De Beers in Shannon to lay off 370 jobs

Run_to_da_hills

Not good news at all, know a few working there.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0722/elementsix.html

Keano

It is not good news.

I worked for another large company that had been in Shannon for 30 years and it too closed in the last year.

The industrial estate in Shannon is becoming a ghost town. Sad times.

buck65

Where does it all end?

Keano

buck65 wrote: »

Where does it all end?

I too would love to know.

Probably when the country is on its knee's.

drunken_munky52

Shocking. Having a job in De Beers used to be the creme de la creme, considered the Intel or Google of its time. This is truly siesmic for such an icon of the midwest.

force eleven

buck65 wrote: »

Where does it all end?

It doesn't. Better emigrate. With NAMA we'll be financially crippled for the next 20 years, no spending, no incentives. We're a small country and cannot simply lift ourselves out of this hole in a short space of time.

IMF will be here soon, that may be a good thing.:mad:

Clareman

Shannon is in trouble there's no doubt about it, 2 of the biggest sites in the industrial estate are now gone, used to be all the hurlers and footballers worked there, it used to be the place to work, sad times

kfish2oo2

The remaining part of Element 6 (the R&D section) will remain in operation for maybe 18 months or so, at which point it will most likely shift that to another country. Element 6 has always given its workers excellent wages and severances packages, but now that they can't afford to do so anymore they're being attacked rather aggressively by the unions, despite the fact that their lower packages are actually higher than that which is required by law. Its sad to see the unions around Ireland demanding more money in the one time that everyone, at every level, has to buckle down and take some cuts.

Keano

kfish2oo2 wrote: »

The remaining part of Element 6 (the R&D section) will remain in operation for maybe 18 months or so, at which point it will most likely shift that to another country. Element 6 has always given its workers excellent wages and severances packages, but now that they can't afford to do so anymore they're being attacked rather aggressively by the unions, despite the fact that their lower packages are actually higher than that which is required by law. Its sad to see the unions around Ireland demanding more money in the one time that everyone, at every level, has to buckle down and take some cuts.

The can afford it. They simply do not want to pay it.

Run_to_da_hills

Chatting to my mate on the floor this morning, Production has now come to a complete stand since the news. lads walking around aimlessly, foremen not giving a toss anymore, mate told not to go near a machine.

I wouldn't blame them as management is only offering them a pittence for a redundancy package. Just one week plus statutory. It was 6 weeks on the contract. The Unions said they would be lucky if they got 3 weeks. Not good and they expect a rocky road for the remainder of their six months employment.

kfish2oo2

Keano A Legend wrote: »

The can afford it. They simply do not want to pay it.

On what information are you basing this? They made a €9 million loss last year. How the hell are they supposed to afford huge payoffs when they're currently running at a loss? People hear the word "diamond" and assume they make those pretty little rings worth a couple of grand, but thats a total misconception. Element 6 makes industrial diamonds. They go on concrete saws, drill bits... 50 odd grams of these things are worth a few cents, literally. Element 6 is almost solely dependent on the oil drilling industry, and in case you hadn't noticed, the worlds gone to ****. No one can afford to drill for new oil anymore, renewable energy is cutting into the oil industry (not that that isn't a good thing) and Chinese industrial diamond manufacturers are tearing into the market like wildfire. Competitiveness is essential in this industry, and they simply can't afford to operate in Ireland anymore, which has some of the highest wages (and costs of living) on the planet.

The people of Ireland need to wake the **** up. We've had things handed to us on a silver platter. We've had 15 years or extremely aggressive growth and expansion, our wages and quality of living has skyrocketed, the EU's been throwing money at us... We've had a dream run, but like every other country in the world things have gone to crap. We need to buckle up, accept the fact that hardly anyone is actually making a profit anymore and fix the broken aspects of our business models. Until we can do this, companies like Element 6, which for years have remained staples in Irish life, are going to disappear.

Keano

On common sense.

They may have made a loss this year but what about the profits for the last 30 years? To give someone who has given 20+ years service 20 weeks pay for their service is just deplorable.

kfish2oo2

Keano A Legend wrote: »

On common sense.

They may have made a loss this year but what about the profits for the last 30 years? To give someone who has given 20+ years service 20 weeks pay for their service is just deplorable.

You really have no concept of how a business works do you? Profits are used to pay employees and shareholders, and then reinvested into the company. It doesn't go into some magical bank account where they can grab it whenever needed. I agree with you 100%, it is deplorable to pay someone with 20 years service a package of only 20 weeks, but that is, in fact, more than the government set minimum. The issue isn't in Element Six, but in the governments rules.

Keano

To answer your first question yes I do. I have no doubt the decision was made last year so would have ben included into this years budget so they have the cash.

Yes it is a government issue, but for a large multinational to offer 1 week is worse again. Talk about kicking people when they are down...

loctite

Lads bickering over the severence package offered is going to get nobody anywhere. IMO it is that attitude that "they can afford it" which has fueled unions to seek higher wages and contribute to the increase in costs for employers.

The fact is, Ireland is uncompetetive, and until such a time as we become more productive and cost effective, this is going to become the norm. This is going to have a huge impact in the mid west affecting more than just the persons who have been laid off and their families.

I am genuinely scared for the future of the mid west.

kfish2oo2

Keano A Legend wrote: »

To answer your first question yes I do. I have no doubt the decision was made last year so would have ben included into this years budget so they have the cash.

Yes it is a government issue, but for a large multinational to offer 1 week is worse again. Talk about kicking people when they are down...

