and their own way.

Absolutely.

Darlughda wrote: »

If you don't want to walk a path so what, why are you letting other people force you to follow their crazy cult, religion or whatever your having yourself.

Please show how/where that is happening on this forum?

I think you will find most of the posters are either on their own spiritual explorations and for some people christianity works for them, it makes them happy, meets their needs and fills their spiritual cup and who am I or indeed who are you to say that is wrong.

Darlughda

I'm referring to no particular website, I was being silly.
You have no idea of what Spirituality is to me.
You have no idea what I consider blasphemy or outrage.
The burden of proof lies with the defendant.
How I prove that my intent is not to outrage a significant number of people of that faith?

Spiritual bullies trade on this kind of fear
I have no beef with any body's idea of spirituality or religioin
I just don't want to hear them banging on about finding your little corners and huddling to convince each other they are on the path and they have proof.

The fact is everyone is furious we are the laughing stock of Europe
We always have been. Big Deal.

Lets get back to the real issues, like giving people the courage to break through their fears and superstitions IF that is what the Spiritual Bullies trade on.

We are a bit late in fairness in this country catching up with the age of reason and enlightment.

I have always considered people of non-protelyzing paths to be friends of mine. I was treated with more respect by the atheists.

I was outraged at the blasphemy shown to me on your site and the cursing. I just gave back what I got.

togster

WHAT IS YOUR POINT????

Nerin

Darlughda wrote: »

Maybe you are Christian, and are furious at the hatred being poured on the lot of you for the 'sins' of the few.

Nope Pagan.

Darlughda wrote: »

I was outraged at the blasphemy shown to me on your site and the cursing. I just gave back what I got.

The Helpdesk forum is the proper route to make complaints on this website.

If you've a problem with posts you press the report post button.

Youre not adding anything to this discussion,as far as i can see people aren't attacking you,some are disagreeing and some are struggling to understand what you are trying to say.

In future,try and write what you are trying to say clearly and in points,as the rambling over different topics is confusing people.

This thread has a very short lifespan if it doesn't start going somewhere.

Again,the links to the boards faq and links to how to make a complaint are in my signature.

Now,please, back on topic.

Darlughda

Look it, let the thread close if you want. The Blasphemy law sounded to me like an attempt at spiritual manipulation. Maybe it will yet be used for that purpose, who knows?

There has been enough religious persecution in this world and it doesn't look like its going to end soon.

I felt it was an attempt to criminalize those who expose corruption and abuse.

I thought getting offended by what you hold sacred based on cliché and superstition was going a bit far.

Until I felt so offended myself yesterday, by experiencing blasphemy of what I hold sacred. Fair enough, brought it on myself, but my intent was not malicious, although I can see now how it appeared.

philologos

Darlugha: You're ignoring the fact that most of the Christians opposed the blasphemy law. I think that's where you are being a bit disingenous. People don't seem to realise that there is the potential for this law to be used against Christians too if they speak about other religions. I disagree with your slating of Christians as mere "bullies".

Infact when the Christians discussed this, many expressed concern:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055551680

No Christians asked for this, no church was consulted.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0501/1224245756970.html

What a shame my first post came out a confused jumble, I am really interested in who considers themselves to be spiritual in Ireland.
Do you consider yourself to be spiritual?

As for this, yes, I consider myself to be both spiritual and Christian, they are not mutually exclusive.

Darlughda

Hia Jackass

I'm aware your religion was opposing the blasphemy bill.

I was alarmed at it, because of the criminal aspect.

Proselytizng religions, not necessarily yours, could and do abuse this.

I am concerned about the potential of cults growing here, as we all know Religion can be big business.

Not to mention the protected position the Vatican has got going on here, and there are many, many spritually damaged people in Ireland as a result of their torture of children whose only crime was poverty.

There are some amazing Christians and Roman Catholics who do great work and they should be protected from harm.

But Spiritual bullies and intolerance have a habit of fouling up decent religions.

The unfortunate scrap I had with another religious group is not contained in its entirety on this thread.

Nerin

closed as requested