It most definitely was not. Even people in upper management are reeling from this move. In all likelihood it was decided only a few weeks ago, at the annual exec meeting in Luxembourg.

Also, the severance deal is most likely the brain child of one of the new execs. Nasty, selfish and bigoted people from all accounts.

Max001

SIPTU, as the shopfloor lead union on site and specifically the SIPTU Shannon Industrial Branch, let their members down extremely badly in the case of Element Six.

In the past and for many years its been possible for unions and company to conduct negotiations professionally and successfully, which until recently has kept the plant competitive.

The very, very sad fact is, that this weeks outcome need not have happened and the failure of SIPTU branch officials to engage constructively has cost hundreds of high calibre people their jobs.

Its true that the country has become less competitive in recent years as a place for inward investors, but Element Six as a company had a huge commercial and emotional commitment to the Shannon site.

I am a fair minded and reasonably objective person in most respects, however in this case I have no doubts, most if not all of the fault in this case, lies with the SIPTU Shannon Industrial Branch and there's a particular person there who should hang her head in shame, for ever more.

My heart goes out to all the hard working and extremely decent people in Element Six who have lost their jobs recently and who will lose their jobs between now and Christmas.

This tradegy need not have happened!

Clareman

Here comes a mini rant of mine, I do apologize in advance.

Ireland will never be able to compete in manufacturing again, the fact of the matter is that labor costs are just way way way too high. Most companies that are closing have been in place for a long time, say someone started 20 years ago on 10k, give them an extra 500 a year as well as 5% increase, that means that their salary would be almost 44k now, no one can pay that for a base manufacturing job.

The argument that companies could afford in the past is a terrible argument, companies don't keep much money around to pay off people, companies are there to make money, same as people are there to get a wage, not for the benefit of the company. People milked the company for long enough, I for 1 have 2 blue iron boxes from De Beers in my shed for storing things in.

We can blame a lot of things, we can blame multi nationals, we can blame the government, we can blame a lot of things, but in essence, it's peoples inheritant greed that caused every problem we are in, unfortunetly there's no light at the end of the tunnel, Element 6 and the GPA sites being empty in Shannon will turn the place into a ghost town

Run_to_da_hills

Clareman wrote: »

Here comes a mini rant of mine, I do apologize in advance.

Ireland will never be able to compete in manufacturing again, the fact of the matter is that labor costs are just way way way too high. Most companies that are closing have been in place for a long time, say someone started 20 years ago on 10k, give them an extra 500 a year as well as 5% increase, that means that their salary would be almost 44k now, no one can pay that for a base manufacturing job.

The argument that companies could afford in the past is a terrible argument, companies don't keep much money around to pay off people, companies are there to make money, same as people are there to get a wage, not for the benefit of the company. People milked the company for long enough, I for 1 have 2 blue iron boxes from De Beers in my shed for storing things in.

We can blame a lot of things, we can blame multi nationals, we can blame the government, we can blame a lot of things, but in essence, it's peoples inheritant greed that caused every problem we are in, unfortunetly there's no light at the end of the tunnel, Element 6 and the GPA sites being empty in Shannon will turn the place into a ghost town

I was just chatting to a guy on line from Lodz Poland. He turned down work at the assembly line in the new Dell factory there. Dell are offering €400 to €500 a month FFS, thats half of what we get on the scratch and he says they have no probs filling those vacancies.

As O'Leary predicted, "there will be tumbleweed on the runways at Shannon by next Spring", it looks now as if this will spread across the road to the industrial.estate. :eek:

irishturkey

So here's the latest from the inside...

This is where the new HR manager has really has come into his own. If we were getting treated fairly, I'd nearly admire him. After the announcement on Wednesday of last week, a 5 man team went to London to plead Shannon's case. CEO Cyrus Jilla told them to come back with a sustainability plan for the next 5 years minimum. So on Wednesday of this week, the workers were briefed on where we now stand. The plan is being put together as we speak and the same team will return to London next week to hand in their plan. They've told us they won't be returning to Ireland without a definitive answer on Shannon's future, no matter how long it takes. Now just think about all this... last week Shannon had to go. A week later it may not have to happen.

The head of distribution was one of the 80 people being kept on. This despite the fact that the distribution dept was part of the 370 to go. The production planner was being kept on, despite production in Shannon coming to a finish by year end. Anyone smell a fish? The new Operations Manager who was supposedly being let go, claimed to know nothing of the announcement. When briefing us during the week on the trip to London, he said he knew on the Tuesday evening that production and distribution were gone.

So all of a sudden, they're very confident of going to London next week and coming back with a number of jobs, a number in triple digits.

My theory? Shannon was never in doubt. They've used scare tactics to brilliant effect. They've left us backed up against a wall. They'll come back with 150-200 jobs next week but "due to financial constraints, workers will have to have their terms and conditions reviewed". I hope I'm wrong but I don't see it. If you don't like the term and conditions you'll be offered a package to go. I do believe they'll increase it from 0.68 of a week per year. Possibly to 2 or 3 weeks, maybe even 4 if we're lucky. But here's the beauty of their plan. They know how upset people are by all of this. There's people that just want out now. But if they go they'll have to take a hit, if they stay, again, they'll have to take a hit in wages. What option do you have? You could protest to the media... with the result that the company say, "we can't afford any more negative publicity, so its back to square one, we're off to China", or "we offered them jobs, we did all we could, they're being ungrateful". You see the result? The workers who are being screwed are left looking like ungrateful bastards while the management come out smelling of roses.

They've been in contact with Tanaste Mary Coughlan and she's promised her full support for their plan. She's promised the full backing of the IDA and all agencies under her control.

I was reading the Star yesterday and in the editorial it said the management in Shannon are to be commended for their perseverence and maybe the rest of the country could learn from them. Bull****!!

So when its announced towards the end of this week that the mangement have saved x amount of jobs, and they're getting accolades from the government for working so hard, just remember all I've written here. This plan was a preconcieved to cut costs, cut wages and make the people who built that company look like mercenaries.

Whatever kind of job they offer me, I won't be taking it. I have some pride. Some dignity. I won't be selling out. I realise I'll come across as a fool, a stubborn idiot who's holding out for more than I'm worth, thats just me. I know there's more people ready to walk once they're offered a package that reflects the effort they've put in over the years. Element 6 have treated us with total and utter contempt. We won't be believed by the media, its easier to just pick a good guy/bad guy and run with that story. My manager was asked by his boss to try and drive us on a bit and get some work done. His response..."Just give me my fcuking money and let me go".

Indicative of the attitude. I won't be surprised if they can't fill all the jobs they come back with. Let the abuse begin... I know I'm a mercenary,a greedy so and so

Max001

I think this is whats called an 'Irish solution'

Much heat from both sides and not so much
light.....then when all seems lost, a solution
is found that enables all parties to claim some
portion of victory/save face. Whats that saying
about defeat being an orphan and victory having
many fathers ?

If people who have to lose their jobs or choose
to go, get better terms, good for them. If the
people who remain retain their jobs, even though
they lose something in their terms and conditions,
thats their choice.

So far as I know, the continued viability of the
pension fund, depends on the viability of the
Shannon operation, so its continuing helps
pensioners and future pensioners.

The company and specifically the site management
have taken dogs abuse from SIPTU shop stewards
and in particular from the branch official for years
now and I for one am not surprised the company's
patience ran out.

I'd still contend that all the unnecessary anguish of
the past few weeks could have been avoided by a less
confrontational approach by SIPTU and SIPTU was
told years ago that the Shannon site faced major
competitiveness issues soon, but these warnings
were ignored.

Nothing that you've said is wrong IrishTurkey and I believe
most of what I've said is also pretty accurate. We're
looking at this thing from slightly different perspectives
is all

loctite

irishturkey wrote: »

I won't be surprised if they can't fill all the jobs they come back with.

Somehow I doubt it... its an employer's market now..

irishturkey

irishturkey wrote: »

This is where the new HR manager has really has come into his own. If we were getting treated fairly, I'd nearly admire him. After the announcement on Wednesday of last week, a 5 man team went to London to plead Shannon's case. CEO Cyrus Jilla told them to come back with a sustainability plan for the next 5 years minimum. So on Wednesday of this week, the workers were briefed on where we now stand. The plan is being put together as we speak and the same team will return to London next week to hand in their plan. They've told us they won't be returning to Ireland without a definitive answer on Shannon's future, no matter how long it takes. Now just think about all this... last week Shannon had to go. A week later it may not have to happen.

The head of distribution was one of the 80 people being kept on. This despite the fact that the distribution dept was part of the 370 to go. The production planner was being kept on, despite production in Shannon coming to a finish by year end. Anyone smell a fish? The new Operations Manager who was supposedly being let go, claimed to know nothing of the announcement. When briefing us during the week on the trip to London, he said he knew on the Tuesday evening that production and distribution were gone.

So all of a sudden, they're very confident of going to London next week and coming back with a number of jobs, a number in triple digits.

My theory? Shannon was never in doubt. They've used scare tactics to brilliant effect. They've left us backed up against a wall. They'll come back with 150-200 jobs next week but "due to financial constraints, workers will have to have their terms and conditions reviewed". I hope I'm wrong but I don't see it. If you don't like the term and conditions you'll be offered a package to go. I do believe they'll increase it from 0.68 of a week per year. Possibly to 2 or 3 weeks, maybe even 4 if we're lucky. But here's the beauty of their plan. They know how upset people are by all of this. There's people that just want out now. But if they go they'll have to take a hit, if they stay, again, they'll have to take a hit in wages. What option do you have? You could protest to the media... with the result that the company say, "we can't afford any more negative publicity, so its back to square one, we're off to China", or "we offered them jobs, we did all we could, they're being ungrateful". You see the result? The workers who are being screwed are left looking like ungrateful bastards while the management come out smelling of roses.

They've been in contact with Tanaste Mary Coughlan and she's promised her full support for their plan. She's promised the full backing of the IDA and all agencies under her control.

I was reading the Star yesterday and in the editorial it said the management in Shannon are to be commended for their perseverence and maybe the rest of the country could learn from them. Bull****!!

So when its announced towards the end of this week that the mangement have saved x amount of jobs, and they're getting accolades from the government for working so hard, just remember all I've written here. This plan was a preconcieved to cut costs, cut wages and make the people who built that company look like mercenaries.

Whatever kind of job they offer me, I won't be taking it. I have some pride. Some dignity. I won't be selling out. I realise I'll come across as a fool, a stubborn idiot who's holding out for more than I'm worth, thats just me. I know there's more people ready to walk once they're offered a package that reflects the effort they've put in over the years. Element 6 have treated us with total and utter contempt. We won't be believed by the media, its easier to just pick a good guy/bad guy and run with that story. My manager was asked by his boss to try and drive us on a bit and get some work done. His response..."Just give me my fcuking money and let me go".

I was wrong about one thing. They're going to make us re-apply for our own jobs. Is that not laughable? Some arse lickers are going to be straight to the head of the queue despite only being in the door because when their supervisor says "time to bend over", sure enough they do as they're told despite the consequences. Whereas anybody who has the cojones, or stupidity, you decide, to stand up for themselves is going to be shown the door.

Sickening. Utterly sickening. And watch as the HR manager rides away into the sunset with his wallet fattened, while we get left to choose between being ridden by the company or ridden by the government.

Gruffalo

irishturkey wrote: »

I was wrong about one thing. They're going to make us re-apply for our own jobs. Is that not laughable? Some arse lickers are going to be straight to the head of the queue despite only being in the door because when their supervisor says "time to bend over", sure enough they do as they're told despite the consequences. Whereas anybody who has the cojones, or stupidity, you decide, to stand up for themselves is going to be shown the door.

Sickening. Utterly sickening. And watch as the HR manager rides away into the sunset with his wallet fattened, while we get left to choose between being ridden by the company or ridden by the government.

Stand your ground mate. Don't let them walk all over ya.

oh well

Element 6 or any other company is under absolutely no obligation to provide anything other than the statutory redundancy and while maybe they can or cannot afford it, it doesn't matter a dam. Just because they've been here for many years, got loads in grants, or whatever you happen to mention, they don't "owe" anyone anything - except their shareholders. Certainly when big multinationals close plants in rest of the world, there is nothing like the redundancy packages that Ireland seems to expect. If the workers can negotiate anything better for themselves, well fair play but we badly need to get away from the attitude that we are entitled to it. Our costs are astromonical, cheaper labour and transport overseas is going to win out for companies who only wish to answer to their large shareholders.

My job is down to 2 half days a week - if I get redundancy I'll only get the absolutely statutory minimum but theren't no point in me complaining or looking for more. I do a job, I get paid for that job - anything over and above that is a bonus which is at the absolute descretion of the employer. Even if my employer makes a massive profit and gets to live the high life thats still his/her perogatitive. Ya, sure I'd love him/her to share it with me, but guess what - thats life.

by the way - multinationals often make people apply for their own jobs and to justify their jobs - review time every year is basically that.

Gruffalo

oh well wrote: »

Element 6 or any other company is under absolutely no obligation to provide anything other than the statutory redundancy and while maybe they can or cannot afford it, it doesn't matter a dam. Just because they've been here for many years, got loads in grants, or whatever you happen to mention, they don't "owe" anyone anything - except their shareholders. Certainly when big multinationals close plants in rest of the world, there is nothing like the redundancy packages that Ireland seems to expect. If the workers can negotiate anything better for themselves, well fair play but we badly need to get away from the attitude that we are entitled to it. Our costs are astromonical, cheaper labour and transport overseas is going to win out for companies who only wish to answer to their large shareholders.

My job is down to 2 half days a week - if I get redundancy I'll only get the absolutely statutory minimum but theren't no point in me complaining or looking for more. I do a job, I get paid for that job - anything over and above that is a bonus which is at the absolute descretion of the employer. Even if my employer makes a massive profit and gets to live the high life thats still his/her perogatitive. Ya, sure I'd love him/her to share it with me, but guess what - thats life.

by the way - multinationals often make people apply for their own jobs and to justify their jobs - review time every year is basically that.

I understand your point about obligations but lest we forget, if it was not for workers standing up and fighting for fair treatment, we not even have those obligations. Workers always have the right to stand up and fight for a better deal and that is something I will always support.

oh well

absolutely right Gruffalo - of course everyone can stand up and fight but at a certain point sometimes the worker, or the Union in alot of cases, has to stand down and protect some jobs instead of losing all jobs. Too many times we've seen it happen in Ireland that instead of accepting a package/deal, workers have voted themselves out of jobs.

Gruffalo

oh well wrote: »

absolutely right Gruffalo - of course everyone can stand up and fight but at a certain point sometimes the worker, or the Union in alot of cases, has to stand down and protect some jobs instead of losing all jobs. Too many times we've seen it happen in Ireland that instead of accepting a package/deal, workers have voted themselves out of jobs.

Compromise is certainly essential during these negotiation processes but I dont think it is necessary to jump in and accept everything straight away. That's just my view.

irishturkey

oh well wrote: »

Element 6 or any other company is under absolutely no obligation to provide anything other than the statutory redundancy and while maybe they can or cannot afford it, it doesn't matter a dam. Just because they've been here for many years, got loads in grants, or whatever you happen to mention, they don't "owe" anyone anything - except their shareholders. Certainly when big multinationals close plants in rest of the world, there is nothing like the redundancy packages that Ireland seems to expect. If the workers can negotiate anything better for themselves, well fair play but we badly need to get away from the attitude that we are entitled to it. Our costs are astromonical, cheaper labour and transport overseas is going to win out for companies who only wish to answer to their large shareholders.

My job is down to 2 half days a week - if I get redundancy I'll only get the absolutely statutory minimum but theren't no point in me complaining or looking for more. I do a job, I get paid for that job - anything over and above that is a bonus which is at the absolute descretion of the employer. Even if my employer makes a massive profit and gets to live the high life thats still his/her perogatitive. Ya, sure I'd love him/her to share it with me, but guess what - thats life.

by the way - multinationals often make people apply for their own jobs and to justify their jobs - review time every year is basically that.

Is it common practice to take a pay cut, give up health insurance contributions, take a pay cut, work harder as part of these reviews? Rarely I'd imagine.. except when theres a need to scare people into taking miserly redundancy packages. Go on... lambast me for being greedy and unrealistic. Call me a "celtic cub". I would have always been of the same mind. But seeing how these companies operate as I'm seeing now and you'll realise that the media portrayal isn't always as accurate as it should be. They have half the information needed. They disregard what suits them. I've posted this example here before but I'll do it again... Last January two men collected on their redundancy. Between the two of them they took €1 million out of Element Six. So they decide they want another 370 gone and offer €6.5 million between them. In a superb piece of spin doctoring they "save" 163 jobs, scrounge a couple of million from Mary Coughlan and tell her its for training and upskilling and the redundancy package is increased. But the previous cap of 2.5 years salary is reduced to 1 years salary. Somehow the media forgot to mention that bit. One supervisor with 33 years service is going to lose out on about €80,000 because of this cap. His pension fund is also going to be decimated to a point where previously he would have earned a good living for a retiree, now he's going to be on the scrounge like the rest of us.

So please, not just you Oh Well, but everybody, get the facts, find out whats actually happening inside before making comments that are ridiculously insulting and wide of the mark. 6 weeks redundancy plus 2 weeks statutory has been common practice in Element Six/De Beers for years, they aren't all of a sudden on their knees and begging for contributions in the town centre.:mad:

No. 11

Gruffalo wrote: »

Compromise is certainly essential during these negotiation processes but I dont think it is necessary to jump in and accept everything straight away. That's just my view.

And what would such a compromise entail? Some combination of a cut in wages, the slashing of conditions, or a stingy redundancy in a barren jobs market no doubt.

But why should the workers compromise when they have De Beers, to put it crudely, by the short and curlies? E6 don't appear to be able to move production overseas, they need the Shannon workers and their expertise. Given the huge value of the products, materials and machinery inside the plant, the workers could bring De Beers to their knees if they were to, say, occupy the plant.

Now, while the company have been able to swing much of the media behind them by exploiting their ignorance and by appearing to act in good faith by coming back with this "offer", the reality is it has no bearing on the real balance of strength. The workers can quite easily regain the initiative if they act decisively.

By offering workers the prospect of some work they're blatantly engaged in a strategy of divide and rule. While it's understandable why some would be inclined to step forward and accept these new reduced conditions, it should be emphasised that this would just be the beginning. That if they were to get away with this the workers who remained would be in a severely weakened position and liable to be made to accept further cuts in the very near future, but that if workers make a stand the company will think twice before making another attempt on their conditions.

The broader consequences of this dispute are also evidenced by the recent statement by the President of the Limerick Chamber of Commerce in response to the E6 jobs slaughter where he called for a 20% pay cut for all wages across the board. In order to protect their profit margins they are willing to force the rest of us to work for less at a time when the price of essentials, such as electricity and fuel, continue to rise.

They want us to work for poverty wages so as to protect their cushions. We shouldn't accept this and we certainly shouldn't compromise with this mentality. The more pay is slashed, the less money people have to spend. Such measures may protect their profits for a time but it will only serve to further deepen the downwards spiral of the general economy.

This is a profitable company - workers should demand that De Beers takes the hit to its profit margin in order to repay its workforce for all the years of service and billions they generated for them. The most important thing for workers to do now is to regain the initiative by going on the offensive. E6 have bared their teeth already and shown how low they're willing to stoop. Workers should have absolutely no qualms about taking the fight to them.

mikemac

No. 11 wrote: »

They want us to work for poverty wages so as to protect their cushions.

Wouldn't you say that's going a bit too far.
Your post mentioned a 20% cut. Harsh but it isn't poverty wages

No. 11

mikemac wrote: »

Wouldn't you say that's going a bit too far.
Your post mentioned a 20% cut. Harsh but it isn't poverty wages

The consumer price index for June this year shows that the cost of electricity has gone up 4.7%, natural gas 6.5%, hospital services 9.1%, childcare 6.4% and so on and so on.

Basically, the cost of goods that working class people spend a large portion of their income on continues to rise.

Talk of a 20% cut to an average wage that is already, according to the OECD, 40% below that of the average British wage is just not on.

asmobhosca

No. 11 wrote: »

The consumer price index for June this year shows that the cost of electricity has gone up 4.7%, natural gas 6.5%, hospital services 9.1%, childcare 6.4% and so on and so on.

Basically, the cost of goods that working class people spend a large portion of their income on continues to rise.

Talk of a 20% cut to an average wage that is already, according to the OECD, 40% below that of the average British wage is just not on.

Sorry but could you please give a link or reference to the OECD report you quote?
This is a statistic I've never heard before and I'd like to see the report in question and how it was calculated just out of curiosity.
Thanks


Also over the past year the cost of electricity and gas has fallen not risen, although it may have risen again in June it is still at a cheaper level than it was 18 months ago

No. 11

The OECD don't make their reports available for casual browsing afaik, but here's a report in the Indo on it:

The report finds that Irish workers are far from the richest in the OECD, as is sometimes claimed based on output figures.

When price differences are taken into account, a single average worker had net income of $24,500 in 2005, slightly below the Eu-15 average and 40pc below the UK estimate of $34,300.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ireland-ranks-well-for-high-wages-low-tax-47454.html

And the CPI report from the CSO for June 2009 tells us that in the last 12 months the cost of...

Electricity is up 4.7%
Natural Gas is up 6.5%
Bottled Gas is up 10.1%
Solid Fuels is up 13.5%
Doctors Fees is up 2.2%
Dental Services is up 2.3%
Hospital Services is up 9.1%
Rail Transport is up 9.0%
Bus Fares is up 10.9%
Taxi Fares is up 8.2%
Primary Education is up 7.6%
Second Level Education is up 7.1%
Third Level Education is up 4.7%
Childcare is up 6.4%
Insurance is up 19.2%
and prices in Canteens are up 6.7%.

On top of that, the Harmonised Index of Consumer Prices increased by 1.8% between July 2007 and June of this year.

Gruffalo

No. 11 wrote: »

And what would such a compromise entail? Some combination of a cut in wages, the slashing of conditions, or a stingy redundancy in a barren jobs market no doubt.

But why should the workers compromise when they have De Beers, to put it crudely, by the short and curlies? E6 don't appear to be able to move production overseas, they need the Shannon workers and their expertise. Given the huge value of the products, materials and machinery inside the plant, the workers could bring De Beers to their knees if they were to, say, occupy the plant.

Now, while the company have been able to swing much of the media behind them by exploiting their ignorance and by appearing to act in good faith by coming back with this "offer", the reality is it has no bearing on the real balance of strength. The workers can quite easily regain the initiative if they act decisively.

By offering workers the prospect of some work they're blatantly engaged in a strategy of divide and rule. While it's understandable why some would be inclined to step forward and accept these new reduced conditions, it should be emphasised that this would just be the beginning. That if they were to get away with this the workers who remained would be in a severely weakened position and liable to be made to accept further cuts in the very near future, but that if workers make a stand the company will think twice before making another attempt on their conditions.

The broader consequences of this dispute are also evidenced by the recent statement by the President of the Limerick Chamber of Commerce in response to the E6 jobs slaughter where he called for a 20% pay cut for all wages across the board. In order to protect their profit margins they are willing to force the rest of us to work for less at a time when the price of essentials, such as electricity and fuel, continue to rise.

They want us to work for poverty wages so as to protect their cushions. We shouldn't accept this and we certainly shouldn't compromise with this mentality. The more pay is slashed, the less money people have to spend. Such measures may protect their profits for a time but it will only serve to further deepen the downwards spiral of the general economy.

This is a profitable company - workers should demand that De Beers takes the hit to its profit margin in order to repay its workforce for all the years of service and billions they generated for them. The most important thing for workers to do now is to regain the initiative by going on the offensive. E6 have bared their teeth already and shown how low they're willing to stoop. Workers should have absolutely no qualms about taking the fight to them.

With all due respect, I said a compromise is an essential part of negotiation. I didn't say what that compromise should be and considering I am not involved in the negotiations it would be stupid for me to state that. However, it would seem clear that no compromise = no jobs. I am all for the workers rights but to be completely unwilling to compromise is not the proper approach.

No. 11

Gruffalo wrote: »

With all due respect, I said a compromise is an essential part of negotiation. I didn't say what that compromise should be and considering I am not involved in the negotiations it would be stupid for me to state that. However, it would seem clear that no compromise = no jobs. I am all for the workers rights but to be completely unwilling to compromise is not the proper approach.

I don't accept that this is necessarily so. I understand where you're coming from but, and it has been alluded to in previous posts by not just me, the workers here are in a very strong bargaining position if they choose to go that route.

For instance, there are contracts that still have to be fulfilled within a set period of time by Shannon or E6 risk being sued by their customers. We're talking about millions here.

De Beers cannot afford to be obstinate. This is the workers strength.

firesidechat

Don't flatter yourself, I'm quiet sure that E6 have covered all possable
angles and have an alternative plan ready to roll if shannon does indeed decide to take industrial action.E6 has been very good to the people of clare since the very first day they stepped foot in ireland.
As with many things in life,The good times don't last forever.
Personaly speaking if i was given the option of either a cut in wages or drawing the dole i would take my cut in pay.Half a loaf is better than no bread.
Jobs are nonexcistant at the moment ,and i would advise anyone thinking different to be very carefull.
Don't close the door to compromise.
It is the lesser of two evils.
Maybe getting a guarantee from management to revisit these issues if and when the global economy gets on it's feet again would help.It's a very hard decision for all E6 workers to make and i can only wish the very best of luck to all involved.

Max001

I was told last year by people in E6 about another company, possibly in Limerick, that was in roughly the same scenario as E6 is now in Shannon.....Tomahawk or Mohawk or something sounding like that. Was three or four years ago. The company was losing money and was uncompetitive and the local management, at the point of closure, came up with a rescue plan. The workers, represented I was told by Mary O'Donnell of SIPTU (who's the lead employee negotiator in the E6 case) voted down the rescue package to keep the plant open and in favour of holding out for better redundancy terms than were offered. The US parent company pulled the plug as threatened and the workers got a minimal redundancy package. Some of those guys ended up working at E6. Bit of a shame to be led up a dead end cul de sac by Mary twice in one lifetime wouldn't ya say?
Makes me wonder if and where reality comes into this. The position E6 is in now has been on the radar for ages and if you think the company won't close production and doesn't have contingency plans, you'd be very mistaken.
If you're in SIPTU, the next time you bend over and feel a pain in the rear, that'll be Mary O'Donnell f**king you in the ass!

croker95

No. 11 wrote: »

The OECD don't make their reports available for casual browsing afaik, but here's a report in the Indo on it:



And the CPI report from the CSO for June 2009 tells us that in the last 12 months the cost of...

Electricity is up 4.7%
Natural Gas is up 6.5%
Bottled Gas is up 10.1%
Solid Fuels is up 13.5%
Doctors Fees is up 2.2%
Dental Services is up 2.3%
Hospital Services is up 9.1%
Rail Transport is up 9.0%
Bus Fares is up 10.9%
Taxi Fares is up 8.2%
Primary Education is up 7.6%
Second Level Education is up 7.1%
Third Level Education is up 4.7%
Childcare is up 6.4%
Insurance is up 19.2%
and prices in Canteens are up 6.7%.

On top of that, the Harmonised Index of Consumer Prices increased by 1.8% between July 2007 and June of this year.

Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics:)......To be fair you have cherry picked items from the list to support your point of view but it is worth noting that the overall index is down 5.4% to the 12 months to June (with further prices decreases in electricity etc already announced)

However it is ridiculous to see hospital charges increasing by 9.1% in a year in which we are experiencing the worst recession in our history.

No. 11

The point I was making croker is that while the overall cost of living is falling, the cost of many items on which low income workers and their families spend a large portion of their income is actually rising. None of the above could be considered luxuries by any means.

clarecoco

No. 11 wrote: »

I don't accept that this is necessarily so. I understand where you're coming from but, and it has been alluded to in previous posts by not just me, the workers here are in a very strong bargaining position if they choose to go that route.

For instance, there are contracts that still have to be fulfilled within a set period of time by Shannon or E6 risk being sued by their customers. We're talking about millions here.

De Beers cannot afford to be obstinate. This is the workers strength.

Turning this down is a big decision by the workers. I doubt if the workers are in a strong position considering a week ago virtually all jobs were gone. If contracts are to be broken the numbercrunchers will do the sums and add up the cost of additional redundancy payments per worker as opposed to shutting down and paying a million or 2 of a penalty for not fulfilling a contract.

For example every additional €10k for a 100 workers costs any business €1 million. If it closes giving 300 workers an additional €10k above statutory will cost E6 €3 million - not to talk of the multiples of that figure expected by Union members.

Do the maths they are unlikely to stay at any cost as even giving additional redundancy payments now is going to cost several million. Also there does not seem to be any support from workers or Union so it may be an easy decision to just close down and take the loss. I think we can all see the headlines now "Intransigent Union causes factory to close down" so the media war is already won by the company.

I understand the company is making huge profits particularly in countries where the wages are 1/10th of Irish wage norms. The numbercrunchers will factor this in also.

Voice_of_Reason

One wonders why Siptu are only interested in getting a better redundancy deal rather that working to retain 170 jobs? Jobs are hard to come by - has Mary O'Donnell 170 new jobs lined up in Shannon for those that she is now risking. A compromise is needed or E6 will take their business elsewhere like some multinationals have done in the past and many more will do in the future. Nothing is to be gained by the posturing that Siptu are engaing in now but there is a lot to be lost and posturing does not pay the household bills!

Max001

Voice_of_Reason wrote: »

One wonders why Siptu are only interested in getting a better redundancy deal rather that working to retain 170 jobs? Jobs are hard to come by - has Mary O'Donnell 170 new jobs lined up in Shannon for those that she is now risking. A compromise is needed or E6 will take their business elsewhere like some multinationals have done in the past and many more will do in the future. Nothing is to be gained by the posturing that Siptu are engaing in now but there is a lot to be lost and posturing does not pay the household bills!

Like most issues, I'd guess theres more than one reason, however SIPTU branch officials are always conscious of the national adgenda.....which is no dilution of workers rights and terms and conditions......as well as securing jobs.....though seemingly at times the two can be mutually exclusive. Their national perspective would be that if they agree a dramatic lowering of previously extremely generous E6 redundancy terms in Shannon, other employers will seek to use this against them elsewhere in the country. Its a balance between the interests of the E6 workers and SIPTU members nationally.

Its only my own personal opinion, however I believe SIPTU would sacrifice the E6 workers in a heartbeat and seek to blame the company, in the interests of not setting a precedent of an employer with Rolls Royce redundancy terms negotiating a lower package and re-engaging employees on lesser Ts & Cs, because this is completely at odds with their ideology. Ideology and politics are a big factor in this dispute and its these factors that may win out over the practicalities of saving sustainable jobs.

Don't get me wrong, I value the hard won advances in working conditions that unions have won and respect their role in balancing employer power, however families can't pay their mortgages with ideology and the 'never give an inch', open hostility and contempt that Mary O'Donnell displays in dealings with employers is a throwback to Mao's Red Guards or Hilter's Gestapo......'our truth is the only truth and anything else is heresy.'

Voice_of_Reason

To summarise what is being said- Siptu are using the E6 situation for the greater good of Siptu not the workers there - they have seized an opportunity to come out of the widerness that the Celtic Tiger banished them to and are working it 100%.
I feel sorry for the people in E6 that will lose their jobs however the perception that Siptu is creating of the workforce there will not help them finding new ones. E6 will retain 170 or so of the 370 jobs that were effectively gone a week ago - this must be worth in excess of 10 million to the local economy which Shannon, Clare and Limerick badly needs. What can be done to positively help this along?

Max001

Being realistic, only the intervention of someone very senior in government with local interest like the Defence Minister and thats not very likely as I'd guess politicians have a sense of the likely outcome, so will keep this clusterf**k at arms length.

Gruffalo

No. 11 wrote: »

I don't accept that this is necessarily so. I understand where you're coming from but, and it has been alluded to in previous posts by not just me, the workers here are in a very strong bargaining position if they choose to go that route.

For instance, there are contracts that still have to be fulfilled within a set period of time by Shannon or E6 risk being sued by their customers. We're talking about millions here.

De Beers cannot afford to be obstinate. This is the workers strength.

I would be shocked if a large organisation like E6 did not have a contingency plan to deal with this sort of thing.

irishturkey

There is a hell of a lot of tripe being written here. E6 employees would have been quite happy to take a pay cut and try to increase productivity... but we weren't asked to do that. We've been on 50% pay for the last two months, and 66% for three months previous to that. So if we had been asked to go back on full time with a 20% pay cut, we'd have gladly accepted. But that option was never put to us. We, the workers are more than open to compromise, as long as its honest and transparent with no hidden agendas and clauses. But the fact of the matter is, we don't believe we should have to reapply for our jobs. They first announced there was 370 to go, but then "saved" 163 jobs. Thats 207 that they need to go. Last January they got rid of 150 but had another 70 or 80 people on a waiting list should another package become available. Now with all their latest fannying around, they've pee'd off so many people that they'd easily get up to 150 or more to go voluntarily... given the right package!!

When they got rid of those people in January, one man applied but was refused. A couple of weeks later he was told his section would be moving to Germany and if he wasn't going to go, there was no job for him. What sense does that make? Are we honestly supposed to believe that a major company the size of E6 just "made a mistake" when they announced 370 jobs were gone? If thats to be believed, then it makes a mockery of CEO Cyrus Jilla and his board of directors for being so short sighted. But it isn't to be believed. It was a ploy to drive people out on miserly redundancy packages.

Yesterday we went in for the union meeting to decide what course of action should be taken. There was a letter waiting or each employee from General Manager Ken Sullivan. In it he blatantly lied as management have seen fit to do throughout this dispute. He claimed that there had been talks with non union representatives and managers. Our meeting got started and one of the first speakers was the "leader" of the non union group. He said there had been no dialogue between them and management. Its divide and conquer tactics being employed by the company now. They're playing dirty. When they announced the 150 jobs gone in November Sullivan stood in front of us, his lip quivering like it was a heatbraking decision. Now that we've (finally) started to stand up for ourselves he's become confrontational and more aggressive... like the pitbull he has running Human Resources.

As for Mohawk, I don't know the ins and outs of what happened there so I won't comment, unlike many are doing here. What role Mary O Donnell played in its closure I also know nothing about. What I will say about her is this. I don't like her. I find her approach to union members abrasive and arrogant but the fact is she's only doing what we tell her to do. She has given no direction to us whatsoever. In fact its a sleight on here that she's shown no leadership at all. I believe she enjoys throwing verbal volleys at management whethere its a meaningful contribution or not. But as I say, she's only following our orders so to blame here for whats happening is wide of the mark.

This is the bit that really gets me... our almighty saviour, the moustachioed one himself, Willie O' feckin Dea. Our representatives met with Marian Harkin MEP a couple of weeks ago in the Green Isle hotel on the Ennis Road in Limerick. She had a conference room booked, she knew the intricacies of what were going on and had done her homework. In contrast, the Minister in all his wisdom, met our reps in the hotel lobby... for 15 minutes and finished up with "I'll see what I can do".

I've personally emailed the Tanaiste... a week and a half ago and have yet to receive a reply. This government know they're up that infamous creek without a paddle. They know they're gone in the next election and as far as I can see they're sitting back and letting things play out.

Again I can only ask people to get facts before commenting. I understand everyone is entitled to their opinion but its incredibly frustrating to have people making remarks that have little or knowledge behind them.

Max001

Hi IrishTurkey

I want to apologise unreservedly if anything I've said here is inaccurate. Nor would I take issue with anything you've said here
and thank you for taking time, during a very difficult period, to correct any inaccuracies here.

I've seen crossed wires and misunderstandings as well as distrust adversely effect many negotiations in the past, that could have been
resolved better and faster, with less anguish all round. I sincerely hope that this isn't happening on this occasion because the people who will pay for it will be the employees.

irishturkey

Max001 wrote: »

Hi IrishTurkey

I want to apologise unreservedly if anything I've said here is inaccurate. Nor would I take issue with anything you've said here
and thank you for taking time, during a very difficult period, to correct any inaccuracies here.

I've seen crossed wires and misunderstandings as well as distrust adversely effect many negotiations in the past, that could have been
resolved better and faster, with less anguish all round. I sincerely hope that this isn't happening on this occasion because the people who will pay for it will be the employees.

Thanks Max001, I don't want to come across as being confrontational, its just, as I say, it gets frustrating to be portrayed negatively by the media and have people believe the spin.

clarecoco

Previous posts mentioned the Mohawk company closure. The following is a reminder of what happened from RTE news website Wednesday, 22 August 07.

A Shannon based company Mohawk Europa, which employs 92 workers announced its closure.The Company, was based in Shannon since 1963, had incurred losses over the previous months, due to higher production costs and a strong euro. In July 2007 it had proposed job saving measures and a survival plan which included seeking redundancies from the beginning of August of that year. The measures were rejected by the workforce. Subsequent talks at the Labour Relations Court also broke down.
The company then closed and appointed a liquidator.

Another example is the Gateaux bakery dispute in Finglas in Dublin in 1990. This group of workers had not had a strike for as long as anyone could remember. The company threatened closure but the workers believed it was a threat that would not be followed through. Within days they were illegally occupying their workplace, holding a 16 week occupation.

The company did not change its position and it remained closed with the loss of all jobs.

irishturkey

*bangs head against wall*